Improving the Arelith Community.

[Vincent]

Maybe I'm getting old or something but I'm pretty sure before Discord there was Skype, Steam, IM etc. A program isn't the problem, it's the players, and if the problem is so rampant throughout the community that it's spurring threads like this, nothing is going to change much short of a full-blown reset. That can't and won't happen of course, so I don't know what can possibly be done other than encouraging people to be positive, kind to their fellow players, to avoid metagaming like the plague, to utilise Discord as any sensible and intelligent person should, and to maybe play something else for a while if Arelith is doing nothing but breeding negative thoughts.

[Nitro]

-Snip-

Have you considered, when venting, not boasting about how you reported a person in the very chat you were venting in and posting the screenshot of the conversation with the DM when you didn't get your way?

[Scurvy Cur]

Chances are the thing likely to get someone in serious trouble with the DM team are not mass reports for a single infraction, but mass infections that get reported.

The team knows how to tell the difference.

[Kreydis]

Maybe I'm getting old or something but I'm pretty sure before Discord there was Skype, Steam, IM etc.

Discord is far more widespread and way more used then the previous examples. How people managed to RP while being in voice chat confuses me to this day. My point is more of a, "I can't trust myself with the power to be in a discord group for a faction. Why would I trust you to have that power?" type of situation.

[AskRyze]

Maybe I'm getting old or something but I'm pretty sure before Discord there was Skype, Steam, IM etc.

Discord is far more widespread and way more used then the previous examples. How people managed to RP while being in voice chat confuses me to this day. My point is more of a, "I can't trust myself with the power to be in a discord group for a faction. Why would I trust you to have that power?" type of situation.

One's lack of self-control should not hamper everyone else; if someone drinks themselves to an early grave, one does not ban alcohol. If one eats themselves to morbidity, one does not make legally enforced portion sizes. An individual's inability to make judgements or control their actions should not impact someone else's free will and ability to choose what they do. If you cannot trust yourself, do not force that onto others; other people might have the self-control to keep themselves from metagaming and the presence of mind to separate IC drama from OOC reactions.



This isn't an attack on you by any means. This is a statement and an argument that has had really scary real world implications in the past. Saying 'I can't handle this responsibility so therefore no one should be allowed to try to take on that responsibility' is a slippery slope and leads to problems.

[Kreydis]

One's lack of self-control should not hamper everyone else; if someone drinks themselves to an early grave, one does not ban alcohol. If one eats themselves to morbidity, one does not make legally enforced portion sizes. An individual's inability to make judgements or control their actions should not impact someone else's free will and ability to choose what they do. If you cannot trust yourself, do not force that onto others; other people might have the self-control to keep themselves from metagaming and the presence of mind to separate IC drama from OOC reactions.

This isn't an attack on you by any means. This is a statement and an argument that has had really scary real world implications in the past. Saying 'I can't handle this responsibility so therefore no one should be allowed to try to take on that responsibility' is a slippery slope and leads to problems.

Nope, perfectly fine to point that out. You're entirely correct in saying, just because I can't trust myself, it doesn't mean we should strip the option away.

However in this case, it seems every single other day it's so so did x in discord which led to y in game. So to say, while many people may be using it responsibly. Plenty of people are using it irresponsibly. Or at least enough people feel that we are. Which leads back to, what in the nine hells can we possibly do to mitigate this? Or is it something people want to see changed. But the DM team already responded that they've no plans or desire to enforce it. So it's really a moot point honestly. (Outside of people taking screencaps and reporting bad behavior.)

[Queen Titania]

Please remain civil. I've already locked one thread today. This isn't soap box, but feedback. Stay constructive and polite. Offending messages have been deleted and will be delivered warnings.

[Hin_Justice]

I feel like the conversation has been derailed some and understandably. I myself reconnected with a player I knew from 10 years ago, on Arelith. And he said something that got me thinking - I was still holding a grudge from being cyberbullied from one of the RP circles from back in the day. I will not go into detail because it is still really painful for me to talk about, but rather I will explain to those that have never been bullied, to help them understand why it's hard to forget and with some victims, hard to forgive...

