Arelith’s (surface) is once again too safe and too divided

[Lady Astray]

It's getting tiresome that we have to shield evil characters from consequences just to have some "conflict", because everybody who lacks a moral compass apparently also lacks foresight as well.

It's getting tiresome that we have to shield evil characters from consequences just to have some "conflict", because everybody who lacks a moral compass apparently also lacks foresight as well.

It's getting tiresome that we have to shield evil characters from consequences just to have some "conflict", because everybody who lacks a moral compass apparently also lacks foresight as well.

It's getting tiresome that we have to shield evil characters from consequences just to have some "conflict", because everybody who lacks a moral compass apparently also lacks foresight as well.

It is getting tiresome.

[Sea Shanties]

Taking away racial-only settlements will mean humans would take over or at least be a majority almost everywhere. If you want a classic archetypical Elven city, Dwarven Halls and Hin village you need some restrictions, the humans will always have sheer numbers on their side. It's hard to defend something like the Grotto that sees little use but opening it to humans would certainly make it active-- and probably lead to pushing PC gnomes trying to do anything there out completely.

[Ascheriit]

Arelith's UD only needs three settlements to reach its full potential, I think.

-A drow specific settlement so that traditionalist drow RP can thrive, ideally seperated from Andunor by a short distance.
-A cosmopolitan settlement so that nontraditional drow can thrive without being under constant direct threat from the traditionalists. This settlement would be where all the UD races mingle with human, goblin, gnoll, orog, etc. populations. Andunor would almost surely fill this niche.
-A small but heavily fortified Duergar enclave.

Making seperate settlements might not even be fully nescessary. The table could be fortified further and codified to drow control permanently by restricting voting rights. The port district could become the duergar enclave with its own government, and the sharps could stay the same(mostly) cosmopolitan utopia its designed to be.

Andunor has two districts, but that results in largely polarized conflict, or an alliance with nothing going on. A third district would mix things up dramatically.

You missed a deep gnome area not the current one that got rammed into brog and mechanically became part of it.

[Jack Oat]

Evil could use a spot on the Surface. Why not let Brog be the nexus for evil chars? Or Bendir? Or Guldorand? Why not open up and use what we have, instead of making new places and trying to shoehorn the RP into them?

This was done before with another settlement. All the players invested in that settlement either quit or went elsewhere. The players who want to play evil characters prefer to join evil settlements that are going to stay evil. What you're suggesting has been tried before and it just caused some of the most prominent and popular players on the server to outright quit. Please do not suggest this. I am begging you based on personal experience. It does not create conflict. It creates hurt feelings OOC and causes players to just leave the table. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time.

Which settlement?
If you're referring to Benwick, I personally played in Benwick. Some of its players quit the server, yes. Many did not. I have two thoughts on this. The first is going to sound rude but the people we lost were people who weren't willing to see the server as an ongoing story and, quite frankly, were the players behind why the devs wanted it removed in the first place. The second, on the flipside, is that the devs should have allowed players to rebuild/retake Light Keep instead of ignoring the abundance of inclusive RP (not including the fixture spam, screw fixture spam) that went into trying to do just that. If you allow things to change naturally and as a result of player actions, it's hard to stay upset when it's within your power as a player to change things. The big reason a lot of those people left was because they felt that not only had all of their characters' past (debatably) hard work been ignored/destroyed, but that their ongoing actions had no impact on whether things stayed that way.

If you're referring to Wharftown, well. Wharftown felt like a knee-jerk response to players violating rules/ignoring NPCs, which should have been handled through the liberal application of The_House rather than destroying a cool settlement. Again, I'm also disappointed with the dev decision to not let anything become of its ruins.

Evil has a spot on the server. It's called everywhere. Where is that quote from Irongron about how he tried being inclusive to non-good in the design decisions of the server? Is that not enough?

Yeah, sorry. I should have articulated that better. I mean "release these places from their racial shackles so that bad things can potentially befall them," not "force them into being the new Evil place."

[Jack Oat]

Taking away racial-only settlements will mean humans would take over or at least be a majority almost everywhere. If you want a classic archetypical Elven city, Dwarven Halls and Hin village you need some restrictions, the humans will always have sheer numbers on their side. It's hard to defend something like the Grotto that sees little use but opening it to humans would certainly make it active-- and probably lead to pushing PC gnomes trying to do anything there out completely.

