Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
As a side suggestion, a few ideas;
One
Make at least some of these skills (fishing, hunting, mining, etc.) generate adventure XP. One of the current issues on the server is that, where adventure XP was once easy enough to amass pre-epic that the pool would last to 30, it's sparse enough now to require a great deal of grinding almost all the way to 30, maybe unless you don't really RP at all before then.
If some secondary skills could consistently generate a decent amount of adventure XP, it would allow people who don't want to grind through the same dungeons time and time again to instead focus more on their RP, without running into the dreaded issue of depleting their adventure XP pool because they would rather go hunting and fishing with friends and kill black orcs for the 495th time.
Two
For climbing, swimming, etc., add a more universal use of the ability. Instead of having a handful of places to climb or swim, allow it more freely. There are tons of cliffs around the server that could be climbed, and plenty of rivers that could be swum across. This could incentivize people to invest in some of the more adventure-focused skills, as it would allow them more freedom of movement across the map.
Three
Consider making some of the secondary skills into learnable skills, like darts. This wouldn't work for all of them, or it would kind of take the point out of the whole secondary skill system, but I think it would be fun to be able to progress in certain skills by doing them more. Maybe the number of points in the skill works as a multiplier for XP gain (or adventure XP gain, as above) doing the activity. Maybe they gain +.1x more adventure XP (or XP gain into the skill) per point, so Climbing of 0 would be the base rate of XP/adventure XP gain, 1 would be 1.1, 5 would be 1.5, etc.
But also some skill suggestions:
Ride
Move Ride from primary to secondary. Arelith has a huge issue right now where, since skill points are few for most of the classes with ride, and most of the classes with lots of skill points don't get ride, you really only get some characters investing in the minimum ride, and a very tiny handful going above. Ride is even more disincentivized because, other than slightly faster transportation across the map, there's really no reason to ride anything. You're worse in combat (unless you max out ride), they don't take you anywhere you can't get otherwise, there's no special horseback writs, dungeons, areas, or activities, really no reason beyond transport to invest.
Because there's so few people with ride, there's no real reason for developers to spend any time developing it. Because no one develops it, nothing about it is ever made better. We're just kind of stuck in this vicious circle of ride being pointless.
If it could be made into a secondary skill, most people could invest in it, which would make it more interesting and more worthwhile to make horse-specific content (or add individual summonable horses for sale, so you don't have to ride a community horse everywhere).
Weapon/Armor Maintenance
Especially if repair kits could be modified to have multiple charges, higher weapon/armor maintenance could decrease the number of charges required to repair something, even outside of the associated crafting skill (A character with weapon/armor maintenance could still benefit in repairing their padded armor, even if they didn't have any ranks in Tailoring). It could also decrease the CP required to repair something at a work station if they did have the associated skill.
Drinking
This one might be better as a learned skill like darts. Rather than basing drinking amounts entirely on Con, base it on the character's drinking score. A person who's tough as nails but rarely drinks could easily be drunk under the table by one of Arelith's hundreds of lush mages who down a fifth of vodka before cracking open their spellbook twice a day.
One
Make at least some of these skills (fishing, hunting, mining, etc.) generate adventure XP. One of the current issues on the server is that, where adventure XP was once easy enough to amass pre-epic that the pool would last to 30, it's sparse enough now to require a great deal of grinding almost all the way to 30, maybe unless you don't really RP at all before then.
If some secondary skills could consistently generate a decent amount of adventure XP, it would allow people who don't want to grind through the same dungeons time and time again to instead focus more on their RP, without running into the dreaded issue of depleting their adventure XP pool because they would rather go hunting and fishing with friends and kill black orcs for the 495th time.
Two
For climbing, swimming, etc., add a more universal use of the ability. Instead of having a handful of places to climb or swim, allow it more freely. There are tons of cliffs around the server that could be climbed, and plenty of rivers that could be swum across. This could incentivize people to invest in some of the more adventure-focused skills, as it would allow them more freedom of movement across the map.
Three
Consider making some of the secondary skills into learnable skills, like darts. This wouldn't work for all of them, or it would kind of take the point out of the whole secondary skill system, but I think it would be fun to be able to progress in certain skills by doing them more. Maybe the number of points in the skill works as a multiplier for XP gain (or adventure XP gain, as above) doing the activity. Maybe they gain +.1x more adventure XP (or XP gain into the skill) per point, so Climbing of 0 would be the base rate of XP/adventure XP gain, 1 would be 1.1, 5 would be 1.5, etc.
But also some skill suggestions:
Ride
Move Ride from primary to secondary. Arelith has a huge issue right now where, since skill points are few for most of the classes with ride, and most of the classes with lots of skill points don't get ride, you really only get some characters investing in the minimum ride, and a very tiny handful going above. Ride is even more disincentivized because, other than slightly faster transportation across the map, there's really no reason to ride anything. You're worse in combat (unless you max out ride), they don't take you anywhere you can't get otherwise, there's no special horseback writs, dungeons, areas, or activities, really no reason beyond transport to invest.
Because there's so few people with ride, there's no real reason for developers to spend any time developing it. Because no one develops it, nothing about it is ever made better. We're just kind of stuck in this vicious circle of ride being pointless.
If it could be made into a secondary skill, most people could invest in it, which would make it more interesting and more worthwhile to make horse-specific content (or add individual summonable horses for sale, so you don't have to ride a community horse everywhere).