You want to be part of something. You want to have fun. You play an online RPG because, well... you want to be what you always dreamed of being. As an escape. And eventually, you make friends.

Then for whatever reason, your group of online friends decides to make fun of you. A good Samaritan in the group informs you what is going on. So you try hard to fix mistakes or flaws, or even flaws your frenemies in that circle think you have. And at the end of the day, you are tired emotionally and physically because you're not making the cut. And the teasing hurts and makes you bitter and sad when no one really wants to acknowledge what's going on.

So here's where I circle it back to the question of, "How to Improve Arelith as a Community?"

Report the bullies - I do it in a hot-second now. Call me a fink, but I will not let negative behavior rule how I feel. Which leads into reporting the people breaking the rules. Report known, pre-planned plots you know are being metagame by a collective of people OOCly. No group of players conspiring OOC to keep powers or make sure those powers only go to your group - should be tolerated. It's like playing in the sandbox. Every kid eventually should get the shovel.

Be a good player and member of this community. Be a role model. Help point people to the right materials to read if they don't know lore. Don't make fun of them or tell them they are "Playing it Wrong". Don't ignore people because you don't like how they RP. Be polite and civil.

And be open to allow others into your specific RP circles. As fun as it is to RP with friends, I can tell you from experience that letting new blood into that circle keeps things from getting stale. So be willing to step out of your comfort zone.

I personally hate the Cordor RP. Nothing to do with anyone OOC either. But when I get pulled in, I deal with it. I add to the RP. Don't be afraid to try new things on this server. If you aren't willing to be a positive force for this community, at the end of the day, in my opinion, you are probably playing on the wrong server.

[DM Atropos]

Even a DM in this thread called people "malicious" for filing reports that were in all likelihood just pointing out actual violations of the rules. It seems highly unlikely to me someone would file a report saying something like, "Ban this person because I don't like them." In fact people on this server seem very hesitant to report unless something shady is actually going on. When the DM's put negative labels on you for reporting and dismiss your concerns entirely then why bother? The fact Duravayas still gets flak for a report that happened years ago speaks volumes.

I do hope that this changes eventually. For now I'm bowing out and seeking my fun elsewhere.

Using OOC communication to coordinate mass reporting of a single individual is definitely a thing and it puts serious pressure on the DM team to ban that said single individual.

You can literally have a hundred and forty people tell us to ban someone. Unless they *do* something, as verifiable by logs and evidence, you're in for a bad time. that's not how this works.

And yes. Not breaking rules but destroying fun for others can get you banned. And it will. But it still requires us, impartially, to be able to *see it happening*.

[DM Chatsworth]

Even a DM in this thread called people "malicious" for filing reports that were in all likelihood just pointing out actual violations of the rules. It seems highly unlikely to me someone would file a report saying something like, "Ban this person because I don't like them." In fact people on this server seem very hesitant to report unless something shady is actually going on. When the DM's put negative labels on you for reporting and dismiss your concerns entirely then why bother? The fact Duravayas still gets flak for a report that happened years ago speaks volumes.

I do hope that this changes eventually. For now I'm bowing out and seeking my fun elsewhere.

Using OOC communication to coordinate mass reporting of a single individual is definitely a thing and it puts serious pressure on the DM team to ban that said single individual.

You can literally have a hundred and forty people tell us to ban someone. Unless they *do* something, as verifiable by logs and evidence, you're in for a bad time. that's not how this works.

And yes. Not breaking rules but destroying fun for others can get you banned. And it will. But it still requires us, impartially, to be able to *see it happening*.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I am not accusing people of being banned without evidence. I am simply saying that it puts /pressure/ on the DM team that if a violation did occur to take action about it. A good example would be the current faction pvp rules, which are so convoluted and confusing people are accidentally violating it left and right.

But this isn't the direction I would want this thread to take regardless. I mostly would hope this thread helps remind people to be excellent to one another and reach out to the opposition OOCly. Knowing the person from an OOC perspective helps remind you how they're probably another fun loving guy just like you.

[Lady Astray]

If you manage to step in 140 people's cornflakes you probably need banned from the breakfast club. Just saying.

