Outcasts can be non-evil.

[Kuma]

As topic.

This was never the intention.

[Nitro]

Are you sure it was never the intention? In the update thread (of the old forum) where they were introduced it said this about them:

Outcasts start in the Underdark city of Andunor.

(Requires human or half-orc, non-good alignment)

So the in-game text might be erroneous here.

[The_Queen~s_Rebuke]

A few points to remember:

[...]

-Outcasts are not people who stole a loaf of bread to feed their starving puppy. They are the worst criminals/individuals known to society. They are your serial killers and other detestable sort.

[Nitro]

The Truth of the Matter

Redemption for outcasts is mostly impossible, as whether innocent or guilty (in the cases of those outcasts accused of having done something) their notoriety is such that the populace is convinced of it. While an outcast may be able to convince an individual character of their good nature, they cannot easily manage this in the eyes of every NPC in the game.

[The Greater Good]

The party line for the entire time outcast has been available literally up till today, including in the IG description of outcast, was that they were literal mass murderers, serial killers, etc. Suddenly saying 'or accused!' seems like, inconsistent and kindve cop-outy.

[Nitro]

It's not suddenly, from day one it's been described that they're not necessarily guilty of what they've been accused of, just that it's so widely believed that no one will deal with them.

[Xerah]

Things change. Don't be so rigid that you can't accept that.

[The Greater Good]

Didn't mean to upset you, dude. However: the ig description needs changed or outcast does.

Because ig the convo directly says "This character has committed grave crimes in the past." Not was accused of or is mentally ill. Things change, and the descriptions should too.

[Nitro]

Ingame descriptions have a habit of being outdated. We had raven totems that said they gave +2 wisdom for about 10 years after they stopped doing that.

[xanrael]

I could see a neutral alignment Outcast. Imagine a doctor that kidnaps, kills, and dissects the downtrodden and sick they cannot seem to save to learn more about anatomy and the treatment of diseases. At the same time they employ that knowledge to save the lives they can and begin to write research texts on it.

They're not serving a dark god, trying to open a portal to the Abyss, or gleefully killing people. Heck if one measures time by millennia their research might end up saving 10x more than they killed. If their methods are learned they're probably going to have a lynch mob after them and have to run to the Underdark though.

[The Greater Good]

Killing Innocents makes you evil. Full stop. However! A victim of that doctor that is now mentally traumatized and physically wrecked could be a neutral outcast, while Doctor Jack 'the butcher-surgeon of Guld' Sweeney would be an evil one.

Brb rolling up the latter

[xanrael]

Could probably argue on how alignment works for pages so just going to sidestep that argument as I've found people are as set about their views on alignment as much as RL religion or politics.

Could rewrite the concept to be graverobbing of the already dead for research or autopsy without permission of ones failed to be saved. Either of those would still probably lead to a lynch mob.

[Durvayas]

How about we keep them as evil because they belong in Andunor, rather than sencliff and Sibiyad. The latter two are places for ambiguous PCs who want to be edgy but neutral.

We don't need "Woe is me, I'm innocent and misunderstood!" special snowflake outcasts in Andunor.

If your PC is happy to live among the monsters when there is a perfectly good pirate island or lawless desert town as an alternative within easy reach, they should almost certainly be evil.

[Nitro]

Should be noted also that monster PC's can also be neutral without spending any awards. If drow and kobolds can be neutral without supervision it makes sense that outcasts can be to.

[Ebonstar]

I could see a neutral alignment Outcast. Imagine a doctor that kidnaps, kills, and dissects the downtrodden and sick they cannot seem to save to learn more about anatomy and the treatment of diseases. At the same time they employ that knowledge to save the lives they can and begin to write research texts on it.

They're not serving a dark god, trying to open a portal to the Abyss, or gleefully killing people. Heck if one measures time by millennia their research might end up saving 10x more than they killed. If their methods are learned they're probably going to have a lynch mob after them and have to run to the Underdark though.

disecting or desecrating bodies is evil. there are no doctors in faerun, you have clerics

[xanrael]

disecting or desecrating bodies is evil. there are no doctors in faerun, you have clerics

There have certainly been non-clerical physicians in Faerun. Ed Greenwood himself has written about them in "Waterdeep and the North" and a few other places.

