New Item Concerns!

[Philly]

What I see a lot, and what frustrates me immensely (and I'm not even part of the development team in any capacity) is that the reactions seem very rushed and ... angsty, at times, I guess?

Taking a step back and reconsidering certain expectations may go a long way to establish a more constructive discussion, I think. I'm not saying no one should voice their concerns, opinions and insights, but speculations often make these threads hard to navigate.

I would argue all these changes happening feel very rushed, which might lead the player base to feeling angsty. We haven't even had a week to see what the huge gsanc debuff, the huge edk debuff will do to pvp balance, and already level 9 arcane spells are getting loaded into mundane weapons, namely, ones that are the biggest counter to spellcasters.

[Orian_666]

Saying things like "wait and see", or "it hasn't happened yet" is a bit redundant, it hasn't happened yet because it's only just been introduced. It takes a little time to stockpile these things.
But it's perfectly reasonable to make an educated guess and predict what's likely to happen down the line, especially when it's very likely to be that outcome.

[RedGiant]

Arelith does seem to be trending toward a kind of balance, I suppose.

When casters and mundanes both have the tools to one shot without counterplay, it doesn't really matter what you play. Every build is viable.

There is a kind of irony here, in that this looks a lot like Vanilla NWN on a lvl 30 server. I'm not complaining about this, since I have publicly said many times Vanilla NWN had its own kind of balance, its just that some people don't like it. PvP tended to be short, brutal, and favored quickdraws of well-heeled combos or need-to-have items.

*Edit: After seeing stacks. Concurring with Peppermint ratio now 3/1001.

[Nitro]

I've already seen a stack of 100 dc16 spell breach arrows, which is hilarious because the DC doesn't do anything to the breach effect.

Also RIP everything on the breach list with those in the rotation.

[NauVaseline]

This is a lesson in why you do not fix what was not broken.

[ReverentBlade]

Mords on ammo is a bad idea. These changes are trying to bring parity from a change that didn't need to happen in the first.

Revert back to before the lore change, and recall -all- the new items. You'll immediately have a more balanced game with a well-established meta. Smashing it all with a sledgehammer and trying to rebuild from the pieces is a little insane, imo. Incrementalism is used in the game industry for a reason.

[Scylon]

I'm happy with them keeping the lore for scroll change, and the GS nerf. Dragon nerf, not so much unless they are going to nerf them across the board.

Rods and these weird items got to go.

A better solution would be an epic feat for a once per day thing like banish strike or a dispels strike that works similar to smite.

So this "smite magic" would be able to either at a percentage chance banish a summoned creature or Hit a mords like effect. Not both though. So you can either target the summon to banish it, or target the caster to weaken him.

In truth I'd like this crafted into a prestige class that focus on Anti magic, but if a fighter has nothing he might have a hard time.

[Subutai]

All of this seems bizarre to me, because a fairly straight forward, easily-balanced change would be just to add Mord's, WoF, and maybe TS items to the craft menu. This would give mundanes the ability to counter mages, without giving them access to the entire list of spells. Instead, we're getting these weird attempts at a solution(?) to the issue that are absolutely sure to cause more problems.

I'm not thoroughly opposed to the UMD changes, because the reasons for needing scrolls really came down to just three spells (plus maybe some summons, for PvE). The exact functionality could be very easily replaced by craftable items. Why are we seeing stacks of bolts/arrows, etc., that go charging headlong into unbalance combat, instead of something simple?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

All of this seems bizarre to me, because a fairly straight forward, easily-balanced change would be just to add Mord's, WoF, and maybe TS items to the craft menu. This would give mundanes the ability to counter mages, without giving them access to the entire list of spells. Instead, we're getting these weird attempts at a solution(?) to the issue that are absolutely sure to cause more problems.

I'm not thoroughly opposed to the UMD changes, because the reasons for needing scrolls really came down to just three spells (plus maybe some summons, for PvE). The exact functionality could be very easily replaced by craftable items. Why are we seeing stacks of bolts/arrows, etc., that go charging headlong into unbalance combat, instead of something simple?

*edit*

I like the craftable rods but would like to take it one step further for rods requiring crafting from the appropiate caster.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Arelith does seem to be trending toward a kind of balance, I suppose.

When casters and mundanes both have the tools to one shot without counterplay, it doesn't really matter what you play. Every build is viable.

I wouldn't call that ideal balance, however.

Urging players not to sensationalize is all well and good, but many of us have the experience to know exactly how this will play out. We're not exaggerating or being hyperbolic. Arelith is on a worrying track.

Given the recent essay from Irongron, it really is a shame to see more of the same right afterward.

Arelith does seem to be trending toward a kind of balance, I suppose.

When casters and mundanes both have the tools to one shot without counterplay, it doesn't really matter what you play. Every build is viable.

I wouldn't call that ideal balance, however.

Urging players not to sensationalize is all well and good, but many of us have the experience to know exactly how this will play out. We're not exaggerating or being hyperbolic. Arelith is on a worrying track.