Weapon/Armor Maintenance
Especially if repair kits could be modified to have multiple charges, higher weapon/armor maintenance could decrease the number of charges required to repair something, even outside of the associated crafting skill (A character with weapon/armor maintenance could still benefit in repairing their padded armor, even if they didn't have any ranks in Tailoring). It could also decrease the CP required to repair something at a work station if they did have the associated skill.
Drinking
This one might be better as a learned skill like darts. Rather than basing drinking amounts entirely on Con, base it on the character's drinking score. A person who's tough as nails but rarely drinks could easily be drunk under the table by one of Arelith's hundreds of lush mages who down a fifth of vodka before cracking open their spellbook twice a day.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Irongron wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:25 pmI really like this, and agree about the stats. I hadn't considered this was something we could have world side rank gaining for, though I know some of our developers had considered 'learning by doing' as a real option here.Huschpfusch wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:11 pm -- Moving what I wrote in other thread, due to unawareness of this thread's existance --
Secondary/rp skills should probably not be tied ot any stat - otherwise that would mean again one had to put stat points into something and then gear would give boost to stat thus influencing the secondary rp skill also.
Rather just give it same skill point amount to distribute for any character at lvl1 and on lvl ups. Much like crafting point system.
BUT also there could be points in game that give a permanent boost to a secondary skill. Those quests would have to be written so so on first time complete it adds a cumulative +1 permanent skill while on repeat it gives just basic money and xp like all other writs. Also thematically they would have to be a story tuned to the skill it is going to reward.
AND the there could be DM panel approved skill point reward for playercharacters that make events, or create masisve content via books or fixtures. The latter options being performable also by players who play in timezones with hardly any players and DMs around.
a) Secondary skill ideas with yet stupid names:
a1) (Artsyfartsy) - basically the RP equivalent of perform, but not tied to disguise mechanics and class. The music aspect of arts type rp-skill unlocks musical instruments one by one. On click like with scroll - learn how to play. And for completing the learning one might even have to buy lessons (similar to how feats are aquired on persistent world server) from a NPC AND/or maybe PC bards can give lessons.
a2) (Animal handling) - the non-combat equivalent of animal empathy. No animal language. It can make hostile wild animals turn non-hostile and go away peacefully. It can make non-combat quest animals joinable - e.g. farmland quest of chicken courier -> bringing Cordor farmland chickens to Bendir farm; bringing thunderbird at weatherstone to dryad grove, getting the seagulls at the lighthouse to not fly poopattacks at the nearby ship all the time - (rp-skill pcs figure out by behavior and all the empty shells lying around the seagulls are only flying to ship to pick up the shelltype creatures sticking to the ship; animal language talker PCs get a direct seagull conversation).
Animal Handling sounds likea must have, and the 'artsyfartsy' skill (I will NEVER call a skill that) reminded me, once again, of something in the Rolemaster RPG (Where we drew our Weapon Groups from).
Like a few RPGs it allows people to make their own skill, under a certain heading. So for instance, something like 'Woodcrafting' - Minature Soldiers' could be an option if you REALLY wanted your character to dedice their skill ranks to something so obsure. Obviously that wouldn't work on Arelith, but learning a specific instrument you wished to play, where you would get the floating musical notes, and could use a visible handheld instrument, its absolutely possible
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... animations
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... instrument
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... otu-padded
Id normally object hard against a learn by doing system, as it just makes more things to grind out within a single character. But if its just side rp grinds like learning a language vs say crsfting a better weapon, then im fine with it.
Mithreas' beta server is crafting grinding and there are players that enjoy it, but i found it too runescape, especially when it's the fastest way to make money so i feel like every character i make needs to grind out smithing vs it being a rp concept choice.
Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Subutai: Ride is movement speed for a skill investment, very handy for many things in PvM; in PvP you want to be chugging hastes. Ride is also mandatory for non-stealth ranged builds, because Mounted archery gives +2 AB.
Aaanyway, about the skills, I am a very lazy person to perform activities IG and have scarcely even touched the craftung system. My proposal is an occult skill that allows people to leave their last words upon dying, so you could e.g. commune with the dead to know their last wish. You might have to make your message out of a limited array of allowed words (e.g. 100) and the sentence left behind could be limited from 5 to 15 words. Progression could extend word count. Characters with this skill could leave their own message to other skill users, but it could also unlock lore fluff in quests / dungeons.
Aaanyway, about the skills, I am a very lazy person to perform activities IG and have scarcely even touched the craftung system. My proposal is an occult skill that allows people to leave their last words upon dying, so you could e.g. commune with the dead to know their last wish. You might have to make your message out of a limited array of allowed words (e.g. 100) and the sentence left behind could be limited from 5 to 15 words. Progression could extend word count. Characters with this skill could leave their own message to other skill users, but it could also unlock lore fluff in quests / dungeons.
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect
Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Some important design considerations with implementing these:
1. Does the skill grant combat power?
If so, it will be mandatory for most builds. None of what I see here is that, so it's good.
2. Does the skill split the party?
A skill that not everyone has that allows traversal might as well not exist, unless the traversal is built in such a way that you have a way to let your party over from the other side. If you implement swimming, for instance, make sure after you cross, if you have a rope it gets much easier for everyone else to cross.
