Enchantment School Rework Request

[Apokriphos]

With the loss of mass haste and protection from spells, the Enchantment School has begun to look significantly lackluster, and I believe this has become a problem.

It is now an ideal choice of a banned school for most arcane spellcasters. Nearly all of its spells can be defeated by an easily accessible immunity - either lesser mind blank or clarity, and its unique utility spells of mass haste and protection are no longer a trade off loss a player would have to make. Additionally, the Epic Spell Focus perk allowing multiple dominations at a time requires three uses to work correctly.

My proposal:

1). Grant 1 use/day of Dominate Monster to spellcasters with ESF Enchantment. This will both boost the school potency and address the issue with the multiple domination bug.

2). Create new spells that act like utility spells that every mage would want to have. Perhaps ones similar to Mindfog that provide an effect even when the target makes the spell save. These could act as Reflexfog, and Fortitudefog, respectively.

3). The premise of the Enchantment Spellschool could use a new theme. In pen and paper, there are a series of enchantment spells that allow you to enchant objects with spells that would behave as traps. They would also be able to be disabled by a rogue as normal. Adding this functionality in the form of new spells would increase the viability of this school.

The power word series of spells are enchantment spells traditionally, and feeblemind is as well. Both could be moved to the Enchantment Spell school. However - this would create a whole new problem - one of Divination being left with very few useful offensive spells, far in lacking to its pnp counterpart, and requiring a new rework itself.

Please take a look at this school. It needs work.

[Anomandaris]

[MERGED INTO THIS THREAD BY IRONGRON FROM SUGGESTION]

Enchantment could definitely use some love, especially after it no longer gives you basin enchanting. It's already by nature easy to counter via simple spells, potions & wands, plus many classes can outright beat the DC's. There's a couple small things that could make it more balanced compared to the other schools ESF choices and thus increase the diversity of caster play-style.

ESF Grants active aura ability (similar to intimidating shout but different). This aura could offer a save debuff, dazed or stun on DC, reduced AB/AC or some sort of benefit to the caster.

Put Mass blindness/Deafness into Enchantment school. Blindness Deafness is currently an enchantment spell, why is the same spell but for larger target area illusion? This prob means Illusion needs something as a replacement.

Generally adding some higher lvl spells would be helpful as once you get to spell lvl 8/9 it gets pretty thin. Since DC is based in part by Spell Level, this hurts. Dominate monster is great but something more usable in CvC would be handy. For example, maybe a "damage shield" like spell that when struck by melee weapons forces opponent to make a will save or be experience a debuff or some sort etc. I'm sure there are good concepts or other spells from PnP that could be implemented.

[Irongron]

Moving this one to feedback, as this suggestion is a bit lengthy and I can't approve every aspect of it. Hopefully in feedback players and devs can discuss the Enchantment School in more depth.

[NauVaseline]

Enchantment is pretty strong, in my experience, however it has slowly degraded to being subpar to the other spell schools. Fixing the broken Dominate Monster mechanic and implementing the long promised epic Enchantment Cookie spell would go a LONG way towards bringing it back up to par with say, Conjuration or Evocation.


I really do not want to see Mind Blank nerfed, as disabling spells are patently unfun to be on the receiving end of (literally can't do anything), though maybe Lesser Mind Blank could be converted into a massive Will Bonus instead.

[Diegovog]

Enchantment is in a terrible spot. It's a no brainer pick for Spellswords to drops enchantment and it won't be missed in the slightest.

The problem is that it can easily completely break the balance if not handled carefully. I really think it's a bad idea to have a "fortfog" and "reflexfog". I would suggest trying to create useful but not pvp breaking spells for the enchantment school.

[Morgy]

What about the concept of empowering NPCs with spell foci in enchantment? Rather like the conjuration bonuses given to summons.
This could make enchanted npcs a decent alternative to the traditional summons for leveling.

Perhaps the type of creatures dominated with dominate person could be widened with spell foci too, so as to make minions more of an option - for example, I feel like giants should could under dominate person as they are mostly partially humanoid.

[JustMonika]

... What do you mean no Mass Haste? Did I miss something? The Wiki lists no changes to Mass Haste.

[magistrasa]

It's a little strange that the power word spells are divination, when in P&P that has never been the case (as far as I've seen at least). I mean, it makes sense within the logic of the universe to make the power word spells based on divination, but man, it really came outta nowhere.

