Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

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Scylon
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Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Scylon »

Thought I would put this out to the people before I submitted something on the suggestion forum.

I am doing my 1st play on the server as a Wizard. One thing I found is now that I have reached 9th circle spells, the summons are a bit meh. Even taking GSF in both conjuration and Transmutation I am finding the spells for Gate and Black Blade to be basically worthless. Let me explain:

As as caster for PVE I rely very heavy on my summon/dominated creatures. Unlike the true flame I can only cast a spell here and there, as the "free spells" I get from GSF are basically bee stings at my level. They were fantastic for leveling, but you'll hit a point where they become useless. If I was to cast my spells on every pull I would be empty after a few groups, and likely dead cause I would pull agro fro everything. Summon Creature IX is good. The Earth elemental is just awful, Water and air have good survive-ably, but don't hit very hard, while I found fire to be by far the best. Unless I get fire on the cast, I replace it with Mods-Sword which is 2 spell levels lower. With and empowered bulls and a sword buff I am finding this guy to perform 2nd best only to the IX fire elemental.

As for Gate/Black Blade (and by over flow summon dragon) they have serous drawbacks making them undesirable. The issues are:

- The short duration only last rounds. At my level I think I worked it out to be a minute and a half each.
- It replaces my current pet, potentially costing 3 spells (lose my current, gate itself, and replacing pet one it is gone)
- Its not that much of an upgrade

In a nutshell, for a pet that is a moderately better then Mords sword and slightly better then a buffed flame elemental for a minute or 2, I lose my current pet and a 9th level spell slot.

The 3 potential solutions I have thought of are:

1) Make the spells take up a unique slot so they don't replace my pet or dominated and otherwise leave them unchanged. So you'll get a minute > 2 having an "extra" for a powerful summon.

or

2) Make them last rounds normally, but with GFS or ESF in transmutation or Conjuring make it Turns. Getting all the way to 9th level spells to have them disappear is a little depressing. Making them turns would bring them inline with all previous iterations of the spells.

or

3) Both the previous 2 if you have ESF. Though, think this one would be too overpowered, but thought I'd mention it as I did think of it originally. Maybe with haks this could be an option at the cost of an Epic feat?


Any way, what dose everyone else think about these spells and offered solutions?
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Orian_666 »

The topic of summons comes up from time to time and I hate to sound blunt or rude but the general consensus is that they're absolutely fine as they are.

Just to preface, I mostly play mages, almost all of my characters were/are casters, and in fact one of them (a weave master back in the day) was explicitly a conjurer and that's how I RP'd him, I even had him learn the lower level planar binding spells (taking up very important Sorcerer spell slots) simply for the sake of RPing him as a conjurer, it was his only school of focus. He was even active when the "-stream" system was implemented and was one of the prominent characters at the time in testing them, the strengths and weaknesses of each choice at varying levels.

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A few points though in response, of course :)

First of all I agree completely that the Earth Ele is terrible by comparison to the others. It has 2 extra DR over the other elementals and a lot more health, but honestly with its considerably lower AC that 2 extra DR, in most cases, means absolutely nothing. it does hit very hard, but so does the fire elemental which has far more AC and only 2 less DR so it's by far the better option over earth.

Water is arguably the best, but one of the slower, solo farming options simply because it has a nice balance in all areas albeit low damage but mostly because it has regen it means there's very little downtime or healing costs.

Air is the most situational, a fully buffed air elemental can be used as an extremely powerful and effective pocket AC tank, i've used it to tank some of the harder end game bosses and it survived the fight to the end (even when solo, storm giant for example).

So all in all the elementals are in a fine place right now except maybe the earth, if they were any stronger then it'd simply be a bit broken, they should be weaker than PCs and the fact that they can solo most content (with a bit of help from their summoner) is perfectly fine, even if it's not 100% perfectly efficiently.
Oh, one more note, fire is by far the best choice in PvP out of them all, it does great damage per hit and has bite back which is important because none of them will effectively stand toe to toe with a player for too long if they aren't dismissed so you may as well get that bite back damage in there.