Or it would force the various non-human races to either rally as each race to hold their holdings, or rally together against Humans. Which would be neat.

[Mr_Rieper]

The second, on the flipside, is that the devs should have allowed players to rebuild/retake Light Keep instead of ignoring the abundance of inclusive RP (not including the fixture spam, screw fixture spam) that went into trying to do just that. If you allow things to change naturally and as a result of player actions, it's hard to stay upset when it's within your power as a player to change things. The big reason a lot of those people left was because they felt that not only had all of their characters' past (debatably) hard work been ignored/destroyed, but that their ongoing actions had no impact on whether things stayed that way.

If you're referring to Wharftown, well. Wharftown felt like a knee-jerk response to players violating rules/ignoring NPCs, which should have been handled through the liberal application of The_House rather than destroying a cool settlement. Again, I'm also disappointed with the dev decision to not let anything become of its ruins.

My biggest issue with how Benwick was handled isn't that they denied the use of the settlement, more that the ending was an active, ongoing middle-finger to the paladins and clerics that called the place their home. It wasn't just a ruin, it was a devil-infested wound in the Prime. The story was not over, but it was forcefully concluded to shut the players out of trying to weasel their way into having a settlement again. I spoke to Artos about this, and it seems it was more of a dev-side reason for the abrupt conclusion and not an intentional screwing over the players, but some of the follow-up to Benwick was questionable. I don't think it should have ever been a settlement again, but c'mon. Letting players fix the devil problem (as they NEEDED to do) just to have it swarmed by undead, then devils again? Corrupting the Light, letting the devil influence spread into the forest when there's nothing that can be done about it? That's just cruel. They had these grand plans for all these wandering Benwick knights but why would anybody want to be one of those when it's constantly rubbed in your face how futile your efforts are?

I literally roll my eyes every time there's a DM plot involving Benwick. And I will OOC refuse to be part of it. My characters will all conveniently forget about it or not be concerned with it at all. Because it's so predictable and so downright mean to tease people with it. I use Benwick as a point of history, nothing more. It could stop existing tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference. (Crinukh, though, you da MVP)

As for Wharftown, c'mon Jack. It had a long history. A looooong history. It isn't fair to call it a knee-jerk reaction to something that happened once a year, every year. The fact that the players ran away and stopped logging in spoke volumes about their commitment to the things they had started. It was a cool place that was constantly abused, and everybody got sick of the same tired routine.

Evil has a spot on the server. It's called everywhere. Where is that quote from Irongron about how he tried being inclusive to non-good in the design decisions of the server? Is that not enough?

Yeah, sorry. I should have articulated that better. I mean "release these places from their racial shackles so that bad things can potentially befall them," not "force them into being the new Evil place."

Yeah okay, I'm fine with this. Evil elves that aren't drow are cool. Evil dwarves are fine too. All halflings are secretly evil, some more secretly than others. If they've got the ambition and guts to try to flip the situation, that's okay. As long as they aren't begging for OOC help on it.

[Lady Astray]

Which settlement?

The one that is currently a ghost town because its past two leaders decided to act like fascists and kill everyone that disagrees with them. If I give details I will just be subjected to more cyber bullying and probably get a talking to from the DM's. Evil characters that "create conflict" are far too sheltered from the consequences of their actions.

Also if the shoe was on the other foot, and a bunch of LG paladins rigged an election in Anundor, turned it into a bastion of righteousness and holiness, exiling all monster races and evil spellcasters, all sorts of Hell would be raised on the forums, people would be banned. But there seems to be a double standard where evil PC's can take over traditionally good aligned surface settlements and it is fine, all in the name of "conflict." Come on.

This is absurd.

[Sea Shanties]

Or it would force the various non-human races to either rally as each race to hold their holdings, or rally together against Humans. Which would be neat.

I think you vastly overestimate the strength of some of these races. Elves could probably pull it off (probably, not definitely), maybe Dwarves if people wanted them to. Hin? doubt it, and gnomes are seen as a joke and humans would happily occupy anything they claim. I could see this sort of event going down with DM oversight and with the understanding that the status quo will probably return eventually but a human thane running a hall of humans and dwarves, is that really desirable long term? Or making Bendir yet another human town? Because that would happen, and aside from elves I don't think the other races are taken seriously enough in general to get elected to leadership roles elsewhere. Exceptional cases aside, of course, but humans are the dominant race both mechanically and in numbers and I suspect there's some general psychological bent towards taking human characters more seriously than non from the player side.

