Barbarian v2.0: "Make you a sword of me!"

[Morderon]

Hrm.. instead of haste, use the same effect that divine power uses to give an extra attack and grant a speed bonus?

[IndifferentPerson]

That's a very good point, divine power is a good alternative, if do-able.

[Scurvy Cur]

Outright sneak immunity might be a little much, because it would protect the barbarian from sneak attacks even when blind or disabled. Defensive Awareness II might work out alright, though, and would fit with the barbarian having some exceptional talent at living through combat, without having the sorts of outright immunity usually reserved for unliving adversaries.

[Mithreas]

- Haste and -4 AC (to offset the +4 from Haste)

What about kensai barbarians? This would basically render them somewhat redundant compared to regular barbarians.

Good point. A divine power type buff will have to do, I think!

[Ork]

- Haste and -4 AC (to offset the +4 from Haste)

What about kensai barbarians? This would basically render them somewhat redundant compared to regular barbarians.

Good point. A divine power type buff will have to do, I think!

To counterpoint, divine power isn't nearly as useful to a full BAB character as divine power shines when attacks per round are less than 4.

base attack bonus improves to that of a fighter of the same level.

Barbarians already have a BAB equal to a fighter.

[The Rambling Midget]

He's saying Divine Power type because Divine Power has the potential to increase a character's attacks per round. Theoretically, with tweaks, it could be another way to increase single-weapon APR beyond four without interfering with the benefits of Haste.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

In your proposed suggestions, Mithreas, you're abolishing the -2 penalty on AC?

I also think removing the stat boosts is a good thing, but I don't see anything that capitalizes on the "take a lot of hits" concept (except the vamp regen? But that doesn't seem to be the same.)

So why not tie temporary hit points to the same scale as the damage shield??

[Urch]

Funnily enough, if the divine power spell was cast by a character with all their levels in a full BAB class, all that is added is extra hitpoints, and their strength is raised to 18 (if it is 18 and above then no change). I tested this with a level 6 paladin. (I added divine power as a paladin level 1 spell).

[Morderon]

In your proposed suggestions, Mithreas, you're abolishing the -2 penalty on AC?

That's how I read it.

I also think removing the stat boosts is a good thing, but I don't see anything that capitalizes on the "take a lot of hits" concept (except the vamp regen? But that doesn't seem to be the same.)

So why not tie temporary hit points to the same scale as the damage shield??

I also find it odd that they no longer get a fort save bonus. Granted if I had to choose between the will save bonus and a fort save bonus I would choose the will save bonus.

I'm also not terribly convinced they're better then the fighter PvE even when raging. Given, comparatively, a level 20 fighter would have +3 AC and flexibility on shield/armor/helmet enhancements and +1 AB.. but weapons aren't as customizable. As for the damage shield, if typed as physical, has to respect even +1 damage reduction unless if it does elemental/energy damage, No idea how much low levels of damage reduction actually come up. Though I've been wrong before and it's still better then what they currently have.

Edit: For my grand list of 'things that make sense when raging': Not that they necessarily have to be. Don't want to overpower the thing nor have to much effort put into it. Nor would all of these even be possible.
Strength (though rejected due to soft cap)
Damage increases
Con (look at strength)
Temporary hit points
Fort saves
Damage mitigation against both physical and elemental (though I like temp hit points better as that means you can't ignore monsters)
Expertise shouldn't be possible (represents technique)
Power attack should have an AB reduction or more damage.
Increase concentration (at least NWN's representation that has to do with ignoring/resisting pain mostly)
Increase discipline
Not really enough int skills to worry about and it's not like you're going to be IDing items mid combat. Though spellcraft reduction
Cleave should turn into a weapon-based circle kick that works (but.. that's not possible)
Increased initiative
.. Depending on critter flight (which is represented by terrifying rage response) or fight response. A wide area -guard that automatically activates for all party members. But that can also be overly damaging for survival. Basically the NPCs just feel that they have to gang up on the barbarian and put it down. Perhaps increases based on how many of the barbarian's opponents are caught in the AoE too?
Size category increase for the purpose of knockdown and resisting knockdown (see increased discipline)
Will save bonus
Increased chance to resist the bigby line of spells (some of these have a very difficult save vs strength that isn't really documented.. nor does it matter given how difficult it is to succede)
Lower duration of holding-type spells and effects that otherwise prevent the barbarian from attacking and fortitude -type effects.

[KregorRanger]

So reading this, I'm thinking of Rage switching out to replace all its existing effects with:
- EDIT: Extra Attack (Gained some way).
- Death Armour style biteback, with the damage scaling with barbarian level (i.e. at level 30, 30hp damage to attackers... or maybe something randomised but still scaling)
- +1 to Will saves for every X barbarian levels
- 100% Arcane Spell Failure
- +1 Vampiric Regen per 3 levels added to currently equipped weapon.

Then to make Rage unlimited uses per day, but with a cooldown of say 10 minutes.

This all sounds thematically perfect to me:

Extra Attack: I am a whirling frenzy when I'm enraged.
Biteback: If you get near me, no matter who I'm fighting, I'll still hit you back.
Will Save: I have no fear and no distraction.
Vampiric Regen: I gain momentum and strength by seeing my foe's blood shed.
Spell Failure: Magic? I do not need wussy magic!
Temp Hitpoints: I do not go down easily when I am in the heat of battle.

