Accountability

[darthkitteh]

2 Cents on the DMs being players bit:

Id also like to address spyre claiming that the DMs should be allowed to be players.. sure. Why not. Just don't let them hold office, or control election proceedings, or influence the story in the sandbox you claim the server is...
So far the DMs I have known to be PCs in game have been rumored to not only having affected the large amount of player stories by stealing elections, but also join certain groups and factions because their friends were on said factions.

I do not think that any DM should have any restrictions on how they get to be a player.
Being a DM is a volenteer job.

Being said, no DM should use the OOC advantage to improve their position/power of their character. That is the same as a player exploiting a bug, or using OOC info to do the same.
If this ever happened, then im sure it would come down to the lead dm and team to decide on a fitting punishment, or expulsion of a DM commiting this.

[Sockss]

I have approached spyre on multiple occassions telling him while I do not play on the server, my friends are here and as me to represent them because I speak my mind and,I have no fear of being silenced becuase of my views. Those that silence only prove that they fear what the other has to say, so the saying goes. Approaching him to express concerns and met with "everything is fine, move along"

Well I will tell you everything is not fine, you know it, I know it, and those of us that do know it are jealous of those that do not know.

You seem awfully sure about how things are for someone who does not play on the server. Do you mean to say that you have 100% accountable proof of these things or just the word of good friends that feel wronged? Perhaps some screenshots showing individual conversations or parts of a conversation?

This I feel is the crux of a lot of issues.

People seem to lose their ability to identify bias when they're reading some buddies in a discord server going off about something.

On the one hand I'd like DM's to post evidence and info on the forums for each case to put this rubbish to bed, because it'd stop people gaslighting OOC'ly - but I can understand the reasons they don't.

I seen proof of a UD player getting banned unfairly on discord.

But i also played on rp servers for some years now and know that all of them have some form of coruption so i just do my thing and try to get my rp fix and have fun...cous i dont know how to try and change it.

Things like this don't help at all, what you have seen is what a player wants to show you, which is never going to be the whole story and is going to be used to lead you to a conclusion.

If the player felt it was a problem they would have complained and if they did then the entirety of the staff and admins would have to be on board with the 'unfair' banning - which just doesn't seem at all likely. And honestly, if it was? Why would your friend want to play here? Why would the team let him if they really disliked him that much? Why would he be trying to convince anyone he'd done nothing wrong?

[Zed]

I have approached spyre on multiple occassions telling him while I do not play on the server, my friends are here and as me to represent them because I speak my mind and,I have no fear of being silenced becuase of my views. Those that silence only prove that they fear what the other has to say, so the saying goes. Approaching him to express concerns and met with "everything is fine, move along"

Well I will tell you everything is not fine, you know it, I know it, and those of us that do know it are jealous of those that do not know.

You seem awfully sure about how things are for someone who does not play on the server. Do you mean to say that you have 100% accountable proof of these things or just the word of good friends that feel wronged? Perhaps some screenshots showing individual conversations or parts of a conversation?

This I feel is the crux of a lot of issues.

People seem to lose their ability to identify bias when they're reading some buddies in a discord server going off about something.

On the one hand I'd like DM's to post evidence and info on the forums for each case to put this rubbish to bed, because it'd stop people gaslighting OOC'ly - but I can understand the reasons they don't.

Again not noting my response to the exact question kind of keeps you from being able to understand. I do. Infact have evidence of this. Hundreds of screenshots that have been given to me

[Zed]

I have approached spyre on multiple occassions telling him while I do not play on the server, my friends are here and as me to represent them because I speak my mind and,I have no fear of being silenced becuase of my views. Those that silence only prove that they fear what the other has to say, so the saying goes. Approaching him to express concerns and met with "everything is fine, move along"

Well I will tell you everything is not fine, you know it, I know it, and those of us that do know it are jealous of those that do not know.

You seem awfully sure about how things are for someone who does not play on the server. Do you mean to say that you have 100% accountable proof of these things or just the word of good friends that feel wronged? Perhaps some screenshots showing individual conversations or parts of a conversation?

This I feel is the crux of a lot of issues.

People seem to lose their ability to identify bias when they're reading some buddies in a discord server going off about something.

On the one hand I'd like DM's to post evidence and info on the forums for each case to put this rubbish to bed, because it'd stop people gaslighting OOC'ly - but I can understand the reasons they don't.[/code]

Again not noting my response to the exact question kind of keeps you from being able to understand. I do. Infact have evidence of this. Hundreds of screenshots that have been given to me

[DM Axis]

I love Arelith and I want it to succeed, but while this server is the DMs sandbox. The players are the sand and if you just treat us like our opinions don't matter, you'll lose a lot of great talent.

If you don't break the rules, you can play in the sand.
If you ignore or insult us, then we 'will not care about such an opinion'. But we do keep it in mind.