I think what I would like to see is blank slate settlements that could come and go with the RP. Something like the Half Orc settlement could be just empty land where if enough players claim it and RP towards building (with some mechanical backing, like # amount of fixtures and materials supplied) they could turn it into an actual town, fort, whatever and NPC merchants etc would emerge. If it's neglected it goes back to being a blank slate again for the next person.

[Nitro]

The one that is currently a ghost town because its past two leaders decided to act like fascists and kill everyone that disagrees with them. If I give details I will just be subjected to more cyber bullying and probably get a talking to from the DM's. Evil characters that "create conflict" are far too sheltered from the consequences of their actions.

Also if the shoe was on the other foot, and a bunch of LG paladins rigged an election in Anundor, turned it into a bastion of righteousness and holiness, exiling all monster races and evil spellcasters, all sorts of Hell would be raised on the forums, people would be banned. But there seems to be a double standard where evil PC's can take over traditionally good aligned surface settlements and it is fine, all in the name of "conflict." Come on.

This is absurd.

It's almost like Andunor is the only settlement that underdarkers and monster races can be in and therefore literally can't become a bastion of goodness or something

[Irongron]

Returning to the original point (less so the good/evil debate) I actually really do get that point of view.

From Andunor on I've really tried to consider player traffic, and push players towards 'hubs', this is as especially true in the quiet hours. Neverthless sprawl (even in Andunor) does happen.

New areas always seem a burst of RP, and that's fun...while it lasts, though all too often such additions can become dead spaces, or problematic. Even if they've been a ton of work to make I must always be able to accept it is better to remove them - Wharftown for example I had done a ton of work on shortly before its removal.

Player numbers really do factor into these kind of decisions, as when they're very large I do like players having space, not just for 'doing their own thing' but also so there's a lot of potential for repeat play. This last point I cannot emphasise enough. Repeat play is the ability for your next 5 characters to have a very different experince. I'd rather have areas that are 'dead' for a while, than push everyone into the same areas, time and time again.

Right now we're growing again in numbers, and have been over 200 for much of the last 5 hours or so. As such I am not inclined to start cutting things back, or taking focus of the current project to rearrange the isle based on this kind of feedback.

Here's a little insight anyway, on some of the locations listed. Why I made them, and what if anything could be done with them.


Halfbreed Camp - This was following a lot of player RP, and I placed it right next to the Crow's Nest, as I think that suffers (and still does) from not being active enough. Crow's Nest is ripe for a massive update anyway. Halfbreed Camp, if not used can easily be turned into a dungeon.

Radiant Heart/Bane Temple: Two sides of the same coin. They exist in the north to tie with the RP of the Chateau/Battlefield and to ensure conflict between them don't spill out into start areas. Its also important to be even handed. Putting Banites way out in the wildnerness while giving the Triad an HQ right in the middle of Cordor wasn't okay in my view.

Greyhammer. I didn't make this one, but its full of charm. Not everywhere needs to be player faction HQ, and just having a little hamlet to stumble across can be nice.

Bendir Riverbank: Same as above. Its right next to the Earthkin Village, so I wouldn't consider it sprawl really. I kept it apart from Earthkin Government but am now reconsidering that a little. It was intended as a thematic/tranquil spot along the river, and the first player farm (its great for planting)

Tungsten Turret.: This is literally 20 feet from the Arcane Tower, and would consider it an extension of it. I believe the NPC there talks about tower lessons being held there,

Arcane Tower/Mayfields: Again, same as above, but I do feel this can be a great hub for the 'surface' server. Somewhere outside the settlement system (for those that really don't have any wish to interact with it) but active enough to give a lot of RP. When the HAK packages go live I'll be going full steam at getting the new city finished, polished and released, but a large update/expansion to Mayfiends Tavern, making it the 'go-to' tavern for the module is something I really want to see happen.

As for the safety point, I can only say that for some players that's a positive boon. We cater to a lot of different play styles, not just from different individuals, but very often the very same one - taking another approach to playing the game at a different time.

If someone is left cold by raids/faction conflicts/settlement functions and just wants to run their guild/organisation in relative isolation - that's fine as far as I'm concerned. I've done, and greatly enjoyed both.