3. Is the skill a worthwhile long-term investment?
Reducing the character level requirement for gear is interesting, but by its very nature it will eventually become useless. It shouldn't be implemented because taking it is a long-term waste.
4. Is the skill desirable? Does it add a positive impact to the community?
Economy-gaining skills sound like nice perks but they ultimately end up hurting players that engage in the related systems by reducing scarcity. Rather than give more of the pre-existing items, I'd instead add a new suite of items only obtainable through the system which are necessary components in high-level or niche crafts. Otherwise existing items get de-valued.
Edit:
I suggest the creation of some skills that by their use exploit the environment and throw it out of balance, to give our druids and rangers something to do.
1. Does the skill grant combat power?
If so, it will be mandatory for most builds. None of what I see here is that, so it's good.
2. Does the skill split the party?
A skill that not everyone has that allows traversal might as well not exist, unless the traversal is built in such a way that you have a way to let your party over from the other side. If you implement swimming, for instance, make sure after you cross, if you have a rope it gets much easier for everyone else to cross.
3. Is the skill a worthwhile long-term investment?
Reducing the character level requirement for gear is interesting, but by its very nature it will eventually become useless. It shouldn't be implemented because taking it is a long-term waste.
4. Is the skill desirable? Does it add a positive impact to the community?
Economy-gaining skills sound like nice perks but they ultimately end up hurting players that engage in the related systems by reducing scarcity. Rather than give more of the pre-existing items, I'd instead add a new suite of items only obtainable through the system which are necessary components in high-level or niche crafts. Otherwise existing items get de-valued.
Edit:
I suggest the creation of some skills that by their use exploit the environment and throw it out of balance, to give our druids and rangers something to do.
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Egos Ironhide - Shelved
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Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
I also played on SW:LOR for a few months, from mid December to something like February or March of this year, and I feel the same way. I love Mithreas, but I hate the leveling system on that server, it's one of the main reasons I left. It's Runescape.malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:15 pmIrongron wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:25 pmI really like this, and agree about the stats. I hadn't considered this was something we could have world side rank gaining for, though I know some of our developers had considered 'learning by doing' as a real option here.Huschpfusch wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:11 pm -- Moving what I wrote in other thread, due to unawareness of this thread's existance --
Secondary/rp skills should probably not be tied ot any stat - otherwise that would mean again one had to put stat points into something and then gear would give boost to stat thus influencing the secondary rp skill also.
Rather just give it same skill point amount to distribute for any character at lvl1 and on lvl ups. Much like crafting point system.
BUT also there could be points in game that give a permanent boost to a secondary skill. Those quests would have to be written so so on first time complete it adds a cumulative +1 permanent skill while on repeat it gives just basic money and xp like all other writs. Also thematically they would have to be a story tuned to the skill it is going to reward.
AND the there could be DM panel approved skill point reward for playercharacters that make events, or create masisve content via books or fixtures. The latter options being performable also by players who play in timezones with hardly any players and DMs around.
a) Secondary skill ideas with yet stupid names:
a1) (Artsyfartsy) - basically the RP equivalent of perform, but not tied to disguise mechanics and class. The music aspect of arts type rp-skill unlocks musical instruments one by one. On click like with scroll - learn how to play. And for completing the learning one might even have to buy lessons (similar to how feats are aquired on persistent world server) from a NPC AND/or maybe PC bards can give lessons.
a2) (Animal handling) - the non-combat equivalent of animal empathy. No animal language. It can make hostile wild animals turn non-hostile and go away peacefully. It can make non-combat quest animals joinable - e.g. farmland quest of chicken courier -> bringing Cordor farmland chickens to Bendir farm; bringing thunderbird at weatherstone to dryad grove, getting the seagulls at the lighthouse to not fly poopattacks at the nearby ship all the time - (rp-skill pcs figure out by behavior and all the empty shells lying around the seagulls are only flying to ship to pick up the shelltype creatures sticking to the ship; animal language talker PCs get a direct seagull conversation).
Animal Handling sounds likea must have, and the 'artsyfartsy' skill (I will NEVER call a skill that) reminded me, once again, of something in the Rolemaster RPG (Where we drew our Weapon Groups from).
Like a few RPGs it allows people to make their own skill, under a certain heading. So for instance, something like 'Woodcrafting' - Minature Soldiers' could be an option if you REALLY wanted your character to dedice their skill ranks to something so obsure. Obviously that wouldn't work on Arelith, but learning a specific instrument you wished to play, where you would get the floating musical notes, and could use a visible handheld instrument, its absolutely possible
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... animations
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... instrument
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... otu-padded
Id normally object hard against a learn by doing system, as it just makes more things to grind out within a single character. But if its just side rp grinds like learning a language vs say crsfting a better weapon, then im fine with it.
Mithreas' beta server is crafting grinding and there are players that enjoy it, but i found it too runescape, especially when it's the fastest way to make money so i feel like every character i make needs to grind out smithing vs it being a rp concept choice.
Please anything but that.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Suggestions:
Sensing (Wizard/Sorcerer Favored, all others cross-classed): Investment in this skill allows for the user to know the nature of any individual that passes a barrier they have set. Barriers are set like traps, and can be placed near zone transitions. Every 10 ranks in the skill allows for another barrier to be placed. Barriers are removed after a set number of triggers, starting at 1, that increases by 1 every ten ranks in the skill. When an individual interacts with the barrier, it tells the player that someone is coming, and a detail about their nature.