[Aftond]

I think many issues stem from being so IC that you feel slighted on a personal level when something you dont agree with happens to your character.

This tends to escalate to OOC business instead of keeping it IC. Learning to take defeats in any manner is hard, especially when you are super invested in whatever is happening.

How far this OOC escalates when it comes to Discord servers changes on a person to person basis. In general I think its beneficial to have a place to express frustrations instead of keeping to yourself, and having it influence whatever you are doing IC.

[Liareth]

I wonder how the "DM team is untrustworthy" perception might change if the appeals process was made public. I see this a lot in other games (not so much in NWN though); if you get banned, you can post a public appeal with your side of the story, allowing everyone relevant to the case to discuss it openly and transparently. I bet there would be a whole lot less "I got banned unjustly by the DM team" flying around if that were the case. Taking the idea further, it would be cool if there was a public log of DM actions (warning, notells, ban, items spawned, exp given, exp taken, etc). I'd even extend it to RPR adjustment but I understand that Arelith's RPR culture probably isn't ready for that sort of thing yet.

[Lady Astray]

I don't think the issue is people feeling like they were banned unjustly. The problem is certain players seem to get a free pass to break the rules, metagame, and generally ruin everyone else's experience through their IC actions. If anything the DM's are too lax. From what I gather that is the general perception among players. Certain veterans who are established in the community can basically get away with anything and the moment they might face IC consequences for their actions the DM's step in and rain hellballs on everyone for daring to fight back against them. A DM literally called 140 players malicious for filing reports in this thread. That should be a huge red flag. Whenever I criticize other players OOCly for their actions I get told to "Play Nice." or "Have faith/trust in your fellow players." Calling 140 players malicious for filing a report doesn't seem very nice and isn't having faith in those players. I have been warned today for much less.

When everyone addresses the (obvious) elephant in the room I think we can move on. Until then it will be more sweeping the evidence under the rug and trying to maintain the status quo.

[Marsi]

3. PvP incidents without adequate storyline or character interaction is taking place at a higher rate.

I feel it should be said that the striving to avoid PvP and conflict at all costs is an equally toxic force and something that is far more of a phenomenon than, say, two years ago.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of times when FOIG is pretty cool but when it extends to pretty much all information there is about what is happening on the server including the real of public history of kingdoms, factions, events and such, PvP between disagreeing groups also becomes an information war. With no Out-of-game base to build narratives together, as players instead of as our characters, all in-game information becomes weaponised and general attitude of the server becomes toxic or apathetic, or both.
Since new players have no way of accessing information OOC'LY all veterans with an axe to grind will want to paint their own particular group in the best light possible while demonizing their opponents as much as possible, and new players will basically have to adopt whatever particular vendettas are pushed on them if they want to join factions.

As I see it:
- When our only way of discovering or driving a narrative is In-character only, our Out-of-game reactions also tend to follow our In-character views. I'm sure even the best of us can recognise having had an IC conflict bleed into OOC, or the other way around.

-Without any sort of OOC documentation on factions and events (say, a forum where faction members can post about their particular group) all information becomes potential fake news and nothing is held to any sort of standard.

What I think might help:
- Give the players an OOC venue on the forums for promoting factions and groups, and documenting big in-game events. Encourage the use of this, and cooperative efforts from both sides of a given conflict. Have a DM or two give this project some extra attention as with the current toxicity of the server, some people might need a bit of handholding

arelith.com/ea

It's not the centralized history breakdown you're asking for, but I don't think that could ever work given the multitude of different view points on every note of history and the pure immensity of it. The "information war" you speak of seems like ordinary human behaviour and par for the course for IC conflicts. I do wish players had more concern for IC history, but the truth is most are too busy living/making it than writing it down, and those who do both are few and far between. That's the unfortunate truth -- it's not that vets are hogging the history books, it's that not many care about history or precedent unless it explicitly empowers their character (in which case its as good as gold). Piece of advice though, if you want to reclaim a narrative IC, it's surprisingly potent to simply start writing your take down. Given the dearth of historians those few who do bother have the enormous privilege of setting the narrative however they please. Sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword...