I think it's important to follow the rules of the world we're in and ensure that every change makes sense within the logic of the world. "Changing the theme" of the enchantment school would absolutely break that logic.

In pen and paper, there are a series of enchantment spells that allow you to enchant objects with spells that would behave as traps.

That'd fall under the domain of Transmutation, which is why enchantment was unlinked from enchantment basins in favor of a new dweomercraft system. This is also why haste got axed out of enchantment and put in its rightful place - it shouldn't have been lumped together with enchantment in the first place.

I think enchantment is in a very low-end place in the pack right now, but it's not entirely useless - it's just sort of niche. Mass Confusion can be very fun, especially considering that it can be done as a higher level spell under Mass Charm due to the update it got. The Dominate line of spells can be used to great effect. Mind Fog is amazing and is a mainstay in many spellbooks. It just sucks that a lot of these spells can't directly affect a player or creature if they've put on some mental immunity, or are WIS based. But that's just the way this game works in a lot of different areas, unfortunately. To change that dynamic would be to change the pillars upon which the system stands.

Off the cuff, I'd say my suggestions for the enchantment school are:
- An ESF cookie (Not that spellswords will care, haha losers)
- A more reliable, unbroken dominate monster, in line with what was promised in our beautiful amazing update. The once per day casting suggested by OP might go towards making that happen!
- Maybe make the associated infinicast Charm instead of Blindness/Deafness? In all the enchanters I played, I never made much use out of B/D.

I'm on the fence about a change to Lesser Mind Blank, personally. On one hand, it's an extremely important spell to the meta, but on the other, the only thing that makes it "lesser" is that it only affects one target. It eliminates any need for Clarity when a wizard is in the party. I think changing the spell into a will save boost is a really, really interesting idea. Maybe not good, but definitely interesting to consider. If it did become a will save boost, I'd recommend a significant boost, like a +10 or more (if the game even allows that, I don't remember soft/hard cap numbers tbh), so it's still got some potency, but is an imperfect mental guard nonetheless. Something that occasionally - at least 5% of the time - will fail. And keep the VFX the same, so the prospective mental manipulator can never be entirely sure how strong someone's guard is.

All in all, I think enchantment is good, but could surely be better. It's not desperate for a change, and has some really awesome effects and utility in combat. The recent update really boosted its profile, though indeed it's still probably lesser to the other spell schools in most circumstances. But someone's always gotta be in last place, I suppose. Enchantment is just bringing up the rear in style.

[Xarge VI]

Brainstorming here.

Change Clarity and Mind Blank to give +15 will saves vs spells in addition to giving immunity to mind effecting stuff.
Allow those with epic spell focus in enchantment bypass the mind immunity.

According to my quick math:
This would give epic level characters with low will saves (such as rogue) and full save gears reliable ability to make the save against these mind spells and since it requires an epic spell focus it doesn't allow warlocks to spam their way through clarity.

Combined with Mind Fog it would make epic enchanters a real threat in the battlefield.

[Anomandaris]

I put in a request a while ago about Enchantment. Some ESF ability like an Aura (similar but different to Intimidating shout) that could be debuffing enemies or something along those lines (reduction of AB, will saves or something like that while in the aura). It would go a long way in helping bring the school up to snuff.

Also the fact that mass blindness/deafness is illusion and blindness/deafness is enchantment makes no sense to me.

I think the suggestion to make successful saves reduce the save temporarily and stack is a great one. Makes sense, if you're resisting a barrage of mental attacks it should eventually wear you down a bit. If you succeed a will save it should drain your will slightly (-x to future will saves for y time). This would make DC spells in general more viable against builds that stack saves, but not OP as it still requires multiple rounds and only slightly increases the chance, assuming you've breached past the immunity to begin with.

[Irongron]

Just in case anyone missed it, I merged a second suggestion on this topic into this thread, the second post above.

[Apokriphos]

My simple wish would be to improve the school in such a manner that it is no longer a mandatory prohibited spell choice for all specialist arcane spellcasters and spellswords that want an additional spellslot every level.