Wrestle (Fighter/Monk Favored, all others cross-classed): This skill allows for one player to challenge another to a strength at arms contest. The two contest via feats of strength or dexterity, making rolls against each total score with the wrestle modifier/10 added. The loser becomes prone for 1 round. Usable by targeting a player of interest, and typing -wrestle. The opposing player sees a dialog box, and if they decline, their player automatically emotes *player name declines the challenge*.
Forage (Ranger/Druid): Use of this skill allows for the user to forage within any forest area, acquiring food, drink, and various interesting items from nature. Increasing ranks increase the chances of finding more and better items, including exotic plants and crafting supplies. Nothing imbalancing, but some items may be unusual items that shake the ground or emit flashy lights without causing actual harm.
Meditation (Casting Classes): Use of this skill moves the character to a sitting position atop a square of carpet. Every ten points in this skill allows for a reduction in rest state by .1 while meditating. Meditating players are unable to move, and must get up slowly from their position or else they will receive +.5 rest meter for disturbing their meditation.
Sensing (Wizard/Sorcerer Favored, all others cross-classed): Investment in this skill allows for the user to know the nature of any individual that passes a barrier they have set. Barriers are set like traps, and can be placed near zone transitions. Every 10 ranks in the skill allows for another barrier to be placed. Barriers are removed after a set number of triggers, starting at 1, that increases by 1 every ten ranks in the skill. When an individual interacts with the barrier, it tells the player that someone is coming, and a detail about their nature.
Wrestle (Fighter/Monk Favored, all others cross-classed): This skill allows for one player to challenge another to a strength at arms contest. The two contest via feats of strength or dexterity, making rolls against each total score with the wrestle modifier/10 added. The loser becomes prone for 1 round. Usable by targeting a player of interest, and typing -wrestle. The opposing player sees a dialog box, and if they decline, their player automatically emotes *player name declines the challenge*.
Forage (Ranger/Druid): Use of this skill allows for the user to forage within any forest area, acquiring food, drink, and various interesting items from nature. Increasing ranks increase the chances of finding more and better items, including exotic plants and crafting supplies. Nothing imbalancing, but some items may be unusual items that shake the ground or emit flashy lights without causing actual harm.
Meditation (Casting Classes): Use of this skill moves the character to a sitting position atop a square of carpet. Every ten points in this skill allows for a reduction in rest state by .1 while meditating. Meditating players are unable to move, and must get up slowly from their position or else they will receive +.5 rest meter for disturbing their meditation.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Tbh, I'm super skeptical of this entire idea. And the reason being its such an abstraction that seems at odds with D&D, Pathfinder, etc.
I think it's going about it all the wrong way. If "core skills" are the problem, you need to gut those, not create brand new things.
I don't know what the limit is for haks, but here is conceptually what I think -
1. Remove Discipline. Replace it with something similar to Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense of Pathfinder. A knockdown, for example, would be CMB vs. CMD. CMB would be your Base Attack Bonus + Str or Dex, vs. CMD, which is 10 + BAB + dex + str.
Balance gods shoot me.
2. Merge Hide and Move Silently into Stealth.
3. Merge Listen and Spot into Perception.
4. Remove Bluff. Add Disguise. Have it no longer tied to Perform.
5. Remove Lore and Spellcraft. Add Arcana and Knowledge. Arcana covers all of the 'spell-related' stuff of Lore/Spellcraft. Knowledge covers all the language stuff of Lore.
6. Remove Tumble. Somehow tie its AC bonus to BAB.
7. Persuade is now a combination of Bluff, Intimidation, and Persuade. Remove Intimidate.
8. Think about adding things like Athletics (tying climb, swim, hazards together, giving synergy bonuses to resist poison or whatever), Acrobatics (the new weird AoE preventer, maybe add parkour stuff, balancing encounters, fall damage), Insight (that counters Persuade), Survival (by removing Animal Empathy), etc.
9. Put all of the other specific action-reward skill ideas of this thread into feats. Give these feats requirements. Give out "character roleplay feats" every 5 levels.
Creating primary + secondary skills sounds needlessly complex. We already are able to create brand new feats. You know whats more fun than putting 1 rank in "hunting"? Getting a feat called "Huntsman" that just gives the bonus. There, you have it.
I think it's going about it all the wrong way. If "core skills" are the problem, you need to gut those, not create brand new things.
I don't know what the limit is for haks, but here is conceptually what I think -
1. Remove Discipline. Replace it with something similar to Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense of Pathfinder. A knockdown, for example, would be CMB vs. CMD. CMB would be your Base Attack Bonus + Str or Dex, vs. CMD, which is 10 + BAB + dex + str.
Balance gods shoot me.
2. Merge Hide and Move Silently into Stealth.
3. Merge Listen and Spot into Perception.
4. Remove Bluff. Add Disguise. Have it no longer tied to Perform.
5. Remove Lore and Spellcraft. Add Arcana and Knowledge. Arcana covers all of the 'spell-related' stuff of Lore/Spellcraft. Knowledge covers all the language stuff of Lore.
