Races

[CptJonas]

With news about 5% roll, forums are full of topics on new races...but...There are many races which dont belong to 5% roll...They are not so special...
Why not instead put more races into lesser rewards? There is realy low number of options with those... I am totaly up to adding more options to lower rewards, not even just races, but other things...People tend to sit on pile of low rewards, waiting for that sweet 5% or even Greater one....and that doesnt fit I thing...It just makes elitism on arelith actual thing...

And more to main topic...Races...Why to add more super exotic races...why dont simply add more normal, non award, races to pool...There are plenty more options for surface...and insane number of creatures what could be added to UD....

What do you think about it?

[The GrumpyCat]

Firstly I do agree that we need more options for the lower tier rewards, and that is something I'll be looking into.

But I think we need to be a little wary on what we add, or at least how fast we add, new races to the pool of possiblities.

Ultimatly it's not just about how 'common' a race is, it's also about it's utility and desirability to the player base, and whether it's worth the effort of creating. Lets use an example:

Race 1) Gelatinous Cube
Are they common? Fairly
Would they be difficult to code/balence? - I imagine so
How popular would they be? - Well no one in the 5% thread asked to play one, and personaly my excitement level doesn't run high when I think of the possiblities.
How would they fit in the server? What stories could be made by them? - I just can't see much fun rp coming out of - in the LONG TERM playing a Gelatinous cube. I can't see dozens of playings scrounging to play one. I can't see much very interesting rp coming out of it easily, or where they'd 'fit' in the server. So I'm not sure I see the reason to make it avaiable, even at a low award. I'd rather our dev time was put to making something popular, desired and unique.

Another good example is Quaggoths and Gibberlings - both common. But what exactly does playing a Quaggoth and Gibberling bring to the table, that you don't get out of playing say, a Hobgoblin and a goblin? What unqiue aspect is it bringing to the story of arleith? And even if we come up with dozens of unique races, then isn't there a danger of things becoming too scattered? Too 'zoo like'.

So whilst there will be some new races, and heck - maybe some will even be on the lower tiered rewards, do not expect a massive deluge of them.

[NauVaseline]

Firstly I do agree that we need more options for the lower tier rewards, and that is something I'll be looking into.

I think Exotic Weapon Proficiency would be perfect for Greater Awards

[CptJonas]

Firstly I do agree that we need more options for the lower tier rewards, and that is something I'll be looking into.

But I think we need to be a little wary on what we add, or at least how fast we add, new races to the pool of possiblities.

Ultimatly it's not just about how 'common' a race is, it's also about it's utility and desirability to the player base, and whether it's worth the effort of creating. Lets use an example:

Race 1) Gelatinous Cube
Are they common? Fairly
Would they be difficult to code/balence? - I imagine so
How popular would they be? - Well no one in the 5% thread asked to play one, and personaly my excitement level doesn't run high when I think of the possiblities.
How would they fit in the server? What stories could be made by them? - I just can't see much fun rp coming out of - in the LONG TERM playing a Gelatinous cube. I can't see dozens of playings scrounging to play one. I can't see much very interesting rp coming out of it easily, or where they'd 'fit' in the server. So I'm not sure I see the reason to make it avaiable, even at a low award. I'd rather our dev time was put to making something popular, desired and unique.

Another good example is Quaggoths and Gibberlings - both common. But what exactly does playing a Quaggoth and Gibberling bring to the table, that you don't get out of playing say, a Hobgoblin and a goblin? What unqiue aspect is it bringing to the story of arleith? And even if we come up with dozens of unique races, then isn't there a danger of things becoming too scattered? Too 'zoo like'.

So whilst there will be some new races, and heck - maybe some will even be on the lower tiered rewards, do not expect a massive deluge of them.

Well...what comes to my head first as good example....
We have like 4 types of dwarfs, 5 types or elves, halflings, etc,etc....But why there are just 2 types of greenskins/goblinoids...
We have 2 base - Goblin, Orog..
1 for reward - Hobgoblin
Where are Orcs? Or Bugbears?

I think its good example..afterall....they are super common....Not ultra hard to implement...
And onestly I see only one reason why hobgoblin is in reward not in base...and its just to have something in that tier

[Scylon]

Different varient of humans would be nice

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Firstly I do agree that we need more options for the lower tier rewards, and that is something I'll be looking into.

I think Exotic Weapon Proficiency would be perfect for Greater Awards

I think a free feat for a minor reward is an excellent idea.

[CptJonas]

Free feat...
Bonus skillpoint per level...
Or..heck...just make so reduced ECL alows you take you to take gift on races with higher elc, or bonus feat on no elc races...

[Apokriphos]

I am strongly opposed to increasing the levels of individual player power via the rewards system. It shouldn't just be character boost +1, rewarding grinding with increasing levels of power.

Instead, the ability to play unique and unusual races that add something interesting to the tapestry of stories tha make up Arelith would seem to be what the rewards are for. That is why there is a roleplay rating requirement to create them.

A player shouldn't be penalized mechanically for not chasing the reward system.