I still believe that a Mindfog variant for Fortitude and Reflex would be the simplest way to make the school less of an easy choice for arcane prohibition. However, as it recently lost both Mass Haste and Protection from Spells, perhaps defensive spells could also be considered. Some suggestions:

Mark of Concealment: 5th Level Wizard/Sorceror/Bard Enchantment Spell
Target player is etched with a detailed mark hidden beneath their clothing that provides a +10 bonus to their bluff score lasting turns per level. Casting the spell Fairy Fire nullifies the bonus granted from this spell.

Stay the Hand: https://dndtools.net/spells/players-han ... and--2956/
If the target creature fails its save against stay the hand, it refrains from attacking you or targeting you with spells for the remainder of the current round (or a period of 3 seconds). You can cast this spell during an opponent's turn after the opponent announces its intention to attack you or target you with a spell. - This spell would act like a single target extremely short duration respite on a failed will save.

Regarding the comment that imbuing items with an effect does not fall under the enchantment school, please see the following pnp spells:

https://dndtools.net/spells/players-han ... thy--2579/
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Symbol_of_Stunning
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Symbol_of_Persuasion
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Symbol_of_Sleep
There are many others, including ones for Thirst and Hunger.

Each involves marking a surface to trigger an effect, and falls traditionally under Enchantment.

I would be against moving spells from other schools to this one, especially considering that we can make our own now. NWN would seem to have balanced its spell choice by taking into account the limited number of spells it chose to implement in the game, and disrupting that just adds more work to fix the schools you take from.

[Skarain]

I will chime in, from the perspective of someone who plays an Enchanter Sorcerer.

The school is thematically great, and does have it mechanical uses and benefits.

-With ESF: Enchantment bonuses, Mind Fog and Confusion (together or separately) become strong crowd-control tools.
-Dominate Monster/Person provides an additional damage dealer (if you choose your target wisely)
-The soft bonus to Persuade, Perform and Bluff is a neat bonus (if you can afford those skills in terms of skill points)
-Auto-success in social interactions with NPC's when Charmed or Dominated is the icing on the cake.

Blindness/Deafness is alright being the Enchantment infinite-cast spell. Your stronger Crowd Control spells are all Will-save, so having a Fort-save spell that you can keep trying to land is fine.

I do not find the fact that everything in PvP is countered with Mind-Immunity. It's the same with Necromancy or Illusion; they got to breach their targets wards with Mords or similiar to get their effect through.

-----------

But yes, there is the point that a non-specialized Enchanter "loses" nothing for selecting Enchantment as their prohibited school, and general rework request as there are some features that are lackluster or otherwise simply do not work.

1.) As mentioned before, the "Multiple Domination Bug" causes your ESF: Enchantment perk of Dominate 2x targets - to break control on the 1st creature when you dominate a 2nd. You -can- re-dominate the first one, but that is costly in terms of spell-slot management.

It would be nice to get this bug fixed, as it offsets the strength of the spec, or create an alternative.

In terms of ESF Enchantment Cookie: [Create Thrall] - "Target one creature you have Dominated. This target becomes a Henchmen under your command. It persists through resting, heals through resting, (maybe) has an inventory you can manage, and (maybe) creates a token in your inventory that can be used to summon/unsummon the Thrall."

I've no idea if such can be done; to spawn any monster of the game as your Henchmen, after you first make it yours. You will naturally be able to have just a single one. It would however help with the disadvantage Enchantment have: Your Dominates do not last forever, and you lose them when you rest (usually wanting to kill you), or when you Server Transit.

Could also just disappear as normal, but persist through resting. If it uses a different system than Dominates, then the Dominate Monster bug can be fixed by disallowing multiple Dominates (as the "Henchmen" uses a different system/slot)

It would be thematic and an Epic Enchanting cookie worth drooling for.

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PS: Oh, and move "Enchantment" spells back to "Enchantments". Power Word-line & Mass Blindness/Deafness. We can have Custom Spells now with Haks, so you can path the holes with those. Besides, Divination's strength is in Scry and it cookies. Illusion is messangers and illusionary copies of players. Neither will be hurting badly, for those spells are not why people take those school feats. It's the cookies/effects.

[NauVaseline]

In terms of ESF Enchantment Cookie: [Create Thrall] - "Target one creature you have Dominated. This target becomes a Henchmen under your command. It persists through resting, heals through resting, (maybe) has an inventory you can manage, and (maybe) creates a token in your inventory that can be used to summon/unsummon the Thrall."