6. Remove Tumble. Somehow tie its AC bonus to BAB.
7. Persuade is now a combination of Bluff, Intimidation, and Persuade. Remove Intimidate.
8. Think about adding things like Athletics (tying climb, swim, hazards together, giving synergy bonuses to resist poison or whatever), Acrobatics (the new weird AoE preventer, maybe add parkour stuff, balancing encounters, fall damage), Insight (that counters Persuade), Survival (by removing Animal Empathy), etc.
9. Put all of the other specific action-reward skill ideas of this thread into feats. Give these feats requirements. Give out "character roleplay feats" every 5 levels.
Creating primary + secondary skills sounds needlessly complex. We already are able to create brand new feats. You know whats more fun than putting 1 rank in "hunting"? Getting a feat called "Huntsman" that just gives the bonus. There, you have it.
Last edited by Seven Sons of Sin on Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Any new non combat feat or skill should work separatedly from combat skills or feats. A parallel progression and you can't put "social" skills into combat or vice versa, or use your "social" bonus feat to get a combat feat.

Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Rename "FORAGING" to "Wilderness Lore" (an old 3rd edition actual skill) - it makes sense since it is already linked to "Lore" for synergy. also include DRUIDS and BARBARIANS Bonus along with RangersIrongron wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:25 am
OUTDOOR SURVIVAL
Hunting (Ranger Bonus) - Synergy - Set Trap, Tracking - Allows for more meat and skin when hunting animals or fishing. Will reveal extra animals on map, animals receive spot/listen penalty against character
Foraging (Ranger Bonus) - Synergy - Lore - Allows for greater yields when picking plants, spawns extra plants when exploring, food/rest reduction reduced in natural areas)
Tracking (Ranger/Assassin Bonus) Synergy - Lore- Opens the -track command, can determine the direction of person leaving the tracks if they're within a certain number of areas (thanks to Artinedes for already making the script to enable this function)
this already has "food/rest reduction" which is awesome... but being able to REST in the wilds more comfortably (because thay are your home) -lets you rest up to 65%/80%/95% rest based on tier of skill when in wild. -because what Ranger/druid worth their salt uses INNS??????
-as an added bonus.. if you are PARTIED with a ranger... your party-mates are granted 1/2 Bonus % to their RESTING max (since the ranger has made the camp more comfortable for them.)
WATER SOURCES - in wild areas should reduce % chance of contracting disease to 0% if this skill is at or near max.
Last edited by The Kriv on Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
woof double post
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Dungeoneering. (Could also be called Luck or Treasure Hunting)
This secondary skill would increase the chances you have to uncover dungeon secrets, hidden passages, lost and forgotten treasures, etc. Could be tied with the Search skill, and perhaps have some usage bonus with the Shovel tool.
This secondary skill would increase the chances you have to uncover dungeon secrets, hidden passages, lost and forgotten treasures, etc. Could be tied with the Search skill, and perhaps have some usage bonus with the Shovel tool.
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Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Can't say I agree. Pathfinder is great... For everything but Rogues/skill-monkey party roles, it's terrible for those (only idiots play Rogues in Pathfinder, so much so that the devs even acknowledged that and turned it into the Ninja class, lol). You do these suggestions and you end up with "do-everything" fighters. The skill point allotment in 3.0 D&D is just right to make skill points a valuable resource, condensing 20 skills into 10 just means A) Now they're not. B) Everyone can do everything (skillwise) and C) classes designed to be utility role through skills become utterly irrelevant.
Those guys with six and eight class points per level don't get big crits or full spellbooks because they can afford to be the spotter, sneaker, or weirdo who can read dead languages. You're just taking that away from them and giving it to everyone with no compensation.
It's bad enough they're already trash tier in almost every regard.
Re: Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)
Now that I'm home, let me take a swing at this more thoroughly.
For the purposes of this post, I'm going to try to stick to the general categories described here. I'm going to be taking in some other people's suggestions because they were good.
OUTDOOR SURVIVAL
Design Goals: Interact more deeply with the environment.
Design Rules: Cannot grant more pre-existing resources, to prevent further inflation and devaluation of goods, which interferes with merchant/economic playstyles and reduces player co-dependence.
Survival
Design Goal: Status Resistance
Reduces status drain in outdoor environments. Reduces negative effects of weather. Reduces chances of contracting disease from water sources, but only when thirst is below 25% (to encourage keeping water with you, dummy). Increases non-inn rest cap in outdoor environments.
Tracking
Design Goal: Targeted Killing
Enables two abilities, Track Player and Hunt Foe.
Track Player: Allows you to target a player to hunt down. DC is the target's level, with a + modifier based on mitigating factors like current weather and if the target is disguised. When interacting with tracks, you're told whether or not the targeted player has passed through, and if so, in what direction they headed in. After interacting with three tracks that don't show the target in a row, the trail is lost.
Hunt Foe: Allows you to select a type of enemy you want to hunt, like Outsiders or Goblins, and increases the chance enemies of that type spawn if there are spawn nodes that can spawn different types of enemies. Increase % is equal to skill ranks. Useful for targeting rare foes or cleaning up specific enemies needed for writs.
Gathering
Design Goal: Rarely find skill-unique reagents used for high-end recipes.
Gives a chance to find rare components when interacting with plants, mining gems/ore/lumber, or looting leather-granting beasts.