Being in the thick of the action can be exhilarating and a great way to play the game, but the more ponderous, and often more personal roleplay of what is commonly termed 'social server RP' can really involve some great storytelling and meaningful moments. There is a huge merit to both, and I believe they can, do, and should be able to exist side by side.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

To the good/evil debate: Wharftown was a fantastic settlement because it was a battleground. Guldorand has had some of this, but really is too remote to be a part of the action. When we talk about "Evil needing this" or "good needing that", I never know what is meant by this. Someone correct me, but it's generally something about "so we can RP our chars without fear of being rekt." And I think that's problematic thinking for a bunch of reasons.

To the raids: there's way more exciting things to do.

To LK: it had to go. I hope Myon is on the chopping block for change.

To Irongorn:
Thanks so much for responding! I take inspiration from the hub of Andunor.

Can you elaborate more by what you mean by "Repeat play"? An example perhaps?

And my feedback isn't to necessarily say we need to scale back on size. Rather, consolidation. Some days I'd really like Bendir/ArcaneTower/Cordor to be on a shorter road together. I'd rather settlements but forced to have some sort of co-existence rather than be isolated spheres of influence.

I also sometimes wonder if Darrowdeep should be right on the Trade Road. Smack it in the middle just like the Liberated Territories. Make it important from geopolitical standpoint.

Replace the Laurick stop at Wharftown with a drop-off in northern Minmir. Be able to take a river-ferry up from Bendir to the foothills of the Crags. Or a river-ferry through the Arelith Forest to the Temple of Silvanus. We might call Bendir Dale a cross-roads, but actually it's less of a cross-roads than it ever has been. You can't see the bridge north from the gates as you sorta used to be able to. You can skirt a lot of the Fort altogether, whereas it should be obnoxiously at the crux of the t-junction.

Stuff like that. More interconnectedness. Maybe that's off base. But when you know people can show up, there's a new sense of tension. I think geographical isolation is good for some things, but not for settlements.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm sure by repeat play he means the ability to finish one character and have a completely different experience on the next. And he's right, that is likely one of Arelith's biggest strengths over any other NwN server I have ever played. I'm on my fifth or so character on the server and every experience has been different and the people around them are always different, with some overlap here and there. And I haven't even played the underdark yet.

[Durvayas]

Taking away racial-only settlements will mean humans would take over or at least be a majority almost everywhere. If you want a classic archetypical Elven city, Dwarven Halls and Hin village you need some restrictions, the humans will always have sheer numbers on their side. It's hard to defend something like the Grotto that sees little use but opening it to humans would certainly make it active-- and probably lead to pushing PC gnomes trying to do anything there out completely.

Or it would force the various non-human races to either rally as each race to hold their holdings, or rally together against Humans. Which would be neat.

Would be neat...

Or would result in mass PvP and bans like how the UD rallied to repel the invasion forced-integration influx of humans when the outcasts first rolled out.

Then, instead of just seeing threads about there being too many humans in Andunor, you could have different flavors of the same thread with different towns. Hell you could have them running in tandem. There are literally that many humans on the server.

"Too many humans in myon!"
"Too many humans in Bendir!"
"Too many humans in Brog! We'll call it Brogordor."

[Vrass]

Without the raids things are getting boring. There already are few events which does not help, now with the raids all but dried up there is pretty much nothing to do. The constant non-stop pvp raids and the rp it generated were one of the main things that kept me on Arelith instead of returning to my old server. Seriously they need to be brought back before things get so boring that people start leaving.

Evil needs a place on the surface and none of the existing settlements are going to do aside from Sibayad which is already a pretty shady place when compared to other surface towns. As such i suggest making Sibayad or an entirely new town in the desert as the evil/neutral hub. I would like to see Sibayad made into a much larger settlement then it is or see a new larger desert settlement added. I am currently working on two maps which should serve that purpose well but will need help to complete them. Will see how it goes.

[Baseili]

I don't believe slapping an evil settlement down will do anything to promote antagonistic characters, rather it would create a target that requires a greater amount of story protection than any other settlement and undermine its purpose by making a safe spot for evil.

To promote evil you need to foster it in the hub areas by having visible bad zones like:
Poorly streets or tunnels, seedy taverns or gambling houses and general rundown areas that can only be held by evil characters to give off the "bad part of town" vibe immediately.