Cooldowns vs. Uses: while the latter is PnP appropriate, the harsh reality is we're fitting a turn/based PnP rule into a real-time action game. Cooldowns become more appropriate for this scenario.

Perhaps, in the spirit of scaling by level, have the cooldown start very high at low level, and decrease with progression. This would be a real time approximation of the turn-based tireless rage.

Both the regen and the temp hit points help drive the theme of being the damage soaker as well.

Another thought:
Instead of full time DR (which is mostly negligible, and deters from rage as the key feature, give the barb a stoneskin-like DR only when raging, with a maximum amount based on level, to reflect tiring during battle. Again, this reflects the damage soaker theme.

Another, another thought:
What to do with Mighty Rage, since the old benefits are no more, and the proposed benefits already scale?

[Hunter548]

Mighty Rage no longer grants additional rages, but instead adds extra effects to your rage.? Maybe extra damage per hit, stoneskin-esque effects, an additional attack?

[Morderon]

I prefer temp hit points over damage reduction. Mostly as I want the the barbarian to want the stoneskin of the the party buffer. However, given damage reduction from feats & spells don't stack I would love stoneskin becoming greater stoneskin when cast upon a barbarian of suitable level.

It is possible to link effects to temporary hit points so when the temp hit points expires due to taking enough damage the other effects linked to it expire as well. This could be an interesting mechanic.

[Mithreas]

Temp HPs makes sense. The point of having a damage shield is that it rewards you for getting hit, and temp HPs support that more. Maybe d4 temp HP per level, so a level 30 is going to get 75ish extra HP when they enter rage.

[IndifferentPerson]

Noteworthy, the stoneskin/premonition/etc type DR DOES NOT stacks with barbarian's base DR.

[msterswrdsmn]

A point with vampic regeneration; it doesn't work as intended.

Its supposed to give you hp every time you damage something.

In reality, it fires off at random. As far as I know, there isn't a real pattern as to when it does and doesn't work (like parry) so its hard to know whether it works or not. At the very best, its unreliable.

[Twily]

Parry can block at most 3 attacks per round(the first attack per flurry). If the character is in a "ready" stance(meaning they are in parry, and are not in the middle of another action[this includes blocking a hit or doing a riposte attack]) then a parry roll occurs when you are attacked(if the enemy doesn't roll a 20). If the parry is successful, there's a small animation to block the hit and a riposte attack may occur. If the character is attacked again before the animation for blocking a hit or performing a riposte attack ends, they will not parry that attack. I figured this out after a LOT of experimenting on a parry user. I use Vamp Regen but sadly I still haven't figured out what makes it work yet.

On a more related note: I don't have a ton to add, aside from that I'm liking pretty much every one of these ideas a ton.

[msterswrdsmn]

^ Lol, sorry. To clarify; Parry is buggy as crap, but there is a set formula as to how it works. This is completely unlike vampic regeneration, where theres no rhyme or reason myself or anyone else that plays nwn that I know of has been able to figure out.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

How high can vamp regen go? If you make it a large amount (like +10?), then even if it's random, it can still be significant.

[Morderon]

It can go up to +20.

It also appears to be one of the few properties that can stack on a single weapon. Which means you can have two vamp regens on the same weapon. So, technically the amount you can have is one.

With 2 vamp regens on a weapon my toon regened life every round (only 1 attack). Occasionally both properties activated. And very rarely none of them did.

[Xarge VI]

In that case considering the bug that causes the fighter's bonuses on equipment stack so that they'll have ten +1 ac or ab on their weapon or armor +10 vamp regen would make barbarian practically immortal.

[Hunter548]

Assuming that it fires- As Mstr pointed out, Vamp Regen is buggy at best.

Actually, something I'd love to see for barbarians is something akin to the Warhammer 40k/Warhammer Fantasy chaos boons table. The tl;dr for anyone unfamiliar is that chaos champs get to issue challenges in melee combat, and if they win, they get a magic buff for the rest of the game (Anywhere from turning into a blob, to demonic apotheosis).

No idea if it's scriptable, but how about something akin to this: Whenever the Barbarian kills something he's taunted, he makes a d100 roll. 0-X number, nothing happens. The rest of the breakdown of the dice gives him buffs of varying potency, that last for Y amount of time. (Con modifier rounds or minutes?) Anything from extra attacks, to haste, to clarity, to DR, etc etc, with a roll of 100 being something nutty like a full heal + doubled BAB? Effects and duration up to dev discretion, obviously. Maybe tie it to rage duration?

This'd make a really cool perk for blackguards too, actually..

[Faye]

[IndifferentPerson]

hrrrgn been holding back on making a new character only waiting for this update, mith pls

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Did some playtesting with vamp regen:

With a bronze weapon with +1 vamp regen, out of 24 "hits", 15 did not trigger vamp regen, and 9 did.

What you're meaning to say, Morderon, is that if you a bronze weapon with -two- +1 vamp regens, it should trigger more often? (That vampire regeneration enchantments stack?)

Increased vamp regen, in that case, could work well with a "haste rage".

[Morderon]

It did for me. I was meaning to test how well it would work with two attacks per round.

I also had the NPC's AC set so low my toon couldn't miss without rolling a 1.