Common Find Examples(Fun/RP consumables): Pink Flowers, Thunderstones
Rare Find Examples: Components for Rune Components (1/3 of Djinn Uther, etc), Useful one-shot consumables
Extreme Rare Find Examples(0.1% at max ranks): New components for new high-level recipes, mithril dust, star sapphires, etc
URBAN LIFE
Design Goal: Make city life more interesting, contribute to civilization roleplay
Design Rules: Make it indicative of the circles you run in
Streetwise
Design Goal: Underworld Connections
Enables dealing with increasingly criminal elements at certain breakpoints. Examples:
5 - Can pay for an expensive safe-house for two in-game hours (12 minutes) to try to get away from attention.
10 - Access to Merchant that will pay top dollar for stolen Writ Packages
15 - Access to Black Market that sells rare, but extremely expensive items (cheaper to buy from players if they find it)
20 - Access to Smuggler
25 - Can pay a certain NPC for a one-way trip to the Shadowplane... Building of Note
30 - Can pay a certain NPC to get smuggled into a settlement from outside, even while exiled/outcast
Socialite
Design Goal: Above the Board
Enables interacting with certain city services in a better way, depending on breakpoints. Examples:
5 - Gain an additional 10 XP per hour while bartending
10 - Can pay the Property Register a large sum to give you alerts about the status of a specific property/shop on log-in for an in-game month
15 - Increases the limit of bank loans to 10,000
20 - Can bribe guards for large sums of money to get through Noble-only checks
25 - Gain universal appraise bonus
30 - Can purchase certain consumable once/real-life month that allows teleporting to the city you bought it from
PHYSICAL PROWESS
Design Goal: Enable Feats of Might that Enable Role-Play
Design Rule: Better implement previously-used systems
Athletics
Design Goal: Enable Traversal
Combine Climbing and Swimming into this, the universal Traversal Skill. Make every route one-way, but completing it with a rope in your inventory eliminates the check for others for one minute.
Restraining
Design Goal: Make Capture Make Sense, for Guards and Slavers
Used for lassoing players. DC for success is player level +20, or +10 if they're at Near Death or incapacitated. Player is 'permanently' restrained but can make some appropriate check to escape every five minutes, likely reflex with a DC of the check used to restrain - 10. Upon escaping, they become immune to lassos for one in-game hour, enough time to escape. (Any longer and it might be abused to become unlassoable in dangerous situations)
Also used for lassoing creatures. Higher ranks enable lassoing at higher health percentages and lassoing large creatures (Skal wizard tower, you can finally get minotaurs!)
ACADEMIC
Design Goal: Enable Information Gathering and Obscuring
Design Rule: Should be sensible in how it works
Cryptography
Allows the creation of coded messages, as part of the Writing menu.
When creating a message, you specify a real message, and then write a cover message.
Seeing the real message: Either create a Cipher item that can be copied and distributed, or specify a faction that can see the real message.
Skill also allows recognition of coded messages (DC-10) or seeing the real message (DC of skillcheck made when creating message)
Skill roll when creating message is hidden from creator.
Linguistics
Every 5 ranks increases language cap and language learn speed, like taking 2 points of intelligence. Can increase learn rate over current 20 Int learn rate. Refactor Linguist gift to give bonus ranks of this.
Hidden Messages
Enables putting down an invisible placeable containing a message, that can be found by using -investigate in the place it was placed. Skill also enables spotting hidden messages. Placeable isn't saved and disappears on reset.
*This one could be used for scavenger hunts and buried treasure, in addition to dead drops.
THEOLOGICAL
Design Goal: Enable religious role-play.
Design Rule: Should involve other players, shouldn't be a way to cheat up high piety when soloing
Altarminding
Design Goal: Expand altar interaction to be more long-term interactive
Every 10 ranks increases the piety bonuses from praying at altars by 1%, regardless of altar
Allows non-clerics to sanctify altars (One chance per altar, high-ish DC)
Allows determining the deity and sanctifier of non-cleric altars
Allows non-clerics to desecrate non-cleric sanctified altars
Allows determining a non-cleric that descrated an altar
*To support this, we make two 'tiers' of altars: Clerics and Un/holy gifters create Hallowed altars that don't interact with this system, while everyone using this skill creates Sanctified altars that can be interacted with
Preaching
Design Goal: Enable sermon/evangelizing RP
Allows you to enter Preaching mode, which goes away upon entering combat, leaving the area, or going one in-game hour without affecting a player
As long as you've sent at least five messages in the tick, yourself and any other players near you don't lose Piety for that tick.
Every 5 ranks grants listeners a 1% piety bonus when the tick happens.
Gain a small amount of exp for each character affected, which increases with Preaching ranks.
Cannot affect other characters in Preaching Mode, and will end when attempting to do so- enabling religious rivalry and/or policing people abusing the system.
Once it ends, requires 24 in-game hours to use again.
MAGICAL
Design Goal: Enable high magic role-play
Design Rule: Shouldn't grant combat power, just utility
Planar Knowledge
Design Goal: Make planeswalking more accessible
Enables discovering Planar Convergences. Interacting with it creates a temporary zone that allows Potions of Attunement to send players to the planar nexus. DC is based on convenience; convergences hidden at the end of high-level dungeons are low. Convergences hidden outdoors and accessible are very high.
Ritual Summoning
Three characters with this skill can combine their efforts to summon a more powerful creature than normal for the lead, after a one-minute ritual (during which they're free to role-play). Doing so makes the characters unable to perform the ritual again for 24 in-game hours.