It should also be noted that you can get books to learn the elemental (and other summon) streams, you said "Unless I get fire on the cast, I replace it with Mods-Sword", you can learn how to get any one you want 100% guaranteed every time, ask around in game ;)

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On to gate and BBOD.
The reason these spells are on such a short duration is simply because they are so strong.

Gate:
I stated that the elementals can't, and shouldn't, stand toe to toe with a player character, well the summons from Gate in many situations can, which is an example of how strong they are. They're not meant to be used to farm and level in areas for a long duration, they're a panic button to save your Snuggybear if your elemental dies and you need something right then and there that can pack a punch and take a hit without needing 2 minutes of buffing to be viable. They are stronger, thus their duration is shorter, it's a very simple equation.

You said "Its not that much of an upgrade", granted when you take duration into consideration that's true, but in terms of performance, stats, and how strong they are by comparison they are an extreme upgrade, i've often seen a Deva almost beat an EDK dragon in a 1v1 situation, that's really impressive considering the EDK dragon is an epic feat/spell. Gate is fine where it is and doesn't need a change.

The only thing you suggested that i'd partially consider to be a good change (and may now be possible since HaKs are a thing) would be that it takes up a separate slot to your summon and can be summoned in conjunction, but this I feel would make casters much stronger than they currently are, or need to be, i'd suggest making the duration even lower than it is now if this were to be implemented, maybe around half the duration.

BBOD:
BBOD is by and large one of the most broken summons/spells/attacks in the game and i'll tell you why..... Greater Sanctuary.

Extended Greater Sanctuary + BBOD is a very simple combination that wizards can use to almost certainly win most fights they get into, PvE or PvP (so long as the PvP is 1v1). It is immune to all damage, has the AB and damage output of a strong PC fighter, is hasted so it'll easily chase down most things that run, and as long as you don't cast other spells which breaks concentration you can just sit back and watch it kill enemies that can do almost nothing against it. Admittedly it does have a couple weaknesses, most of those a nullified when the caster uses Extend:GS in advance, and the only one left is absolutely FOIG. For example Word of Faith, the be all end all of getting rid of pesky summons... doesn't work against BBOD, that's how strong and useful it can be!! In fact i'm fairly certain it's the only summon in the game that WoF (easily the BEST spell for getting rid of summons) doesn't work on.

Wanna farm a specific location but cba clearing out the trash by wasting too many spells/summons/etcetc? Use an extended GS, or in a lot of places an extended Imp Invis, summon BBOD, and let it go to town on the enemies in the area while you get to work on gathering up their riches (IE. Duergar in the Duergar library can't see invis and there are a lot of valuable books in that place, usually. This is just one example of the many uses it has.)

About to lose a fight to a tough boss, your EDK was already used and your summon just died? Slap on that extended GS and summon the BBOD and watch as the terrifying boss just accepts its faith and dies without even being able to put up a fight against this immortal sword that's just beating it to death.

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Many of the summons in the game are situational, especially the shorter duration ones like Gate and BBOD, but thankfully with such a huge and varied selection of places to go, things to do and see, and events that happen on Arelith I think you'll find that over time there are more than enough of these situations to make it clear that Gate and BBOD are perfectly fine as they are.
Last edited by Orian_666 on Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Twily »

Gate, I think is extremely good, almost too good even, and I use it very frequently.

The duration isn't great and I haven't messed with every stream, but the power of the summons that I have used from it far exceed elementals.
It's not really meant to be a regular summon, but more a strong specialty mob that can be varied to best fit the situation.

The deva as one example, can cast word of faith, and always casts it(if it's not on cooldown) before approaching enemies. This predictable behavior from a hastened mob effective makes it very easy for an arcanist to cast a controlled word of faith onto a group of enemies, while simultaneously conjuring up a summon with nearly nearly 40 AB, 5 attacks per round, capable of hitting for 30-40 damage(with crits regularlly over 100).

The white slaad is the only other one I've used, it doesn't have the word of faith, but it's extreme regen makes it surprisingly tanky(especially if you throw an ImpInvis on it), while allowing it to still lay out damage comparable to the deva.

