The Big UMD Change Thread

[-stick-]

33 + 10 esf lore instead of discipline + some points in int and some on items will get to 50

[Subutai]

Even so, without Mord's to knock down SR, WoF isn't going to be super useful. The Mord's + WoF combo is one of the primary ways mundanes could (previously) be somewhat effective against a caster. Building and gearing specifically for 50 Lore still leaves mundanes in the lurch.

Maybe this has been semi-rectified by grind-required rods, but who knows what those even do, since currently it's FOIG for some reason.

[14All]

Still can't find a rogue willing to circle-grind for rods with me for the next 6 hours.

[-stick-]

its even better for mundane since its a global skill for all classes

so anyone could reach 50

I had a lot of stacks of time stop, mord and WOF the only one I really used were WOF but I can live with the lose

besides having 50lore should be fun understanding every language and all that

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So, wait, you can skip umd and there is going to be loot usable by anyone letting a fighter get the next tier of bonuses, and somehow this is a buff to wizards? You guys always tout your knowledge of the game, and often you are spot on but every once in a while something happens that makes me question your tunnel vision. The only difference is that people are not going to have stacks of scrolls and will actually have to find the loot, assuming some of these items are going to be high level spells on a stick. Its too soon to say for sure without knowing what these rods are going to be, but I have a feeling that the exact opposite of what is being predicted here will actually be true.

[Wrips]

I'd gladly spend 16 (even less on divine builds) points on UMD to cast from scrolls than be subject to whims of the dreaded RNG, especially considering tumble dump is still mandatory on melee builds.

Let's suppose you are the traditional 20/7/3 WM. A wizard or cleric summons a dracolich. What do you do now?

[Subutai]

So, wait, you can skip umd and there is going to be loot usable by anyone letting a fighter get the next tier of bonuses, and somehow this is a buff to wizards? You guys always tout your knowledge of the game, and often you are spot on but every once in a while something happens that makes me question your tunnel vision. The only difference is that people are not going to have stacks of scrolls and will actually have to find the loot, assuming some of these items are going to be high level spells on a stick. Its too soon to say for sure without knowing what these rods are going to be, but I have a feeling that the exact opposite of what is being predicted here will actually be true.

Many mundane builds will still need to take bard/rogue dips (or monk, I guess) for the Tumble AC, assuming that wands become useless due to scrolls/rods. In that case, since Discipline isn't really needed anymore either, builds that have high AC from spells, Divine Shield, etc., won't need to dip at all, while builds that do need the AC will still need to dip. Weapon Master, for example, was in a very nice spot kind of in the middle of the pack in terms of power before this change, but will now move further down because they'll still have to lose three fighter levels to keep their AC in a decent place.

[Eters]

I'd gladly spend 16 (even less on divine builds) points on UMD to cast from scrolls than be subject to whims of the dreaded RNG, especially considering tumble dump is still mandatory on melee builds.

Let's suppose you are the traditional 20/7/3 WM. A wizard or cleric summons a dracolich. What do you do now?

You run.

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

So, wait, you can skip umd and there is going to be loot usable by anyone letting a fighter get the next tier of bonuses, and somehow this is a buff to wizards? You guys always tout your knowledge of the game, and often you are spot on but every once in a while something happens that makes me question your tunnel vision. The only difference is that people are not going to have stacks of scrolls and will actually have to find the loot, assuming some of these items are going to be high level spells on a stick. Its too soon to say for sure without knowing what these rods are going to be, but I have a feeling that the exact opposite of what is being predicted here will actually be true.

i'll pvp you for the loot after the restart

[Wrips]

You run.

Looks balanced.

[Bees in Space]

This is seriously baffling. The only characters who are scraping the 80 lore necessary for 9th level scrolls without major sacrifices elsewhere are wizards, arguably the class that should be casting from scrolls the least. What exactly was the issue that this update fixed? Was there a flood of level 3 characters buying summon creature vi scrolls and clearing out the cordor sewers for the paltry exp they'd get and a net gold loss?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So, wait, you can skip umd and there is going to be loot usable by anyone letting a fighter get the next tier of bonuses, and somehow this is a buff to wizards? You guys always tout your knowledge of the game, and often you are spot on but every once in a while something happens that makes me question your tunnel vision. The only difference is that people are not going to have stacks of scrolls and will actually have to find the loot, assuming some of these items are going to be high level spells on a stick. Its too soon to say for sure without knowing what these rods are going to be, but I have a feeling that the exact opposite of what is being predicted here will actually be true.