Summoned creature should be based on current summon seed and total ranks of participants. A skill of (max possible ranks X 3) should summon a particularly powerful creature that competes with or beats Dragon Knight.
SOCIAL
Design Goal: Reward Social RP
Design Rule: Don't overshadow the existing social skills, which have been well-integrated (though could still use more conversation checks for unique benefits)
Live Performance
Goal: Whether you're a bard or not a bard, level up by entertaining.
Works the same as Preaching, including the restrictions and the ability to interrupt another, but instead of manipulating piety, grants more experience to the performer and smaller Adventure Exp to listeners.
Reputation
Allows you to add one Lore check to your description for every five ranks. Can customize them with chat commands. For people that want to be known at a glance by strangers, just in case they're giving out plot hooks. NO OTHER BENEFIT. JUST COOL COLOR TEXT IN YOUR DESCRIPTION. BECAUSE SOME OF YOU WANT THAT, AND YOU KNOW YOU WANT THAT, AND I KNOW I WANT THAT, JUST LET US DO IT
Captaining
Design Goal: Make being a pirate and pirate hunter more fun
Enables several features from the ship navigator:
-Target particular types of content when searching, like ships, empty islands, habitated islands, player ships
-Take evasive action to be harder to detect (using your skill rank DC), which reduces your own discovery of nautical features
-Hire better guards, with new (and more costly) guards being unlocked by ranks
-Pretend to be another ship type when players discover you, contested by their Captaining
-Target difficulty bands (so you're less likely to get in over your head or more likely to find that ONE CORDORIAN SHIP YOU NEED TO FINISH YOUR PIRATE WRIT ARRRRRRRRR(GH))
This has been a several hour exercise in game design and writing. Tell me why my efforts were wasted.
For the purposes of this post, I'm going to try to stick to the general categories described here. I'm going to be taking in some other people's suggestions because they were good.
OUTDOOR SURVIVAL
Design Goals: Interact more deeply with the environment.
Design Rules: Cannot grant more pre-existing resources, to prevent further inflation and devaluation of goods, which interferes with merchant/economic playstyles and reduces player co-dependence.
Survival
Design Goal: Status Resistance
Reduces status drain in outdoor environments. Reduces negative effects of weather. Reduces chances of contracting disease from water sources, but only when thirst is below 25% (to encourage keeping water with you, dummy). Increases non-inn rest cap in outdoor environments.
Tracking
Design Goal: Targeted Killing
Enables two abilities, Track Player and Hunt Foe.
Track Player: Allows you to target a player to hunt down. DC is the target's level, with a + modifier based on mitigating factors like current weather and if the target is disguised. When interacting with tracks, you're told whether or not the targeted player has passed through, and if so, in what direction they headed in. After interacting with three tracks that don't show the target in a row, the trail is lost.
Hunt Foe: Allows you to select a type of enemy you want to hunt, like Outsiders or Goblins, and increases the chance enemies of that type spawn if there are spawn nodes that can spawn different types of enemies. Increase % is equal to skill ranks. Useful for targeting rare foes or cleaning up specific enemies needed for writs.
Gathering
Design Goal: Rarely find skill-unique reagents used for high-end recipes.
Gives a chance to find rare components when interacting with plants, mining gems/ore/lumber, or looting leather-granting beasts.
Common Find Examples(Fun/RP consumables): Pink Flowers, Thunderstones
Rare Find Examples: Components for Rune Components (1/3 of Djinn Uther, etc), Useful one-shot consumables
Extreme Rare Find Examples(0.1% at max ranks): New components for new high-level recipes, mithril dust, star sapphires, etc
URBAN LIFE
Design Goal: Make city life more interesting, contribute to civilization roleplay
Design Rules: Make it indicative of the circles you run in
Streetwise
Design Goal: Underworld Connections
Enables dealing with increasingly criminal elements at certain breakpoints. Examples:
5 - Can pay for an expensive safe-house for two in-game hours (12 minutes) to try to get away from attention.
10 - Access to Merchant that will pay top dollar for stolen Writ Packages
15 - Access to Black Market that sells rare, but extremely expensive items (cheaper to buy from players if they find it)
20 - Access to Smuggler
25 - Can pay a certain NPC for a one-way trip to the Shadowplane... Building of Note
30 - Can pay a certain NPC to get smuggled into a settlement from outside, even while exiled/outcast
Socialite
Design Goal: Above the Board
Enables interacting with certain city services in a better way, depending on breakpoints. Examples:
5 - Gain an additional 10 XP per hour while bartending
10 - Can pay the Property Register a large sum to give you alerts about the status of a specific property/shop on log-in for an in-game month
15 - Increases the limit of bank loans to 10,000
20 - Can bribe guards for large sums of money to get through Noble-only checks
25 - Gain universal appraise bonus
30 - Can purchase certain consumable once/real-life month that allows teleporting to the city you bought it from
PHYSICAL PROWESS
Design Goal: Enable Feats of Might that Enable Role-Play
Design Rule: Better implement previously-used systems
Athletics
Design Goal: Enable Traversal
Combine Climbing and Swimming into this, the universal Traversal Skill. Make every route one-way, but completing it with a rope in your inventory eliminates the check for others for one minute.