---

I couldn't say where this schismatic culture has come from. I feel like blaming Discord is too simple. Nor could the problem be EE, the major fueding parties caught in a culture clash I've come to know predate it. I think Irongron's new directive for the team is a sound decision though, and we will see how it changes server culture soon enough. I'm pleased to know that the enjoyment (and sometimes and even safety) of well behaved players is now a higher priority than the rehabilitation of problem players. It's a policy that I've felt held Arelith back, and now that it's been reviewed I'm genuinely excited for the future.

[Mr_Rieper]

I think there are three main issues here:

The first is something I've noticed after taking a break, and returning from that break. It's very difficult to settle in to the server these days without an OOC group, from my experience. For me, it was introducing a friend to the server, and having him reminding me to log in and go adventuring with his characters. It's also very important to form a starting point for a new faction. If you're just an individual, walking around and asking for people to join, chances are most people won't want to join a tiny faction.

OOC friends tend to be more invested, on the same wavelength as you for RP and tend to be more trustworthy in having a faction succeed, rather than undermining it or crashing it.

I think this need for OOC friends to get rolling on the server is both a symptom of and a contributing factor to the IC social disconnect in settlements and cities. Which brings me to my second issue, the lack of respect between players. It's the entire reason for and foundation of the "Be Nice" rule, which is to have players respect one another even if they are opponents IC. It's extremely common these days for players to treat each other with outright contempt and hostility, never giving an inch to them in RP and even extending to hostile interactions over Discord or forums. It's fine for characters to not have any respect for each other. But for players, this means less interaction, less roleplay and more PvP. The simple truth is, players do not trust each other. And without trust, they can't respect each other either. Nobody knows what to expect because abusive behaviour is so common. And it actually all boils down to its simplest, singular issue:

The trust on the server is breaking down.

I'm going to address some specific examples here, because I believe it's necessary. The roundabout way of things, beating around the bush, doesn't actually solve anything.

The abusive players and cliques on the server have developed reputations for it. People know, people avoid them. Either they are true and they are not dealt with - which causes the trust for the server staff to crumble - or they are not true, and the slander is allowed to continue. It's a natural social function for communities to want to reject people who are harmful presences, so the longer they are seen as harmful, the more damage is done.

The general attitude of the DMs. Now don't get me wrong, there are a handful of DMs that I absolutely adore, and I DO understand that the entire team faces a lot of frustration on a daily basis. However, nobody can deny that sometimes the DMs are very, very unhelpful. There's a haughty, aloof attitude that has developed, sometimes even outright contempt towards players. Players need to be reminded that DMs are volunteer members of the community, who give of their free time and aren't worthy of their churlishness or spite for simply performing their role. But some of the DMs need to be reminded of their voluntary contributions as well. And no, this will not always get reported to Spyre or Littleweasel because, believe it or not, people take issue with their approach to problem solving as well. Reports should be forthcoming, yes, but they do not automatically solve problems or create instant catharsis either.

Reporting does not solve everything. Receiving a pat on the head and being told that "things are being looked into" while abusive players are kicking sand in people's faces and the DM who showed up is sneering at you does. Not. Help. Yes, these incidents happen rarely, no this was not something that happened to me directly and yes, I am addressing the circumstances that create these incidents rather than the incidents themselves. Don't simply dismiss it, address it. We are all human beings, and we all want to be able to trust one another.

Also, please stop locking threads for minor incidents. It's so easy for one person to say something mildly concerning and the whole thread gets locked because it might offend some delicate sensibilities. If you want to help the community, find out what is actually bothering these players, or remove them from the community. Don't just keep sweeping the negative attitudes under the carpet, they are likely created out of frustration more than anything else. A happy, thriving community will self regulate if people can trust and learn to respect one another.

If we are on the forums to talk, then let us talk. Heated discussion can be productive. If something completely unsalvageable, think twice before locking it. Panicking and locking threads because they might become heated just disappoints the rest of the silent lurkers who might be looking for an answer themselves. If many people seem to be frustrated about something, address it and let them talk to you about it. Don't just lock it down.