We are players too, we care greatly for the overall health of the server.
Sometimes that means being a referee, the rules are not hidden. If you are confused by the rules, ask.

We are volunteers too, when I was inducted into the DM Team expectations were set to remain objective.
But that also means having the ability to deny and say no too. However we always try to leave feedback where we are able.

And almost nothing of consequence is done in isolation. The entire Team is involved.

[DM Sollers]

Hello. I see that a doctored version of our conversations has been shared in your signature, Penwize. As you have waived confidentiality by providing a doctored screenshot, I am going to follow the example of transparency you have requested and share our private conversations from first message to last.


























(edited to remove unrelated character/player/Discord names)

(edited to remove unrelated character/player/Discord names)






I had faith in you. I am very disappointed.

Cheers.

[Nitro]

There is some delicious irony in there being a discussion about verifiable evidence and accountability, in which the OP has a doctored screenshot in their signature.

[questionable medical practices]

Hello, police? I'd like to report a murder.

[Zed]

Oh are we allowed now to call out players on the forums and podt screenshot evidence of wrongdoing?

Just asking

[Sockss]

Oh are we allowed now to call out players on the forums and podt screenshot evidence of wrongdoing?

Just asking

Hello. I see that a doctored version of our conversations has been shared in your signature, Penwize. As you have waived confidentiality by providing a doctored screenshot, I am going to follow the example of transparency you have requested and share our private conversations from first message to last.

Give it a rest.

[Nitro]

Oh are we allowed now to call out players on the forums and podt screenshot evidence of wrongdoing?

Just asking

If someone posts an edited conversation between yourself and them I think you'll get away with posting the unedited original.

[Nobs]

I seen proof of a UD player getting banned unfairly on discord.

But i also played on rp servers for some years now and know that all of them have some form of coruption so i just do my thing and try to get my rp fix and have fun...cous i dont know how to try and change it.

Things like this don't help at all, what you have seen is what a player wants to show you, which is never going to be the whole story and is going to be used to lead you to a conclusion.

If the player felt it was a problem they would have complained and if they did then the entirety of the staff and admins would have to be on board with the 'unfair' banning - which just doesn't seem at all likely. And honestly, if it was? Why would your friend want to play here? Why would the team let him if they really disliked him that much? Why would he be trying to convince anyone he'd done nothing wrong?
[/quote]

its actualy a very long and detailed report.

[Ork]

Interesting how everyone clamoring arelith is crumbling at the bits are really just perpetuating that climate. I have never had a bad interaction with the DM team, and honestly find it disturbing that people would twist their own interactions to shed a negative light on our administration team. I'm not surprised, but I am frustrated. This sort of behavior perpetuates a false sense of crisis, and people are vulnerable and susceptible to believing this kind of crap if they have no other basis for it to be untrue.

From my own personal interactions with the DM team, I think a lot of player frustration rests in how much you dissociate between the character you are playing and the person you are. I recall and have mentioned this before, but DM Wish posed a critical question to me when I was playing a drow that changed my entire perspective. At the time, I was defensive because I believed I was playing the drow character flawlessly, but sometimes an outside observer can see the whole picture more clearer. I am eternally grateful for Wish's comment since it served to improve me as a player.

In the end, I have a lot of faith and trust with the DM team. Certainly there are areas to be discussed, but the DMs genuinely care about Arelith, its players, and the progression of roleplay.

Take a step back, a deep breath, and really analyze if you're in the right here.

[Azensor]

just going to put my 2cent down on the signature.. reading the pm's it looked like they just cut out the extra fluff, because even reading it the dm's message is a response then there post is the answer to it.. but thats just how i see it.

Beyond that.. can we try to keep this on topic and abit idk.. healthy? could probably have a fair bit of discussion here if it doesnt get locked.

[TroubledWaters]

If you don't break the rules, you can play in the sand.
If you ignore or insult us, then we 'will not care about such an opinion'. But we do keep it in mind.

We are players too, we care greatly for the overall health of the server.
Sometimes that means being a referee, the rules are not hidden. If you are confused by the rules, ask.

We are volunteers too, when I was inducted into the DM Team expectations were set to remain objective.
But that also means having the ability to deny and say no too. However we always try to leave feedback where we are able.

And almost nothing of consequence is done in isolation. The entire Team is involved.

Hello!

On Wednesday I had asked you, specifically, in game for some clarification on a rule that I had apparently broken, and you responded by issuing me a 24 hour ban before any clarification was given.

That same day, I followed up on the forums with PMs to the DM team for clarification on two rules questions in what I believe was a constructive and respectful manner. I have not yet received a response.

If both IG and through PM are not good places to ask for clarifications on rules, then where is? The forums?