Make it interesting by adding an option to buy off guards (a good use of intimidate or persuade) to leave their posts for a set amount of time so certain streets become darker and ideal for shakedowns.

Cut down on fast travel options like ships and portals so more folks are on the roads encouraging highway robberies complete with ratholes/escapes for them to disappear through. Allow -track capable characters to find these escape routes and close a few of them off.

Once you have the basics it can lead to some interesting things like turf wars between rival gangs, mercenary companies being hired to watch trade roads, city guards actually having something to do other than tell new players off for having weapons or summons out. Just imagine having active investigations, use of forgotten skills, purpose to largely unused mechanics, evidence and detective work, actual use of a legal system and court for more than message board storage. Wouldn't that be something?

[azrael_athing]

What I think that the opening post is trying to adress is that Arelith as an untamed frontier of the Amnian influence-sphere has stopped to hold this "frontier" feeling to it.

For instance there is the threat of constant danger as soon as you go outside the walled part of any settlement, there could be drow raids and dragons and what-not but it's simply not what we are seeing. Taking Bendir Dale for example, it has grown from Fort Bendir (a place under constant siege from all around. Trolls, Orcs, Ogres and Minotaurs) to the farming community of Burrowhome with plenty of houses outlying the walled fort.

For me it's just simply not in line with the rest of the setting which would be untamed frontier. For me it's always been strange that these outlying farms actually manage to survive, considering we have orc raids and a orc fortress but a stonethrow away. Orcs would gladly set every single farmhouse on fire before you can say "safeday", and frankly be able to torch and raid more often then the settlement would be able to rebuild.

This threat, if we are to actually play it as the orcs as a threat, is not currently observed in the design of Burrowhome.

ps. About the humans, they are in the setting an actual demographic threat to any of the elder races and should in my opinion be considered as such. Removing the racial restrictions and DM supervision from certain settlements could potentially produce another type of political scene which we are currently lacking where the Dwarfs and Elfs stop rubbing elbows with the humans and actually start acting rather more conservative. I don't see this RP being able to bloom under current conditions.

pps. About Good and Evil, idealy there would be a RP scene allowing for both within any major settlement. We however do not see this happening as it's simply to easy to guilt someone by collusion and that mechanical bannishments are a to damn strong and quick way to get rid of anyone who haven't the right flavor of the month (example of how Cordor used to shift between forces of good and evil in a binary form rather then a fleeting movement with them both gaining and loosing political ground to one another).

[Shadowy Reality]

The issue with the surface is that you have very few options if you are openly Evil.

You will be exiled or driven off all settlements. That will leave you with Sibayad, and even then you may be driven off. Unless your interests align with those of Banites you really have no place in the Surface you can be and interact with like minded people. You will have to move to the Underdark, into Andunor, Abyssal Citadel or Sencliff.

And by openly Evil I don't mean a dread lord, I mean just your average highwayman.

[The GrumpyCat]

The issue with the surface is that you have very few options if you are openly Evil.

You will be exiled or driven off all settlements. That will leave you with Sibayad, and even then you may be driven off. Unless your interests align with those of Banites you really have no place in the Surface you can be and interact with like minded people. You will have to move to the Underdark, into Andunor, Abyssal Citadel or Sencliff.

And by openly Evil I don't mean a dread lord, I mean just your average highwayman.

Actually I think I sort of both agree and dissagree with this.

I think we can brauden the issue to 'misfits'.

If you're Evil mc Evil son of Evil then you do have Andunor as an option. And that's cool.
The... and I won't say 'issue' but more 'danger' with making everything settlment based is not just for the 'social' rpers who want to avoid politics, but also for the conflict rpers who want to be able to do their conflict.
And conflict does NOT = evil.

The issues I see are actually as much on the lesser evils - or even not neccesarly on the evils themselves - those who just want to play cheeky rogues, mad scientists, shady witch hunters, so on and so forth. These guys arn't neccesarly ones who wake up screaming for the blood of 100 babies, but will find themselves in dire streights with certain settlments- especialy those whom go for the more 21st century viewpoints. As much as I love the settlment system, neutral areas are important because they allow this sort of rp too.

[Ebonstar]

I knew a player once who's character was so openly evil it was like getting slapped in the face with it.

However, He was so good at it, and was able to always keep his hands clean during his nefarious schemes, there was never anything to tie him to any crimes directly. This character ran the underworld with such precision and moxy, every paladin and guard player wanted him in jail or dead, but couldnt touch him.