I can't speak for any of the other streams as I haven't had the chance to try them.


-------------------

Black Blade however, I find very lackluster.
The damage it deals is low compared to Gate and elementals, and while it can't be attacked or harmed in any way, it also means everything targets the mage instead, unless you have party members.
Stack that with the inability to cast spells without losing it(unless you're hasted and have a bit of luck on your side), and it ends up being worse than Gate or an elemental in almost all situations.

The only situation I've seen Black Blade be good in is one I feel incredibly cheesy; which is what Orian_666 described above. Staying invisible or under sanctuary and using black blades to chop up a flat footed enemy. Although that said, I have used this tactic before, but it felt wrong to me, there was no skill, no talent, no difficulty; Like taking candy from a baby.

I would definitely advocate for a change to this spell, likely one that makes it stronger, but also keeps the concentration check and makes it able to be attacked/destroyed.
Perhaps having it be near immune to physical damage(90-95%?), but vulnerable to magic damage, or some other thing that still leaves it a niche use.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Vrass »

All ancient elementals except (for some unknowable reason) earth get dr 15+5... really should give earth the same amount as the others. Without it they simply do not survive against epic mobs.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Orian_666 »

Vrass wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:56 am All ancient elementals except (for some unknowable reason) earth get dr 15+5... really should give earth the same amount as the others. Without it they simply do not survive against epic mobs.
Ancient Earth Elementals do get the DR 15/+5, the difference between them and the others is they get 2/- on top of that so technically when hit with a weapon/attack that's +4 or below they reduce the damage by 17, while the other elementals reduce it by 15 (excluding DI, which they also have more of of course but that's not the issue).
At least that's how I think it works.
Granted they also have higher physical immunity but the others have their immunities too, the main issue is that their AC is so low that 2 extra DR means practically nothing when they get hit so much more often, in most cases by those levels by enemies that do more than 15 - 17 damage per hit, so they actually end up dying faster than their higher AC counter parts even though as far as I can see they're designed to be "tankier" lol.
Last edited by Orian_666 on Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Peppermint »

FWIW, when I reworked the summons, I never intended for the Gate spell to be something you'd use when you solo. Rather, it's the summon you keep on hand in parties in case you need one in a pinch.

Yes, a fully-buffed elemental will generally perform better, but you don't typically want to use a fully-buffed elemental in a party.

I do think the earth elemental needs a slight buff. Bumping its DR up to a flat 15/+5 might be a worthy experiment.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Scylon »

I suppose I haven't done enough endgame of PVP to know about some of the gimmicks. Myself, I can't actually cast GS :P (prohibited school). Please note I'm looking at this all from a PvE perspective. I would wager based on my lack of knowledge when i find myself in a PVP situation I'll be quickly walloped :D.

The general vibe is from what I am seeing thus far:

- BB is an OP tool in PVP, but kind of meh in PVE.
- Gate is powerful cause it is supposed to be short duration.

Regarding gate, I still feel like it should tweaked with one of my suggestions, especially if you spend feats to do it (maybe a new custom summoners feat? If you are a Black Guard for example you get a stronger version of it permanently. On top of that you yourself are a very powerful warrior who can pump out hits with even a non enchanted weapon for 30 non crit. So, non haste 120 per round with out a crit. As a caster (excluding roll of death spells) I'm lucky to get 50-60 per spell? Yes I can hit a little harder (up to 150 I think) but only a couple of times. While the black guard or warlock can continue to eat me alive.

Any hoot, please keep em coming. I'm curious to see if the general trend so far continues. It's highly likely I'm not looking at this correctly I'm suspecting now.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by RedGiant »

Scylon wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:55 am If you are a Black Guard for example you get a stronger version of it permanently. On top of that you yourself are a very powerful warrior who can pump out hits with even a non enchanted weapon for 30 non crit. So, non haste 120 per round with out a crit. As a caster (excluding roll of death spells) I'm lucky to get 50-60 per spell? Yes I can hit a little harder (up to 150 I think) but only a couple of times. While the black guard or warlock can continue to eat me alive.