Many mundane builds will still need to take bard/rogue dips (or monk, I guess) for the Tumble AC, assuming that wands become useless due to scrolls/rods. In that case, since Discipline isn't really needed anymore either, builds that have high AC from spells, Divine Shield, etc., won't need to dip at all, while builds that do need the AC will still need to dip. Weapon Master, for example, was in a very nice spot kind of in the middle of the pack in terms of power before this change, but will now move further down because they'll still have to lose three fighter levels to keep their AC in a decent place.

WMs will likely need a guard to be at its best for sure, but picture a group with a WM and a 25/5 fighter rogue or a 30 fighter as the tank. Options are a good thing, and this change might look murky at the moment but overall I think its going in the right direction based on the addition of consumables. Hell, it might even work out better for the mundanes because the cls of the rods can be tweaked on rarer stuff making a rod of dismissal actually better then a scroll to use an easy example.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So, wait, you can skip umd and there is going to be loot usable by anyone letting a fighter get the next tier of bonuses, and somehow this is a buff to wizards? You guys always tout your knowledge of the game, and often you are spot on but every once in a while something happens that makes me question your tunnel vision. The only difference is that people are not going to have stacks of scrolls and will actually have to find the loot, assuming some of these items are going to be high level spells on a stick. Its too soon to say for sure without knowing what these rods are going to be, but I have a feeling that the exact opposite of what is being predicted here will actually be true.

i'll pvp you for the loot after the restart

For sure, but I might be a little late. Just wait for me and we can get down.

[Brandon Steel]

I just cannot understand pushing out essentially half of an update that completely destroys any semblance of balance between the classes on the server. Yes a change is coming soon, but why? Why not just release the entire thing together?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

If monks still had good sr to counter mages and rogue could attack wizards before talking, it be a cool rock paper siccors.

That being said, a bard is literslly a field control master now. Shutting down lore and umd skill. Using any scroll themselves, super buffing and debuffing all martial classes and making sure tjag one knockdown works. But when everyone spams bards it becomes an issue of who casts bards song/curse first because of NWN scripting.

[Aethan]

Newsflash: 80 lore is still a reachable, if totally unreasonable, number for many builds.

What's that mean? It means all the mundanes can stay relevant, for a heavy "tax", of course. Most folks I know, including myself, have already worked out methods to get there on our existing builds.

That begs the question, what's the point? Now, during my rebuild, I swap out a couple feats that I no longer need, dump points in lore, replace rogue with specialist (losing evasion, yes), and spend unknown hours grinding to replace each piece of my gear with +X lore equivalents.

The end result.. any relevant melees can keep their builds more or less, at the cost of being forced to spend more time grinding and throwing crap in the basin. Eventually leading right back to original issue this was trying (for no good reason other than asthetics) to fix - mundanes will still be reading level 9 scrolls. It will still be the only way to make them viable if they wish to PvP with any sort of effectiveness resembling a reasonable chance. RNG rods won't change it unless they drop as often healing potions.

So, all this to get everyone mad, some people leaving or deleting established and interesting characters... When we'll be in the same meta more or less, once everyone regears.

Seems to me that's very unnecessary.

[Nitro]

If monks still had good sr to counter mages and rogue could attack wizards before talking, it be a cool rock paper siccors.

To be fair, the pure SR monk became a lot more viable with this, because they don't need to cross class to use scrolls anymore.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Okay, I'm now not at work, so I can actually put a post in this thread...

It is an unwise idea to look at any given change entirely on its own terms. When making an analysis of something, you need to put it in context - Both historical context and looking at current state of play.

Over the time I've been playing here, there have been a number of changes which have been unfavourable towards melee and mundane builds. This goes back to the changes to the Heal skill and the removal of resto pots/raise scrolls from NPC merchants (both changes were a considerable economic and quality of life hit to melee in general)... The addition of adamantine to masterly damask recipe (coupled, conveniently, with the of the easiest location to pick up addy, and the removal of reliable spawns of materials). These economic and QoL hits have been offset somewhat by making it possible for mundane builds to enchant their own gear - Albeit at a feat cost that certain builds (wizards) do not have to make.