[Xerah]

Not everyone can afford magical healing (actually, very few can). Healers, such as doctors, herbalists, alchemist, and the like are much more common.

[Ebonstar]

ok doctors as we know them in modern thought do not exist, doctors from 1500's sure

[Xerah]

Still not true.

[Subutai]

Can someone post an excerpt confirming this, rather than just arguing yes and no back and forth?

[xanrael]

It's getting far off topic but sure:
from Waterdeep and the North book:
"THE GUILD OF APOTHECARIES & PHYSICIANS Master: Unthril Zond (1st level illusionist, Master Physic)"

"Repeatedly the Guild has tried to have all non-member medical practitioners (including all clerics) banned from practicing in Waterdeep, so that they would have to join the Guild or cease providing it with any competition."

"...[bunch of stuff about gp costs] and medical attendance, with nursing, splints, dressings, emergency medicine... [more stuff about gp costs]"

From the 3.5E description of the Heal Skill: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm

Treats poisons, diseases, recovers ability damage and HP, etc. Both in the Lore and mechanically you can treat things without casting clerical spells. Heck the Heal Skill/Kits and the non-magical Pies of Restoration from Herbalism already allow one to play this concept.

I can start spitting out paragraphs on this but figured a few lines was enough and going too deep into it will lead to it being locked.

[Kuma]

I could see a neutral alignment Outcast. Imagine a doctor that kidnaps, kills, and dissects the downtrodden and sick they cannot seem to save to learn more about anatomy and the treatment of diseases. At the same time they employ that knowledge to save the lives they can and begin to write research texts on it.

that is super not neutral

How about we keep them as evil because they belong in Andunor, rather than sencliff and Sibiyad. The latter two are places for ambiguous PCs who want to be edgy but neutral.

We don't need "Woe is me, I'm innocent and misunderstood!" special snowflake outcasts in Andunor.

If your PC is happy to live among the monsters when there is a perfectly good pirate island or lawless desert town as an alternative within easy reach, they should almost certainly be evil.

A very compelling argument. We have plenty of avenues for that kind of RP and Andunor really doesn't feel like it warrants that.

[Ebonstar]

It's getting far off topic but sure:
from Waterdeep and the North book:
"THE GUILD OF APOTHECARIES & PHYSICIANS Master: Unthril Zond (1st level illusionist, Master Physic)"

"Repeatedly the Guild has tried to have all non-member medical practitioners (including all clerics) banned from practicing in Waterdeep, so that they would have to join the Guild or cease providing it with any competition."

"...[bunch of stuff about gp costs] and medical attendance, with nursing, splints, dressings, emergency medicine... [more stuff about gp costs]"

From the 3.5E description of the Heal Skill: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm

Treats poisons, diseases, recovers ability damage and HP, etc. Both in the Lore and mechanically you can treat things without casting clerical spells. Heck the Heal Skill/Kits and the non-magical Pies of Restoration from Herbalism already allow one to play this concept.

I can start spitting out paragraphs on this but figured a few lines was enough and going too deep into it will lead to it being locked.

only bad thing is waterdeep and the north source is from 2nd ed, as much as i love 2nd ed it doesnt apply

[Kuma]

only bad thing is waterdeep and the north source is from 2nd ed, as much as i love 2nd ed it doesnt apply

Wrong, unless something from prior editions is explicitly contradicted in later editions, it is absolutely still canon. Considering "editions" are as much "historical epochs" of a setting as "current canon".

[Mr_Rieper]

I could see a neutral alignment Outcast. Imagine a doctor that kidnaps, kills, and dissects the downtrodden and sick they cannot seem to save to learn more about anatomy and the treatment of diseases. At the same time they employ that knowledge to save the lives they can and begin to write research texts on it.

lol it's fairly prevalent to see people think that the Neutral alignment means "morally questionable but still wants to help people."

When in reality, neutral is the exact opposite.

What you are describing is not neutral.