Any hoot, please keep em coming. I'm curious to see if the general trend so far continues. It's highly likely I'm not looking at this correctly I'm suspecting now.
You've put your finger on the pulse of a problem that I have long talked about, namely that the trade off in NWN used to be that that arcane casters could output a ton of damage, going from literally no threat in the beginning lvls to being a true threat/foil to almost any class in the end. Another trade off was that they could generally pull this off once per rest. This is not what they are on Arelith, and your summation is as accurate as any.


To BBoD and Gate, I've never been a fan of the idea of "burst summons", but we have it nonetheless and I understand the reasons. That being said, I would agree with you the duration is pretty useless at 17. I would like to something done here for these summons, and probably the sanest answer would be to treat them like Dragon Knight and bump them to 2rd/lvl.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by WJLIII3 »

Worth remembering BBoD forces a Save or Die on hit. Its a brutally powerful spell in either context just....boring, and only for jobs it has the time for.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Kalopsia »

WJLIII3 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:19 pm Worth remembering BBoD forces a Save or Die on hit. Its a brutally powerful spell in either context just....boring, and only for jobs it has the time for.
I'd just like to add that this save or die checks for spell resistance, and 28 SR blocks it entirely (unless the modified BBoD summon uses a different caster level than NWN default).
See also: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Planar_rift
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Orian_666 »

WJLIII3 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:19 pm Worth remembering BBoD forces a Save or Die on hit. Its a brutally powerful spell in either context just....boring, and only for jobs it has the time for.
I think this describes the spell perfectly, lol.
Brutally powerful, but boring!!
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by RedGiant »

Another solution here would be to use a crazy formula like the new wand formula or just set it at a flat 30rds for any caster.

The summons are fine and fill their role, the issue is, IMO, the duration.

I remember the first time I got the new gate. I went out to the Sibyad Orcs, summoned a White Slaad, threw a few buffs on it, went through the transition, only to watch it desummon midway through the first group.

We should also not forget these summons routinely get stuck trying to cast their CDs, often costing you several rounds. At level 17, your duration really can't afford this 'feature.'
Last edited by RedGiant on Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Scylon »

Even at level 30 it would still be not much of an improvement.

Maybe Minutes per level would be a bit more tame? 17 minutes is long enough to keep it around for a little while, but still worthy of a 9th spell slot. If you want to keep it up long term, you have to keep replacing it with level 9 spell slots. This would star becoming expensive when you are lower level, being cheaper as you get in the high 20's due to a slightly longer duration.

Alternatively if the consent is for a "burst pet" which I also go agree with too much, I'd say make it work in conjunction with the current.

My preference is the 1st however as I think having a high tier pet + gate pet would be really over powered.


Regarding BBoD, that one I think needs to be treated separately. Possibly reworked totally as the more I hear about it, the more OP is sounds for PvP.

One possible Idea is a human sized high DR/immunity golem holding the sword (not invincible and to keep with it being BBoD somewhat). Not sure though that one is harder to think about then Gate.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Orian_666 »

Scylon wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:00 pm One possible Idea is a human sized high DR/immunity golem holding the sword (not invincible and to keep with it being BBoD somewhat). Not sure though that one is harder to think about then Gate.
The problem with this is that BBOD isn't actually a sword, it just uses a sword model in game, it's actually a planar rift that the wizard controls to attack their enemies.
That's why it can't be "removed" through most conventional means, and why it's immortal, and why it has a chance to 1 shot people.
Making it an item that's held would go against the entire description of the spell.

Personally like i've said already I think both Gate and BBOD are in a fine position as they are, but I wouldn't be against suggestions to minor changes and what not for them, I just had to chime in on this one though, sorry for being the bubble burster :lol:
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Scylon »

Sorry, I think I worded my BBoD suggestion wrong.