Restraining
Design Goal: Make Capture Make Sense, for Guards and Slavers
Used for lassoing players. DC for success is player level +20, or +10 if they're at Near Death or incapacitated. Player is 'permanently' restrained but can make some appropriate check to escape every five minutes, likely reflex with a DC of the check used to restrain - 10. Upon escaping, they become immune to lassos for one in-game hour, enough time to escape. (Any longer and it might be abused to become unlassoable in dangerous situations)
Also used for lassoing creatures. Higher ranks enable lassoing at higher health percentages and lassoing large creatures (Skal wizard tower, you can finally get minotaurs!)
ACADEMIC
Design Goal: Enable Information Gathering and Obscuring
Design Rule: Should be sensible in how it works
Cryptography
Allows the creation of coded messages, as part of the Writing menu.
When creating a message, you specify a real message, and then write a cover message.
Seeing the real message: Either create a Cipher item that can be copied and distributed, or specify a faction that can see the real message.
Skill also allows recognition of coded messages (DC-10) or seeing the real message (DC of skillcheck made when creating message)
Skill roll when creating message is hidden from creator.
Linguistics
Every 5 ranks increases language cap and language learn speed, like taking 2 points of intelligence. Can increase learn rate over current 20 Int learn rate. Refactor Linguist gift to give bonus ranks of this.
Hidden Messages
Enables putting down an invisible placeable containing a message, that can be found by using -investigate in the place it was placed. Skill also enables spotting hidden messages. Placeable isn't saved and disappears on reset.
*This one could be used for scavenger hunts and buried treasure, in addition to dead drops.
THEOLOGICAL
Design Goal: Enable religious role-play.
Design Rule: Should involve other players, shouldn't be a way to cheat up high piety when soloing
Altarminding
Design Goal: Expand altar interaction to be more long-term interactive
Every 10 ranks increases the piety bonuses from praying at altars by 1%, regardless of altar
Allows non-clerics to sanctify altars (One chance per altar, high-ish DC)
Allows determining the deity and sanctifier of non-cleric altars
Allows non-clerics to desecrate non-cleric sanctified altars
Allows determining a non-cleric that descrated an altar
*To support this, we make two 'tiers' of altars: Clerics and Un/holy gifters create Hallowed altars that don't interact with this system, while everyone using this skill creates Sanctified altars that can be interacted with
Preaching
Design Goal: Enable sermon/evangelizing RP
Allows you to enter Preaching mode, which goes away upon entering combat, leaving the area, or going one in-game hour without affecting a player
As long as you've sent at least five messages in the tick, yourself and any other players near you don't lose Piety for that tick.
Every 5 ranks grants listeners a 1% piety bonus when the tick happens.
Gain a small amount of exp for each character affected, which increases with Preaching ranks.
Cannot affect other characters in Preaching Mode, and will end when attempting to do so- enabling religious rivalry and/or policing people abusing the system.
Once it ends, requires 24 in-game hours to use again.
MAGICAL
Design Goal: Enable high magic role-play
Design Rule: Shouldn't grant combat power, just utility
Planar Knowledge
Design Goal: Make planeswalking more accessible
Enables discovering Planar Convergences. Interacting with it creates a temporary zone that allows Potions of Attunement to send players to the planar nexus. DC is based on convenience; convergences hidden at the end of high-level dungeons are low. Convergences hidden outdoors and accessible are very high.
Ritual Summoning
Three characters with this skill can combine their efforts to summon a more powerful creature than normal for the lead, after a one-minute ritual (during which they're free to role-play). Doing so makes the characters unable to perform the ritual again for 24 in-game hours.
Summoned creature should be based on current summon seed and total ranks of participants. A skill of (max possible ranks X 3) should summon a particularly powerful creature that competes with or beats Dragon Knight.
SOCIAL
Design Goal: Reward Social RP
Design Rule: Don't overshadow the existing social skills, which have been well-integrated (though could still use more conversation checks for unique benefits)
Live Performance
Goal: Whether you're a bard or not a bard, level up by entertaining.
Works the same as Preaching, including the restrictions and the ability to interrupt another, but instead of manipulating piety, grants more experience to the performer and smaller Adventure Exp to listeners.
Reputation
Allows you to add one Lore check to your description for every five ranks. Can customize them with chat commands. For people that want to be known at a glance by strangers, just in case they're giving out plot hooks. NO OTHER BENEFIT. JUST COOL COLOR TEXT IN YOUR DESCRIPTION. BECAUSE SOME OF YOU WANT THAT, AND YOU KNOW YOU WANT THAT, AND I KNOW I WANT THAT, JUST LET US DO IT
Captaining
Design Goal: Make being a pirate and pirate hunter more fun
Enables several features from the ship navigator:
-Target particular types of content when searching, like ships, empty islands, habitated islands, player ships
-Take evasive action to be harder to detect (using your skill rank DC), which reduces your own discovery of nautical features
-Hire better guards, with new (and more costly) guards being unlocked by ranks
-Pretend to be another ship type when players discover you, contested by their Captaining
-Target difficulty bands (so you're less likely to get in over your head or more likely to find that ONE CORDORIAN SHIP YOU NEED TO FINISH YOUR PIRATE WRIT ARRRRRRRRR(GH))
This has been a several hour exercise in game design and writing. Tell me why my efforts were wasted.
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.