Given the recent essay from Irongron, it really is a shame to see more of the same right afterward.

Everyone one shotting everyone with less emphasis/worry on counter play to a point where it doesnt matter what you play would increase a sense of "anything can happen" and stop having all choices calculated in vacuum for being "conflict viable". I understand it would make competitive pvp way less existent and a lot less fun for a lot of players, but it would open up more options IF done right.

I'd be happy to see it done right part and I feel half the reason it will take a long time for it to get their is the more mechanic savvy people really enjoy a more counter play pvp scene so they won't be helping make said balance happen because its still a "bad balance" to have no counter play. Call me boring, but I guess I like things not being in a closed vacuum even if lack of counter play. In real life combat often ends in seconds (dont confuse that for a poor argument lol). However, as much as my philosophy may agree with what devs are trying to do, I can see its not accomplished yet, and at end of it all I would like to see some kind of balance.

I want to see arelith stay upright, not fall over regardless of what path it takes. Be it the umd/everything before meta or this new path and I feel people like you Peppermint can help make that happen, but it would mean helping it become a kind of balance that might be less ideal/interesting to you. And I am sorry if that is the case and understand if you don't and, or get frustrated the whole way. And maybe a balance can be achieved between two different ideals.

[Ork]

All of this seems bizarre to me, because a fairly straight forward, easily-balanced change would be just to add Mord's, WoF, and maybe TS items to the craft menu.

While that is ideal, prior to this change the level 3 dip cost these classes something. Since you can only take 3 different classes and a mandatory 3 class succession per class, players had to make a hard choice that usually involved an improved class feature or UMD/Tumble. For instance, barbarians use to dip rogue in order to grab UMD/Tumble & missed out of prestige classes like Weapon Master.

Now? If a barbarian player is fortunate enough, he can collect rods of disjunction, WoF & more all without investing any skills. Better yet, he can drop rogue completely from his build and pick up weapon master instead. Now you have a barbarian that can do all the things he use to with rogue, and improve his crit range & ab. Some of you ought to be scared.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

All of this seems bizarre to me, because a fairly straight forward, easily-balanced change would be just to add Mord's, WoF, and maybe TS items to the craft menu.

While that is ideal, prior to this change the level 3 dip cost these classes something. Since you can only take 3 different classes and a mandatory 3 class succession per class, players had to make a hard choice that usually involved an improved class feature or UMD/Tumble. For instance, barbarians use to dip rogue in order to grab UMD/Tumble & missed out of prestige classes like Weapon Master.

Now? If a barbarian player is fortunate enough, he can collect rods of disjunction, WoF & more all without investing any skills. Better yet, he can drop rogue completely from his build and pick up weapon master instead. Now you have a barbarian that can do all the things he use to with rogue, and improve his crit range & ab. Some of you ought to be scared.

That has been ultimately why i gave up umd meta ever changing (shocked it is happening). Is many class cookies are balanced around dips and what not.

That being said, a barbarian that doesn't do a rogue dip loses out on Tumble ac (no small amount) and evasion. And umd still gives qaulity of life buffs.

[ReverentBlade]

Most PWs I've played on/worked for consider the tumble/umd dump to be integral to server balance. Making it necessary cuts down on the number of possible permutations to balance for. While variety is nice, it becomes exponentially harder to balance. We should probably keep it on the easier side of the scale for now, given some of the choices made

[Ork]

I disagree (to malcolm). What quality of life buffs? We have potions of str with higher CL, belt of fortitude with a 15 CL endurance, potions of haste, potions of freedom, potions of death ward.

They can ward up without investing anything into UMD and lore. What do they gain? Higher crit range and AB. What does it cost them? 3 AC & evasion.

[Subutai]

All of this seems bizarre to me, because a fairly straight forward, easily-balanced change would be just to add Mord's, WoF, and maybe TS items to the craft menu.

While that is ideal, prior to this change the level 3 dip cost these classes something. Since you can only take 3 different classes and a mandatory 3 class succession per class, players had to make a hard choice that usually involved an improved class feature or UMD/Tumble. For instance, barbarians use to dip rogue in order to grab UMD/Tumble & missed out of prestige classes like Weapon Master.

Now? If a barbarian player is fortunate enough, he can collect rods of disjunction, WoF & more all without investing any skills. Better yet, he can drop rogue completely from his build and pick up weapon master instead. Now you have a barbarian that can do all the things he use to with rogue, and improve his crit range & ab. Some of you ought to be scared.

I actually agree here. UMD was fine as it was, as far as I was concerned. I should have phrased it differently. If we're going to have the UMD change, I think the solution to the problems it created should be the simple and direct solution of adding craftable rods. It won't solve every issue, and will create some of its own, but it's straight forward enough that it will almost assuredly break much less than stuff like stacks of mord arrows will.

[Might-N-Magic]

Have you considered you might be overreacting just yet?

I mean, the DCs and CLs on spells cast from items is always utter trash, so odds are the same as they would be on any other server... almost negligible to "hail Mary" status if so.