I mean it would still be a summon. Just with something holding it that can be targeted. Giving that construct high Dr and immunities but not total invincibility
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Orian_666 »

Oh no no, I got what you meant.
But what I was saying simply is that, lore wise, it's not something that can be "held" because it doesn't technically have a physical form.
It's a planar right, if something tried to touch it they'd quite literally lose their hand, or straight up die failing the Save, lol.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by WJLIII3 »

Eh, its magic. I mean, 2e BBoD was exactly the same physical object, but the wizard held it in hand and made melee attacks with it. You just incant the spell in such a way that either the hilt is safe or your hand can touch planar rifts.

Also, for what its worth, already right now there is an invisible construct holding the sword. Swords aren't creature models. There's just a human model with no textures applied carrying the sword, with construct traits and damage immunity.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Peppermint »

RedGiant wrote:I remember the first time I got the new gate. I went out to the Sibyad Orcs, summoned a White Slaad, threw a few buffs on it, went through the transition, only to watch it desummon midway through the first group.
... Why are you trying to take time to buff it? That's not the point of the summon at all. It's no wonder it didn't last for you.

Temporary summons are not meant to be elementals+. They're fire and forget. They're the summon equivalent of a fireball. If you're not using them for the niche they were designed for, then of course they're going to suck, and you only have yourself to blame when they despawn 'early'.

(Though I agree the spells could be tweaked. IMO, make them instant but restrict their casts to once per round.)
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by RedGiant »

RedGiant wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:05 pm I remember the first time I got the new gate.
This was why: inexperience with the new summons and the long-ingrained habits of someone who played multiple summoners. But, by a few quick buffs, I mean like bulls and mage armor, because high end content still tears some of these up. (I still do this btw, but now its while they are running and gunning.)

The force of the comment was more to say, 17 rounds is awfully quick especially given their CD stutters mentioned above. You're average 17th lvl wizard will just tuck that spell away until well into epics. I really think that if they were 2 rds/lvl, though, you could call it a day even as they are now.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Scylon »

If the logic is fire and forget, then I think they need to stay as they are but not make my current summon disappear.

But the idea of a fire and forget summon is a bit odd to me. As a wizard who is invested in summoning/control, I would think I'd be able to hold him a bit longer then a minute. As stated before having a gate specific feat to enhance duration would be worth it.

As it is now, it's not really worth casting. When I am high enough level to get 25+ rounds I would use the Dragon.

Another idea might be to tie a longer duration to the enchantment GSF/ESF. Most wizards have it on their excluded list as they pick illusion. Also it should be made impossible to take spell foci in your restricted school.

Just spinning ideas here.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Peppermint »

I don't think the concept is odd. Heck, that's how summons (i.e. all summons) work in PnP. 24 hour summons are the outlier here.

Regardless, you're not going to use a standard summon in group content. That's when temporary summons are designed to be used--when you're not using a standard summon anyway. They're not going to be good when soloing, no. You'd want an elemental for that.

EDK does replace it, but that's intentional. EDK is designed to fill the same niche as Gate. When you have EDK, of course you'd no longer cast Gate, for much the same reason you'd no longer cast Summon Creature VIII when you have Summon Creature IX.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc »

Black Blade is very useful, a wizard of mine soloed final room of titans ascent with the double bosses using them after other party member died.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Scylon »

The more I hear about BBoD the more I think that one is OP and might need to be nerfed. And I'm playing a mage myself.

The general theme for gate seems to lean towards a slight tweak for duration, or no change at all.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Orian_666 »

BBOD is very powerful, I agree, but it's also incredibly situational, on top of that not being able to cast without losing it is a massive drawback.
Honestly all in all it's very balanced when you consider the pros and cons, for example the GS + BBOD combo is wicked in PvP, and even PvE, but even though BBOD is immortal and can't be desummoned through regular means it still does have it's counters, i'm going to leave those as FOIG because I feel it's very important information, but it does help bring it into balance considering it's strengths.
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Re: Gate/black Blade Spells - Wizard/Sorc

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername »

*Shifty eyes*

Play a necromancer. You get 3 summons who are easily buffed. Perfect for PVE.
(>^.^)>) * * * *<(^.^<) <-Magic missles and shield spell.
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