[DM Atropos]

I wonder how the "DM team is untrustworthy" perception might change if the appeals process was made public. I see this a lot in other games (not so much in NWN though); if you get banned, you can post a public appeal with your side of the story, allowing everyone relevant to the case to discuss it openly and transparently. I bet there would be a whole lot less "I got banned unjustly by the DM team" flying around if that were the case. Taking the idea further, it would be cool if there was a public log of DM actions (warning, notells, ban, items spawned, exp given, exp taken, etc). I'd even extend it to RPR adjustment but I understand that Arelith's RPR culture probably isn't ready for that sort of thing yet.

It's not. And more to the point, I think most people could agree that, right or wrong, they would not want their dirty laundry, so to speak, hung for all to see. People who complain about lack of transparency never put themselves in the place of "Would I want all my friends to know I did X?"
Because in reality? Nearly every player has, at some point, done something against the rules. A lot of us (yes, remember. DMs are players too) have been coached, counseled, or punished. Many have not been caught. Some have not been caught yet. But I don't think every person wants everyone to know what they get up to on their less than good days.

I know I wouldn't.

[Lady Astray]

I for one am fine with people seeing my dirty laundry. Mainly because I don't flagrantly break rules or anything. But for people who regularly wet the bed or leave skid-marks in their undies, I can understand why they don't want their dirty laundry aired. Thing is, this policy only shelters people who wet the bed or crap their pantaloons on a regular basis, rather than encourage them to do better. I'm speaking in metaphors of course, nothing against people who are actually incontinent for medical reasons. But as I stated in a previous post, the people who seem to be the most opposed to Discord and other OOC forms of communication, are the ones who break the rules most often. Because it sheds a light on their behavior. I don't have anything to hide. If the DM's want to publish every report ever made against me, that's fine.

[Kreydis]

But as I stated in a previous post, the people who seem to be the most opposed to Discord and other OOC forms of communication, are the ones who break the rules most often.

Funny of you to say that. Because I feel it's the opposite. Discords and other mass means of ooc communication are tools to encourage bad behavior.

I know you're not blaming me, but even with how few 'coaching' sessions and the few temporary bans / warnings I've received, I've taken them to heart to learn from. I don't think I'd be here if everything was out in the public. It's a bit embarrassing, and people can, will, and do use everything they can to shame others. But that's besides the point.

What it really boils down to is even if we feel someone needs to change, and maybe the DM's do agree or not. We just aren't seeing the effects as of right now. Hence Mr_Rieper's wonderful post. Everyone is losing trust in each other, and this is a very dangerous thing for a community that NEEDS IT for most stories to thrive.

Also Astray, I agree with a lot of your points, but I think you need to relax the tone of your posts a bit. They've been coming off rather hostile, and even if you were taunted earlier, your points are lost when people think you're just angry.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Thing is, this policy only shelters people who wet the bed or crap their pantaloons on a regular basis, rather than encourage them to do better.

I can only assume there are a great number of reports and situations which fly about that have very real privacy and confidentiality issues surrounding them, and in a great many of these it might be that nobody involved has actually broken the rules.

We could imagine any number of these:

- The breakdown of an RL relationship in which both partners play the game, things get messy, reports start flying.
- Breaches of the rules spawned of very real mental illness.
- English-as-a-second-or-third-language leading to humiliating misunderstanding.

These people probably don't need to be shamed. Wouldn't you agree?

Further, I would not be so swift to assume one's own saint-like innocence. While I've never been hauled up in front of the DMs for anything, I believe it likely I've accidentally done a few questionable things.

Or worse, maybe a good number of the times I have reported another player for a perceived breach of the rules on their part, I have been operating on some wild and incredibly stupid misunderstanding myself.

While none of these situations could be deemed malicious, I think it is respectful towards your fellow humans to allow for a few mistakes to simply be handled behind the curtain of privacy and confidentiality. I don't want to see every time you've reported someone and been hilariously wrong about it splashed across my screen. I prefer to spend my time believing you're not chronically incorrect or daft.