[DM Axis]

If you don't break the rules, you can play in the sand.
If you ignore or insult us, then we 'will not care about such an opinion'. But we do keep it in mind.

We are players too, we care greatly for the overall health of the server.
Sometimes that means being a referee, the rules are not hidden. If you are confused by the rules, ask.

We are volunteers too, when I was inducted into the DM Team expectations were set to remain objective.
But that also means having the ability to deny and say no too. However we always try to leave feedback where we are able.

And almost nothing of consequence is done in isolation. The entire Team is involved.

Hello!

On Wednesday I had asked you, specifically, in game for some clarification on a rule that I had apparently broken, and you responded by issuing me a 24 hour ban before any clarification was given.

That same day, I followed up on the forums with PMs to the DM team for clarification on two rules questions in what I believe was a constructive and respectful manner. I have not yet received a response.

If both IG and through PM are not good places to ask for clarifications on rules, then where is? The forums?

You failed to heed a DM request to clear off, which was facilitated server wide in a shout by DM Avalon Soul and myself.
Read rule number 5.

I will provide you a link http://arelith.com/
Which also states the following: "It is expected that all players will be familiar with the rules upon joining."

[TroubledWaters]

That request was made in reference specifically to the group outside- we were already inside at that point with a smaller group (three PCs) that previous rulings have said do not count as raids.

You then showed up to ask us to leave, and we did. That's behind me and all that, but my two main questions remain:

- What is the difference between "individual PvP" and a "raid"? Is it numbers? Planning? Story reasons?
- Are attacks on the Arcane Tower considered to be raids and should those be reported?

Thanks.

[Kreydis]

What needs to happen though is for the individuals, the factions, the teams - pretty much everyone - to look internally and ask: Am I doing what is right? What is fair and fun? If you can answer yes to all that, then you are doing amazing. But, if you can’t answer yes, then look to figuring out what you can do differently and improve from there.

I am aware there is a current group of players that are intending a “revolt” where they believe leaking information, making things public in Discord and Reddit will achieve change and push the current team out. It will not. What it will do is reveal your true nature, your true view of the server and it’s community and you will find yourself off the server.

Maybe if you responded to any of my messages, and given me or any other player any sign of good faith that the rules (Or even better, the fact that you don't have to break rules to be a negative influence and are not a good fit for the server) were being enforced equally, when the answer to your first paragraph (Snipped of course) which should be a resounding NO across all parties these days, then people wouldn't be so mad?

My messages aside which are laden with both accusations and genuine concerns of which you haven't even responded with a 'Yes I read it' like you said you wanted the DM team to respond to during the meeting. People are hurt on both sides, and they see only one side getting slapped, when I think I, and most other people would agree that everyone needs to be slapped straight across the face.

Moving on because I think it's pointless to talk to you, Sollers, what was the point of that? His signature was as harmless as a fly. You're disappointed in a player for acknowledging that hardships of the plot they're trying to make? Not only did you also release player's private discord's in the pictures as well, but you're disappointed? In what? That they would share a perfectly harmless snippit of a discord conversation?

You know what else isn't fun? This arbitrary ruling of NPCs. Will they protect you from a single player? No apparently. Will they protect you from 2 players because it's suddenly a raid? What constitutes a raid where the players can then be protected by DM's screaming to stop the consequences of IC actions?

[Ork]

People are hurt on both sides, and they see only one side getting slapped, when I think I, and most other people would agree that everyone needs to be slapped straight across the face.

Just because people were hurt doesn't constitute a punishment. I'm not up to current on this "crisis", but when there are clear violations to the rules those are the people that get slapped. Take a step back, a deep breath, and ask yourself if you're right. Real talk.

[DM Sollers]

That request was made in reference specifically to the group outside- we were already inside at that point with a smaller group (three PCs) that previous rulings have said do not count as raids.

You then showed up to ask us to leave, and we did. That's behind me and all that, but my two main questions remain:

- What is the difference between "individual PvP" and a "raid"? Is it numbers? Planning? Story reasons?
- Are attacks on the Arcane Tower considered to be raids and should those be reported?

Thanks.

Hi.

The issue with the Bane Temple situation was that there were, from the portal, 9+ (I want to say 13, but I don't know if they were traveling through the area or with the group) individuals stood outside of the temple to potentially raid/camp to try and dance around the raid rule. Axis stated that the raid party had to leave. A second message was then delivered, again, to vacate. A few more messages later, they had to pause the game and bounce messages to get the party to clear out. It was a mess, a mess that shouldn't have happened, and with some communication it could have been avoided (and maybe even supported).

Sollers, what was the point of that? His signature was as harmless as a fly. You're disappointed in a player for acknowledging that hardships of the plot they're trying to make? Not only did you also release player's private discord's in the pictures as well, but you're disappointed? In what? That they would share a perfectly harmless snippit of a discord conversation?