[CptJonas]

I am strongly opposed to increasing the levels of individual player power via the rewards system. It shouldn't just be character boost +1, rewarding grinding with increasing levels of power.

Instead, the ability to play unique and unusual races that add something interesting to the tapestry of stories tha make up Arelith would seem to be what the rewards are for. That is why there is a roleplay rating requirement to create them.

A player shouldn't be penalized mechanically for not chasing the reward system.

But there is allready reward system...and it allready have mechanically and RP beneficial choices...only problem is that its totaly backloaded...nearly all in 5 -10%...

Which mean problem is here...and as bonus it creates elitism...so why not add something good and cool in low rewards? In those who can nearly anyone get...so its like all rewards are good from mechanical point...only those higher are more cool and rare...

[CptJonas]

But please dont go off topic ...we dont need to start discusion about whats wrong or good about reward system...that would lead to quick lockdown

[NauVaseline]

Instead, the ability to play unique and unusual races that add something interesting to the tapestry of stories tha make up Arelith would seem to be what the rewards are for. That is why there is a roleplay rating requirement to create them.

A player shouldn't be penalized mechanically for not chasing the reward system.

You're not being penalized. It's unfortunate you see it that way.

Furthermore, not everyone finds special races interesting. I personally find them to be gimmicky and often a multiplier in character burnout. I'd much rather have character sheet bonuses that would let me try out an interesting build that wouldn't otherwise be viable.

[Apokriphos]

Instead, the ability to play unique and unusual races that add something interesting to the tapestry of stories tha make up Arelith would seem to be what the rewards are for. That is why there is a roleplay rating requirement to create them.

A player shouldn't be penalized mechanically for not chasing the reward system.

You're not being penalized. ...

It is absolutely a penalty if the reward system is modified to grant additional feats, skills, and ability boosts to base races with no basis in the role or PnP abilities of the race involved.

That is simple power creep, and would become the new Meta. It would also require rebalancing of all encounters in Arelith to take into account the new boosts.

[Aniel]

To throw in my thoughts: Awards should open up unique new RP possibilities. That should mean classes, paths, races, backgrounds, etc.

What I don't see enabling anything new or exciting in RP is an award that says gain +1 AB or a feat, or HP, or skill points.

[NauVaseline]

It is absolutely a penalty if the reward system is modified to grant additional feats, skills, and ability boosts to base races with no basis in the role or PnP abilities of the race involved.

That is simple power creep, and would become the new Meta. It would also require rebalancing of all encounters in Arelith to take into account the new boosts.

No, it wouldn't, because upper tier rewards aren't as common as you think. Someone suggested minor, yes, I am not suggesting that however. 5% or Greater. If people want to invest hundreds of hours of their life into grinding for these rewards then it's their peragative to waste their life doing so. You are being alarmist, and it's silly.

Players were already able to request things like that in the first place for 5%. There have +6 stat bonuses, double-strength/length bardsongs, uber items, all granted. It's about sacrificing something you invested a lot of time into and getting to play with something fun for your trouble. That, and preventing character stagnancy, was the whole point in the first place.

[JubJub]

I am curious why ogres are now a major reward.

[CptJonas]

To throw in my thoughts: Awards should open up unique new RP possibilities. That should mean classes, paths, races, backgrounds, etc.

What I don't see enabling anything new or exciting in RP is an award that says gain +1 AB or a feat, or HP, or skill points.

Thats where we differ...I dont care so much About mechanical benefits...if someone have one more feat or 2 more base STR...I dont care so much...

But when you cant roleplay as certain classes and races...thats what is more detrement...especialy on RP server...

I still remember how from day 1 on arelith I wanted to play and RP Palemaster...and how I was pissed that I couldnt do it bcs of RPR....(which took me 2 years to get...and just bcs how that system is works...) And to this day I want to RP Undead and imp thx to random RNG grind fest system...so yeah...do you get why I didnt want to talk more on this off topic?

[CptJonas]

I am curious why ogres are now a major reward.

Probably too many of them allready...it was samé with imp...he was on medium award and jumped 2 whole ranks up

[Kalopsia]

Allowing awards to increase characters' stats would make players that don't actively grind awards mechanically inferior to those that do. I'm opposed to that thought as it would further a "must grind to be competitive"-mentality.

In my opinion, awards should always be limited to flavor, and never revolve solely around mechanical power.

[NauVaseline]

The character sheet directly affects your roleplay. I'm not sure why people think implementing unique races, which often come with ludicrously bad or ludicrously good stat modifiers, is any different from getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a Major award.

EDIT: You're already inferior to a # of the special, unique races that have been approved in the past. Illithid, Vampires, Dragons, even Tieflings, Genasi, etc

[CptJonas]

Allowing awards to increase characters' stats would make players that don't actively grind awards mechanically inferior to those that do. I'm opposed to that thought as it would further a "must grind to be competitive"-mentality.

In my opinion, awards should always be limited to flavor, and never revolve solely around mechanical power.