[ReverentBlade]

Disjunction does not care about the DC it is cast it. It will remove a half dozen buffs without checks.

[Aren]

The DC on the shuriken that slays humans on hit, is 26.
But it doesn’t matter, since you can make a build that effectively throws out 8 of them per round, at a -very- high AB.
And the on-hit slay, circumvents death ward.
If you think that it should be alright for someone to have a 5% chance to outright kill you every time they hit you..

[godhand-]

If you think that it should be alright for someone to have a 5% chance to outright kill you every time they hit you..

Hey while we're at it lets re-enable Dev crit.....

[garrbear758]

1. The design of this server is rapidly heading in a direction where power is decided by grinding. This is a terrible design. This is not an MMO where people are forced into a skinner box to pay subscriptions or microtransactions. This is a free server, and it is a roleplay server. If PvP becomes decided by the better grinder, it's going to be less time spent roleplaying, and more time spent grinding. You could say that you can roleplay grinding, but we all know that is not the same as spending time interacting in towns / scheming / playing politics. There is already a heavy grind component in runes and crafting, please don't add more.

2. Get rid of the rods. They're replacing UMD with grinding rather than providing a real long term solution (see point 1).

3. Get rid of these new missiles. Archers did not need any help. It also seems like the expectation was that it would force mundanes to switch to a bow to shoot a few, then switch back to their weapon. I could be wrong, but this strikes me as a huge oversight where someone forgot archers were a thing. In addition, even if they are rare drops in a stack of 1, people will grind, and they will stockpile. This shifts the balance in an extreme direction where the best players will not be decided by character design and skill, but by grinding (see point 1).

4. Change or get rid of timestop. It's overpowered. The only thing that made it balanced was mundanes having access to timestop scrolls, which is no longer the case. I originally thought of having it require an expensive component, but that would bring us back to point 1.

On a more personal level, I (and I'm sure many others on this server) have an extremely stressful job that takes up a ton of my life (100 weeks are not unheard of). I work on a submarine and am often gone from home for months at a time. This server has been my way of escaping and relaxing after long days at work. This shift to a grind mentality is a swift kick in the nuts for myself and anyone else who does not get a lot of free time.

TLDR: The balance changes are shifting the server to grinding deciding who is stronger, rather than skill and character design. This is detrimental to good roleplay due to the timesink, along with hurting players who have less time to play.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

With poisons they can get 5% every hit to paralyze. And everyone still saying they are useless, i can see why 5% death on rotated limited loot may not raise flags for everyone (the disjunctiom arrows seem way rougher)

But shuriken with ubab is a bit rough lol. Especially not respecting death ward when doing a death spell.

Actaully slay 5% is rough for any range build. Like a hips AA.


Dev crit is higher than 5% is it not? Str builds are also already meta without it. Im not saying the items are good additions, just do not think it is comparable.

[Aren]

With poisons they can get 5% every hit to paralyze. And everyone still saying they are useless, i can see why 5% death on rotated limited loot may not raise flags for everyone (the disjunctiom arrows seem way rougher)

But shuriken with ubab is a bit rough lol. Especially not respecting death ward when doing a death spell.

Actaully slay 5% is rough for any range build. Like a hips AA.


Dev crit is higher than 5% is it not? Str builds are also already meta without it. Im not saying the items are good additions, just do not think it is comparable.

Paralysis from poison can be mitigated by Freedom of movement, or even better - the poison immunity belt. And it can be -prayed out of if you get caught off guard or dispelled.

It's not rough. It's absolutely broken and should not be a thing. That's why dev crit was disabled in the first place. Dev crit dc can, on a decent strength build be a 43 DC fortitude save. If it was in the game, you'd just have people stacking fortitude saves - reducing the chance back down to 5% (rolling a 1).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

With poisons they can get 5% every hit to paralyze. And everyone still saying they are useless, i can see why 5% death on rotated limited loot may not raise flags for everyone (the disjunctiom arrows seem way rougher)

But shuriken with ubab is a bit rough lol. Especially not respecting death ward when doing a death spell.

Actaully slay 5% is rough for any range build. Like a hips AA.


Dev crit is higher than 5% is it not? Str builds are also already meta without it. Im not saying the items are good additions, just do not think it is comparable.

Paralysis from poison can be mitigated by Freedom of movement, or even better - the poison immunity belt. And it can be -prayed out of if you get caught off guard or dispelled.

It's not rough. It's absolutely broken and should not be a thing. That's why dev crit was disabled in the first place. Dev crit dc can, on a decent strength build be a 43 DC fortitude save. If it was in the game, you'd just have people stacking fortitude saves - reducing the chance back down to 5% (rolling a 1).

Fair enough. Dev crits also made palemaster memes a lot more powerful/popular due to crit immunities + devastating crits.

But yes, my "bit rough statement" definitely could be interepeted as an extreme understatement.

[Peppermint]

Are we prepared to talk about this?

[Orian_666]

That's gotta be another fake, like the fake Hellball Rod. Right?