While these changes have been vaguely frustrating for those playing melee builds, they have not fundamentally altered the pvp balance between melee and spellcasters. It has been generally accepted that conjuration (or any summoning) spellcasters have an easier/cheaper time levelling than everything else, and for the most part this has just been accepted as the way things are, because while this confers an advantage in the rate at which these characters can hit their maximum mechanical potential (and thus can exert "hard influence" more swiftly), at least the eventuual engame balance has been more or less consistent.

This changed with the ill-advised monk update Mk.1, where a very specific melee build was turned into a solo powerhouse in both pve and pvp. That is something that was set right, eventually... And it is a very good job that it was set right.

Balance is really really really important. I know that there are those who say that "it is not, because this is an RP server", however, those people are incorrect. When one class or a group of classes are significantly better than another or a set of others, it leads to that class, build, weapon, or whathaveyou dominating the RP landscape. If monks are alll-powerful, and dominate the RP landscape by virtue of being more easily able to exercise hard power, then we see lawful roleplay dominate the RP landscape, with fewer means of recourse from others. If blackguards are made incredibly powerful, then likewise, but with evil. If paladins are made incredibly powerful, then lawful good agendas dominate the RP landscape... And if rangers are made into unstoppable powerhouses, then everyone ends up hugging trees.

Balance does not just provide balance between classes in pvp, but it provides balance and variation in population. If a class is easier and more fun to play than another, then you can pretty much guarantee there will be an absolute shitload of 'em around, and they'll more rapidly put themselves in positions of influence. If the game is unbalanced, it leads to build homogenisation, and stagnant roleplay landscapes.

With this contextuallisation in mind, lets consider what the effects of this recent change will be.

It is nearly impossible for a mundane or melee build to remove an EDK from a fight. The standard means of doing this are hitting the EDK with a mordekainen's disjunction scroll to reduce its spell resistance, and then following up with a word of faith scroll. This combination gives the melee character a 45% chance of removing the EDK from the battlefield. If the melee character fails to do this, it has spent two rounds of actions for no gain, and has probably lost a lot of HP for it. HOWEVER... The melee character at least has a reasonable mechanism for removing the big nasty summon.

To do this now, the melee character needs to hit 80 lore OR needs to rely in random number generation and chest loot in order to obtain the gear to do so.


This is a problem. Why? Because the spellcaster does not rely on random number generation in order to have the EDK in the first place - The EDK is guaranteed to be there as a tool.

The same is true of any spellcaster that has acccess to a meaty 32 SR summon.

They simply have that as an integral part of the character. They don't have to spend anything for it, they don't have to trawl through loot chests, they don't have to cross their fingers when they unlock stuff (requiring, hilariously, chestloot items, expensive gear+skill investment or scrolls/wands to open - Something wizards and sorcs can do with their baked-in familiar at no cost to their combat efffectiveness). It's just something they have.

When you have a system where one group of characters has to rely on random loot drops to get to full effectiveness and another group does not have to rely on random drops to get to full effectiveness, we have a MASSIVE imbalance.

Now... Do we remember when monks had unbreachable SR, reasonable AB and damage and very good AC? Remember how we eventually nerfed them?

The reason people are saying "this looks like it wasn't thought through" is precisely because it introduces a huge imbalance between classes and groups of classes. It isn't because they're trying to shit on people's work or be mean and nasty... It's because the problems inherent within the new system are very easy to detect to anyone who sits down and thinks it through for a moment.

I know that perhaps there is an attempt at making it so "magic characters are magical and non-magic character are not-magical". That's fine. Do that if you want... But please please please please please please please please understand that balance is essential to the health of the game, community and roleplay... And reconsider this update with that in mind.

There hs been a lot of rhetoric lately which has been rather unpleasent toward those who consider the mechanics of the game - And this unpleasentness has come from the top: "Thankfully we don't have a balance team any more" and the suchlike... It strikes me that balance and mechanical awareness is being turned into some sort of dark art... Something forbidden and bad - Something only studied and considered by people uninterested in RP...

I am interested in balance and mechanical awareness precisely because I am a roleplayer, and because I want people to be able to play in an evironment which facilitates roleplay and offers people the opportunity to make an impact and be significant, rather than only offering that to a particular set of character archetypes.