Hi.

It is a matter of trust and it goes both ways. A doctored (see: context removed) cut of private messages was shared. Privacy was both waived and breached. The undoctored conversation with context was provided. It is as simple as that.

[Kreydis]

Hi.

It is a matter of trust and it goes both ways. A doctored (see: context removed) cut of private messages was shared. Privacy was both waived and breached. The undoctored conversation with context was provided. It is as simple as that.

I don't believe you. But that doesn't matter. What really matters is how you again, have posted private player's usernames who have absolutely no bearing in this 'trust breaking'. I again, ask that you remove or censor their discord names.

[CosmicOrderV]

DM conduct not withstanding, I do wonder about some sort of written set of standards, for what values the server holds.

For example, the WYSIWYG rule has always been paramount as far as I was aware. It's the peak of immersion.

Which is why i feel like most of what Scurvy Cur said seems off-base. Arelith is absolutely a fantasy themed reality simulator. Which may seem a bit counter intuitive to the unimaginative, but said reality is defined by Arelith's systems and mechanics. Consisitency is key.

For this reason im actually mot fond of OOC speedbumps hard-railing gameplay. Rules of engagment are absolutely necessary, but there does come a point where there's too much. Im not saying we've fully crossed that threshold but it's something I sincerely hope the admin's consider.

One such example I hope to see removed in the future, with HAKs, is asking for permission to raise. It would be nice to see a more immersive dialogue box, maybe akin to how yoink works, while in the fugue. Simply to remove OOC interaction to fascilitate what is IC. This isnt the issue of this thread, i know, but an example i hope of the direction I would be afraid of seeing the server going.

People lose. Not every interaction, encounter, or conflict, is going to be fun. Immersion and consistency should be the number one priority. Fun will be a natural byproduct of these awesome mechanics, and player conduct. The latter obviously being where DM's become relevant.

[Flip Flappers]

Hi.

It is a matter of trust and it goes both ways. A doctored (see: context removed) cut of private messages was shared. Privacy was both waived and breached. The undoctored conversation with context was provided. It is as simple as that.

I don't believe you. But that doesn't matter. What really matters is how you again, have posted private player's usernames who have absolutely no bearing in this 'trust breaking'. I again, ask that you remove or censor their discord names.

You probably could have just nicely asked for this in your original message instead of putting people on the backfoot and likely making that point have been entirely missed. But you just want to be impotently mad at someone, probably, because it sounds like you're pretty heavily invested in this from the way you've worded your responses.

[Zed]

That request was made in reference specifically to the group outside- we were already inside at that point with a smaller group (three PCs) that previous rulings have said do not count as raids.

You then showed up to ask us to leave, and we did. That's behind me and all that, but my two main questions remain:

- What is the difference between "individual PvP" and a "raid"? Is it numbers? Planning? Story reasons?
- Are attacks on the Arcane Tower considered to be raids and should those be reported?

Thanks.

Hi.

The issue with the Bane Temple situation was that there were, from the portal, 9+ (I want to say 13, but I don't know if they were traveling through the area or with the group) individuals stood outside of the temple to potentially raid/camp to try and dance around the raid rule. Axis stated that the raid party had to leave. A second message was then delivered, again, to vacate. A few more messages later, they had to pause the game and bounce messages to get the party to clear out. It was a mess, a mess that shouldn't have happened, and with some communication it could have been avoided (and maybe even supported).

Sollers, what was the point of that? His signature was as harmless as a fly. You're disappointed in a player for acknowledging that hardships of the plot they're trying to make? Not only did you also release player's private discord's in the pictures as well, but you're disappointed? In what? That they would share a perfectly harmless snippit of a discord conversation?

Hi.

It is a matter of trust and it goes both ways. A doctored (see: context removed) cut of private messages was shared. Privacy was both waived and breached. The undoctored conversation with context was provided. It is as simple as that.

Sollers that thread was completely polite and the only thing that could even be considered contentious is the fact that you perversely posted a private conversation, whereas the signature is literally a condensed version of the same exact conversation that took place.

Not only that, but your attack against penwize in this thread after they have been nothing, NOTHING, but polite indicates that you feel attacked that people have a problem with the server goings on after an entirely polite post about concerns from an upstanding member of your community.

If you are going to attack members of the community do it to people that attack you directly.

Not against members that seek to actually fix the problems that exist in the first place.

[-XXX-]

I genuinely don't understand... where's all this entitlement coming from?


We've been granted the opportunity to enjoy free content provided by volunteers who invest a great amount of their free time and energy into maintaining said free content.

As far as I'm aware nothing really compels the team to be fair towards the players. The fact that they aspire to act that way should be acknowledged as a courtesy and not be taken for something granted.