Grind...we are talking about low rewards...everyone can get small or medium award...

And as was said...you are allready mechanically inferior to high reward races so whats different in giving something that everyone can get to lover that Gap? What would esencialy make those high reward races less about powa and more abou RP...

[Kalopsia]

Allowing awards to increase characters' stats would make players that don't actively grind awards mechanically inferior to those that do. I'm opposed to that thought as it would further a "must grind to be competitive"-mentality.

In my opinion, awards should always be limited to flavor, and never revolve solely around mechanical power.

Grind...we are talking about low rewards...everyone can get small or medium award...

And as was said...you are allready mechanically inferior to high reward races so whats different in giving something that everyone can get to lover that Gap? What would esencialy make those high reward races less about powa and more abou RP...

I can already see people going:
"Hmm, I have this wonderful RP idea."
"... Oh, just realized I ran out of awards with my last char."
"Seems like I'll have to grind a char to 16 or 21 first, to get optimal stats/feats on the char I actually want to play (and RP)."

... and that's the best case scenario. There is players that can't afford the time to quickly grind a character to 21. A change like this would hurt them a lot, as all of their chars would be objectively worse than those of people than can afford to grind. Furthermore, it has the potential to lower Arelith's RP quality as the number of award grind characters increases and battles over "optimal" grind spots ensue.

Certain award races are overpowered, I agree - but this is not a justification to buff everyone (except the characters of casual players). Much rather, it should result in adjustments to bring these races in line with all others, so that people choose to play them for the RP and not the mechanical power.

[Wuthering]

I think the personal issue I have with special races is you are usually the only one around. It's not likely we'll see a community of minotaurs so if you're playing one you're basically a freak show or loner among other races for whatever reason. This may appeal to some people and that's totally cool.. I wouldn't argue for taking them away.. but when cashing an award I'd really also like the option to be able to play a human or hin with a special gift like being able to scry or teleport on a non-caster or an immunity to poison or a huge bonus to one skill. Seems to me there would be dozens or hundreds of possibilities there..

[CptJonas]

Allowing awards to increase characters' stats would make players that don't actively grind awards mechanically inferior to those that do. I'm opposed to that thought as it would further a "must grind to be competitive"-mentality.

In my opinion, awards should always be limited to flavor, and never revolve solely around mechanical power.

Grind...we are talking about low rewards...everyone can get small or medium award...

And as was said...you are allready mechanically inferior to high reward races so whats different in giving something that everyone can get to lover that Gap? What would esencialy make those high reward races less about powa and more abou RP...

I can already see people going:
"Hmm, I have this wonderful RP idea."
"... Oh, just realized I ran out of awards with my last char."
"Seems like I'll have to grind a char to 16 or 21 first, to get optimal stats/feats on the char I actually want to play (and RP)."

... and that's the best case scenario. There is players that can't afford the time to quickly grind a character to 21. A change like this would hurt them a lot, as all of their chars would be objectively worse than those of people than can afford to grind. Furthermore, it has the potential to lower Arelith's RP quality as the number of award grind characters increases and battles over "optimal" grind spots ensue.

Certain award races are overpowered, I agree - but this is not a justification to buff everyone (except the characters of casual players). Much rather, it should result in adjustments to bring these races in line with all others, so that people choose to play them for the RP and not the mechanical power.

Well...As I said earlier...I cant agree...I think that grind to get chance for RP character is worse...its basicly grind to play RP aspect you want...

And people who would kill of their old chars just bcs they are weaker by what? One feat? 2 stats? Are allready type of people who grind for 5% for cool and powa...so what changed?

You can actualy stop moust of those grinders...bcs...why to grind to play aasimar to get get bonus stat when you can use xy mediums you are siting on to get same power result?

[CptJonas]

I think the personal issue I have with special races is you are usually the only one around. It's not likely we'll see a community of minotaurs so if you're playing one you're basically a freak show or loner among other races for whatever reason. This may appeal to some people and that's totally cool.. I wouldn't argue for taking them away.. but when cashing an award I'd really also like the option to be able to play a human or hin with a special gift like being able to scry or teleport on a non-caster or an immunity to poison or a huge bonus to one skill. Seems to me there would be dozens or hundreds of possibilities there..

Speaking to my my hearth...I allways looked up to that "ask for something special" then some race...
Like be able to play bard and barbarian together...or have magic staff that have stats that ofset that you cant take staff feats, just bcs I love magic staff combat animations

[JubJub]

I think the personal issue I have with special races is you are usually the only one around. It's not likely we'll see a community of minotaurs so if you're playing one you're basically a freak show or loner among other races for whatever reason. This may appeal to some people and that's totally cool.. I wouldn't argue for taking them away.. but when cashing an award I'd really also like the option to be able to play a human or hin with a special gift like being able to scry or teleport on a non-caster or an immunity to poison or a huge bonus to one skill. Seems to me there would be dozens or hundreds of possibilities there..

Like with what happened with dragons, there is suddenly a lot of them, but then in a few months after the coolness factor wears off most have vanished.