Shadow Evade

[TimeAdept]

The likely kit of the class atm is STR based with greatsword or double weapon, so the shadow doesn't generally have epic dodge, nor does the SD.

that's really my beef with the class atm, that the shadow encourages a zero stealth STr approach, but like also, I'm OK that the build option is there? I dunno, it just doesn't feel very theme-y.

No opinion re: shadow evade. It becoming a free action at SD 15+ would be nice.

Epic SDs getting access to offensive Shades shadow summon would be hilarious.

[CosmicOrderV]

Shadowdancers get far more than that. There's actually a ridiculous accumulation of things by level ten, <--- and that last one buffs several of them and throws in a whole slew of bonuses besides, including stacking with rogue bonus AB/AC level requirements in light armor.

I didn't realize you can only get one shadow clone at a time, but since they auto-guard you (Edit: which, while we're discussing it, was taken away as an ability from every other summon in the game literal years ago), and clone epic dodge if you have it (you probably should, since you get all the feat pre-reqs by levelling up shadowdancer) I stand by my point that shadow evade on top of it is actually rather beastly. Again, I'm not arguing to nerf it. But IMO, it's presently the most powerful defensive ability in the game when factored on top of the rest of the likely kit of the class.

The likely kit of the class atm is STR based with greatsword or double weapon, so the shadow doesn't generally have epic dodge, nor does the SD.

that's really my beef with the class atm, that the shadow encourages a zero stealth STr approach, but like also, I'm OK that the build option is there? I dunno, it just doesn't feel very theme-y.

No opinion re: shadow evade. It becoming a free action at SD 15+ would be nice.

Epic SDs getting access to offensive Shades shadow summon would be hilarious.

I feel like these two are relevant. The reason strength builds are the go to is because the class doesn't actually net you much. If those feats are appealing, you'd play a rogue. And yeah 10 levels gives you a list of things, it's because it's a prestige class. Still doesn't make 'em worth it. Speaking of, the requirements? Dodge and Mobility primarily aid STR based characters.

Then there's the auto-guard, which has been a point of consideration for a while, because everyone's always pointed out how in pve Shadowdancers are awesome, yet in pvp, that awesomeness disappears. I feel like this touches on what Subutai pointed out. There's really not a whole lot of abilities the shadowdancer actually gets. Summon Shadow, Daze, and Shadow Evade.

Well as discussed, Summon Shadow is a pve grinder. Cool. But half-baked.
Daze, the DC sucks and will always suck.
The feats (defensive roll, improved evasion) are useful and can allow for E.Dodge, but then you're running into the issue pre-buff monks had, but worse. Yeah you can handle all pve content unchallenged, buuuuuuuut you aren't gonna do any damage.
Shadow Evade? This seems to be where the Dev's decided to balance pvp into the equation. If your shadow is guarding you, Shadow Evade really doesn't matter a whole lot. Sure it can be nice to cover your arse if it dies and HiPS isn't going to work, but really, this seems like the pvp shtick of a shadowdancer. And like was mentioned above, what's going to really help you here? Strength.

[Jagel]

Could shadow evade be given two functions that you toggle between? One that gives defensive bonuses like its current iteration and one that can be used on targets to make them vulnurable to cold/negative damage, loose AC, penalties to spot/listen, blindness or whatever.

[Sea Shanties]

Shadow Daze DC isn't bad actually... 15 + base int (which will be 2 99% of the time) + SD levels= DC 35 at 18 SD which can work against lower will save opponents.

Only being able to use it once every 5 minutes makes it a novelty though. It could really be a hallmark ability, one easily countered but still fearsome in PVP if they caught you unaware or in the clarity window, but it would have to have more than one use per fight.

[Richørd]

I didn't realize you can only get one shadow clone at a time, but since they auto-guard you (Edit: which, while we're discussing it, was taken away as an ability from every other summon in the game literal years ago), and clone epic dodge if you have it (you probably should, since you get all the feat pre-reqs by levelling up shadowdancer) I stand by my point that shadow evade on top of it is actually rather beastly. Again, I'm not arguing to nerf it. But IMO, it's presently the most powerful defensive ability in the game when factored on top of the rest of the likely kit of the class.

I personally was always in favor of removing the guard feature and in return improving the Shadow Dancer's stealth abilities and make them less noisy / flashy overall.

[Sea Shanties]

I personally was always in favor of removing the guard feature and in return improving the Shadow Dancer's stealth abilities and make them less noisy / flashy overall.

I think this exists now to a large extent, people just glom onto the ridiculous strength meta instead. With the rogue/SD update a rogue can give up the better grenades and a few sneak attack dice, take 5 levels of SD and keep their armor, weapon, stealth and blinding speed bonuses while gaining HiPS, free defensive roll and a shadow that's useless in epics but will zoom you through mid-level writs. If you value stealth over offensive this is a very viable way to go.

I played a dex-based 10 rogue/14 SD/6 fighter before the change and they were decent offensively and extremely durable with epic dodge and high stealth/AC, not as strong in PVP as a 24/6 rogue but still capable and not as ridiculous in PVE as a strength-based SD but still had a very easy time against sneak attack vulnerable enemies and weren't useless in PVP. It's actually a pretty balanced build but people don't play it because it's not lopsidedly overpowered which is always much more of an attraction.

I agree though about shadow evade needing to be silent and auto-guard rethought.

[TimeAdept]

Yeah, 19 rogue 6 fighter 5 SD is the winner as far as HIPS dip goes, for sure, but it doesn't do much for people wanting to go hard in the paint with SD.

10/14/6 is pretty good, you lose some off the top with the shadow though, which is a shame, but you keep 4 attacks and get max rogue goodies.

I feel like you could also do like... 8 rogue 6 fighter 16 SD, if you're married to keeping the max shadow evade power, as much shadow as you can keep, and the stun off of shadowdaze. No crippling strike though. I might need to math that one out, I'm not sure, there might be a winner there. Or not... on first glance I think you'd still lose 4 attacks unless you're willing to do all 8 rogue pre epic to do 8/4/8 SD pre epic, which would be 16. you could do a rogue at 20 to get as much in the rogue skills as possible, but the SD skill list is just pretty lame. Like, REALLY lame. Doesn't get appraise, bluff, trap skills, lock skills, set trap, UMD... but you could probably make it work. Well, you could do 7/5/8 pre epic too, messes with your saves a little bit but saves a rogue level for epic to top off skills, that's probably the better idea.

I might need to go scribble those up and see where it goes.

[Richørd]

Well, putting builds of people, the Shadow's guard mechanic and everything else aside to get back to the original topic and a question that I have about it for coders / devs :

Would it be possible to make the Shadow Evade less noisy and turn it into a toggle ability after X levels of Shadowdancer?