The arelith tendency to focus on symptoms and not the root cause of problems is manifest again in this thread. The issue isn't so much this update - We can pick and pull that apart endlessly (and frankly it'll probably be fixed in time, reluctantly and with a boatload of strange communication) - The problem is the attitude that says "Oh balance doesn't matter" or "people who consider the mechanics of something are just obstructions to our vision and concept".

While that attitude remains, these sorts of ill-advised updates will keep happening.

I would say that I'm glad to be playing a wizard at the moment - But in truth I am not. Instead I feel a little bit guilty.

[Irongron]

Okay, I'm now not at work, so I can actually put a post in this thread...

While I'm not currently taking part in the discussion here I am reading when I have time, and I have to say this was an excellent and insightful post, on not just this, but the broader subject of handling class balance.

Really glad you took the time to write it.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Really glad you took the time to write it.

[Eo Vew]

When Monk was OP, I didn't see an overabundance of monks. Certainly not to the extent the entire server RP went Lawful.

I think people are overreacting.

I am sure it's unpopular to say right now, but I support the Dev Team. You guys are only being hit by the people who emotionally disagree with what you did. Not everyone hates the change.

You're already moving to add things to the game to alleviate people's fears, while still bringing down something that, no matter what anyone says, was wholly overpowered.

It's much easier to join a group of people complaining against something that has had a negative impact on you than it is to applaud something publicly that you don't disagree with. The latter simply has no incentive for you.

I encourage others to be more encouraging of the DM team, despite our disputatious tendencies.

[Aodh Lazuli]

When Monk was OP, I didn't see an overabundance of monks. Certainly not to the extent the entire server RP went Lawful.

Oh come on... We can all reduce an argument to the point of absurdity by sucking out the nuance and subtlety from it. Nobody thinks that the entire server will be x, or that y will die out entirely - But instead, imbalance leads to tendencies in certain directions.

[Ork]

Aodh, I couldn't agree more with everything in that post. I think it surmises my frustrations entirely, and while I haven't been the fondest of this update I think that yes a good portion of us are reacting emotionally to the change. Balance is really important, and a good reason why Arelith has enjoyed such popularity. It has one of the most unique systems out of any RPG, and for people who've been here for a multitude of years, it kept us interested.

[-XXX-]

IMO the real puzzle here seems to be figuring out the right balance between classes with infinite and finite offensive potential.
I guess that finding it without a little bit of experimentation might be impossible. Especially when taking the continual additions of new content and mechanics into account.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Okay, I'm now not at work, so I can actually put a post in this thread...

Balance is very important. That's a different conversation then whether or not people put so much emphasis on pure power builds that they are actively telling people they are doing it wrong if they choose to play something less powerful but fun or tweak some of the stats because they feel like their weapons master needs a 12 charisma to feel right to them, or that the current pvp meta is some sort of sacred cow that can't be touched without the sky falling down. But ultimately I think most people agree that balance is VERY important.

Where we differ is that I look at these changes and see a pathway to a new world that is just as balanced as the old one once the tweaks and additions are finalized, and offers more variety in the choices you can make on what sort of build you want. I get it if you don't see it yet or don't have the same faith that someone who puts as much work into something as the dev team does actually has its best interests at heart that I do, but that's where my head was as soon as I read these changes and I think ultimately once everything is said and done the game will be better as a whole because of this new direction. The cliché "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet" fits rather nicely here.

As far as the balancing team goes, I have no idea what happened with the one here, but I do have some experience with that sort of thing. The server I used to dm for had another dm that tried something like this, but after a few weeks ended up booting the smartest people mechanically in the group out of it. It's not because he thought they were stupid, but rather because they didn't get what their role was. As the developer (we weren't fancy with different divisions, we all did whatever we could as dms) he had ideas, and the balance team was there to help him make it work. Often they took their role to be telling him he was doing everything wrong, often citing how long they have been playing the game and how leet they were at pvp and know better then everyone. Needless to say after a few conversations like that he had had enough, and went forward with the people that may not have been as mechanically inclined as the originals, but were far more effective because he just needed them to push his new ideas to an extreme. Not tell him how wrong he was before even trying it. As I said in the beginning of this paragraph, I have no idea how things went down here, but if it was in any way similar to some of the posts in this thread I suspect my story is relevant.