His was the name people whispered in taverns, were scared shitless of, and yet when they needed coin he was the loan shark they ran too, and risked life and limb to pay him back with his fees.

This is the evil that is missing, and it has nothing to do with settlements or race. He was charismatic and could control the room with a single word. But he made demons pee their pants.

instead of lets plop a safe space for evil to control, perhaps this is the evil that needs to be more of. Not the blatent, praise Bane or i will pvp you into submission ( no offense to the Banites) but the obvious, yet subtle handed style, that even the do gooders cannot fight in the way they prefer.

[Baseili]

That must've been quite some time ago Ebon because a year ago I tried to create something similar and it got nowhere.
I learned that grinding out writs is all most people care about 1 - 20 so something subtle like organised crime doesn't register, people aren't interested in factions that don't have their own guildhouse or quarter and even less so in trying to building one from the ground up.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

That must've been quite some time ago Ebon because a year ago I tried to create something similar and it got nowhere.
I learned that grinding out writs is all most people care about 1 - 20 so something subtle like organised crime doesn't register, people aren't interested in factions that don't have their own guildhouse or quarter and even less so in trying to building one from the ground up.

Tangential but important, I have also wondered if the dominance of the writ system has made it harder for faction roleplay, intetegration of lowbies, or creating a scale to roleplay.

Also, azrael_athing - you're example of Bendir is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, imo.

[Sea Shanties]

Low level RP is vibrant on Skal where epic activity is limited. On Arelith proper people rush through writs to get to a point where they can keep up with everything that's going on.

Also most new characters aren't new players. Those on their 15th Arelith character don't tend to want to linger in the lower levels and want to rush get to a comfort zone where they can really be a part of things. That was true before writs, but IMO back then there was much more divide between people who had the OOC networks to grind quickly and pre-arrange a character's place in the world and those who are more or less on their own and looking for ways to fit in.

[Lady Astray]

It's almost like Andunor is the only settlement that underdarkers and monster races can be in and therefore literally can't become a bastion of goodness or something

This is the double standard I'm talking about. Some evil character takes over a surface settlement by rigging elections, displacing a ton of players/characters and effectively ruining their lives, nobody bats an eye. But soon as we raise the notion of team good being able to conquer Minmir, Sencliff, or Anundor everyone loses their minds. Basically team evil is sheltered from ever taking any kind of real loss or facing any consequences for their actions while team good has to always remain vigilant because soon as they lose a major raid or go on vacation for a week their settlement becomes the next Wharftown or Benwick.

[Nobs]

Warftwon was evil right?
And thats a ruin now.

[Nitro]

It's almost like Andunor is the only settlement that underdarkers and monster races can be in and therefore literally can't become a bastion of goodness or something

This is the double standard I'm talking about. Some evil character takes over a surface settlement by rigging elections, displacing a ton of players/characters and effectively ruining their lives, nobody bats an eye. But soon as we raise the notion of team good being able to conquer Minmir, Sencliff, or Anundor everyone loses their minds. Basically team evil is sheltered from ever taking any kind of real loss or facing any consequences for their actions while team good has to always remain vigilant because soon as they lose a major raid or go on vacation for a week their settlement becomes the next Wharftown or Benwick.

See, you're equating things that aren't equal though. No settlement is designed to have any alignment (not even Andunor though there will likely be intervention if someone tries to purge it, on account of there not being any other settlement for monster races) and to call foul play when a settlement swaps from one aligned group to another is just throwing a tantrum because the other team 'won'. All these guild halls you've listed are just that, themed guild halls. The minmir monastery is for banites, radiant heart is for knights, sencliff for pirates etc. None of these are settlements and should not be treated as settlements.

It's not that "team evil" is sheltered from consequences, it's that the current status quo doesn't favour them. When they take over a settlement it's usually a temporary victory, after which they are ousted again sooner or later which is unquestionably consequence. The same goes for "team good", just because they own a settlement or has done so for any length of time doesn't give them any inherent right to it or make the loss of it hurt them any more than it would "team evil", just the same as no group deserves a guild house just because they've held it the longest.

And finally, "Team Evil" and "Team Good" are dumb terms that marginalize players and forms an "Us VS Them" narrative. We're all players on this server, and no player or group no matter their position on the alignment spectrum is entitled to anything.