[Liareth]

I wonder how the "DM team is untrustworthy" perception might change if the appeals process was made public. I see this a lot in other games (not so much in NWN though); if you get banned, you can post a public appeal with your side of the story, allowing everyone relevant to the case to discuss it openly and transparently. I bet there would be a whole lot less "I got banned unjustly by the DM team" flying around if that were the case. Taking the idea further, it would be cool if there was a public log of DM actions (warning, notells, ban, items spawned, exp given, exp taken, etc). I'd even extend it to RPR adjustment but I understand that Arelith's RPR culture probably isn't ready for that sort of thing yet.

It's not. And more to the point, I think most people could agree that, right or wrong, they would not want their dirty laundry, so to speak, hung for all to see. People who complain about lack of transparency never put themselves in the place of "Would I want all my friends to know I did X?"
Because in reality? Nearly every player has, at some point, done something against the rules. A lot of us (yes, remember. DMs are players too) have been coached, counseled, or punished. Many have not been caught. Some have not been caught yet. But I don't think every person wants everyone to know what they get up to on their less than good days.

I know I wouldn't.

That's the point, I think. People would be less likely to break the server rules if they knew that they wouldn't be able to hide it from their friends. Less time would be wasted on appeals from problem players because public humiliation awaits them, and, consequently, fewer problem players would return to chase away good players. The DM team would be held publicly accountable for their actions, which would have the bonus effect of increasing the level of trust that players have for DM decisions. Seems like a win-win to me. It would especially be great if DM notes were made public once a case had been closed, but sensitive information (e.g. IC plot stuff) was redacted.

Of course, that's just a hypothetical. I can't see it realistically happening. But I can imagine a utopia of complete transparency. I'm (un?)lucky enough to peek behind the curtains, so I know what the DM team deals with and mostly I agree with their methods. To a regular player, the process can be frustratingly, and at times bafflingly, opaque.

[Vincent]

Speaking from my personal experience, I reported a player whom I knew had very much broken the rules and acted in a very irresponsible way. They still run about the game to this day, and I have no knowledge of whether they ever received punishment for what they did. I can see no positive gain from not providing me (and those similar to me) further information on what decision was taken; the example I see given above of them being "humiliated" because English might not be their native language seems utterly alien to me. If that happened to be the case, and I was informed no action was taken as it was determined they made their mistake because of a lack of comprehension, I would be utterly fine with it and perhaps even forgive the player OOC for what was without a doubt a case of griefing.

Arelith isn't at war, there's no need for this degree of secrecy. All I foresee is more players upset, no one happy, and an even greater rise of conspiracies questioning the competence and integrity of DMs all due to the misguided notion that keeping players utterly oblivious is somehow a good idea. Players don't need to know the nuance and fine minutae of every decision made, but a simple "yes, we banned him," or "we are investigating this case" could go miles.

[Aodh Lazuli]

The RP community I was part of and adminned for half a decade before coming here (notably not an NWN community, but it has enough similarities to be relevant), had the following systems:

- The Admins/DMs (the role was one and the same there), were known by the same names as they played under.
- All admin actions taken against players who breached the rules were posted publicly., along with some details of the infraction itself.

This had the following results:

- People endlessly screaming the admins were corrupt.

- People endlessly contesting their punishment, despite CLEARLY being in the wrong.

- Endless and utterly nauseating rules-lawyering, self righteous, superior, trash being spewed daily into public places.

- Massive and irreconcilable tribalism and factionalism to the severe detriment of community cohesion.

- Most departing players doing so under a cloud of rage, fury, and deleted forum posts filled with four letter words.

- More and more frequent and flagrant breaches of the rules, often from repeat offenders circumventing bans (while the methods to do so were widely circulated by those who were bitter and angry about having had their wrongdoings splashed about before the crowd - forcing people to enter into a publicly antagonistic relationship with the DMs/Admins).

- Shameless and obnoxious brown-nosing of those in positions of authority.

- Massive staff turnover, due to people getting phenomenally stressed.



Be careful what you wish for, those of you who are advocating complete transparency.

[Vincent]

Sounds no different to how Arelith's faring. I guess I can only advocate for the human condition to improve.