I've no idea if such can be done; to spawn any monster of the game as your Henchmen, after you first make it yours. You will naturally be able to have just a single one. It would however help with the disadvantage Enchantment have: Your Dominates do not last forever, and you lose them when you rest (usually wanting to kill you), or when you Server Transit.

Could also just disappear as normal, but persist through resting. If it uses a different system than Dominates, then the Dominate Monster bug can be fixed by disallowing multiple Dominates (as the "Henchmen" uses a different system/slot)

It would be thematic and an Epic Enchanting cookie worth drooling for.

This is dope.

PS: Oh, and move "Enchantment" spells back to "Enchantments". Power Word-line & Mass Blindness/Deafness. We can have Custom Spells now with Haks, so you can path the holes with those. Besides, Divination's strength is in Scry and it cookies. Illusion is messangers and illusionary copies of players. Neither will be hurting badly, for those spells are not why people take those school feats. It's the cookies/effects.

I disagree with this. Those school's kinda sucked before hand and taking it for the cookie was a suboptimal self-gimp.

[Skarain]

I disagree with this. Those school's kinda sucked before hand and taking it for the cookie was a suboptimal self-gimp.

Fair. I can only speak from the dedicated enchanter perspective. I did propose though that they would get something equally thematic and good to patch those holes though, not just 'removing' but 'replacing', but that is a bit big of an ordeal to do. Maybe someday.

[Apokriphos]

I think Epic Enchanters are not necessarily hurting here. They need some adjustments, like my suggestion of once day dominate monster or something similar that will make them on par. The rest of the perks cookies are good.

The problem is the school itself. Adjustments need to be made so that spellswords and others who never planned to take enchantment in the first place make a legitimate trade off (such as loss of useful utility spells) instead of a strict power boost.

[Skarain]

The problem is the school itself. Adjustments need to be made so that spellswords and others who never planned to take enchantment in the first place make a legitimate trade off (such as loss of useful utility spells) instead of a strict power boost.

Alright. I can work with that. D&D 3.5 and NWN2 both presents the spells "Heroism" and "Greater Heroism".

Heroism
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.

We already have this spell in the form of "Good Hope", the Bard-only spell below:

Good Hope
Caster Level(s): Bard 3
Innate Level: 3
School: Enchantment
Descriptor(s):
Component(s): Verbal
Range: Personal
Area of Effect / Target: Large
Duration: 1 Round / Level
Additional Counter Spells: Crushing Despair
Save: Harmless
Spell Resistance: No

This spell instills powerful hope in the subjects. Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws and skill checks.

Now, this was nerfed on Arelith to no longer provide +2 bonus to Attack Rolls. Baradin would have become too good, supposedly.

Heroism, Greater
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell functions like heroism, except the creature gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, immunity to fear effects, and temporary hit points equal to your caster level (maximum 20).

From what I looked, 3.5e D&D Enchantment was balanced around losing these two spells if you choose Enchantment as your Forbidden School.

3e (which NWN1 is based on) have zero utility Enchantment spells, so they had to move Mass Haste and Protection from Spells into that school (for it to not be the "right" school to dump).

Are "Heroism" spells insanely powerful? Yes. If they were to be introduced -as they are-, they would be almost mandatory to have for EVERY Sorcerer/Wizard out there.

Thus, they could probably do some adjustments, and probably made unavailable to Bards (for same reason as Good Hope was nerfed).

Adjustment Thoughts.
Come to think of it, what if Good Hope was introduced out as "Heroism" and given to Wizards/Sorcerers, slightly tuned. Maybe as a level 5 spell (so that you can't wand it, and because level 6 spells .....Sorcerers are spell-selection starved, and Wizards have already "too many good spells here"-starved).

Would it break Arelith's balance if it have +2 bonus to all those things? What of a +3 bonus? Or a +4 Bonus to those things & the Fear Immunity? Temporary hit points would be nice and fitting to the "Heroism" theme.

Would Fear Immunity, Saving Throw Bonus and Temporary Hit Points be attractive enough for Wizard/Sorcerers/Spellswords without the Attack Bonus? Good Hope for sure feels lackluster with it's short duration and +2 buffs, so it needs to be stronger than that.

What of Fear Immunity & Temporary Hit Points only? Too weak?

What if you give it also the +4 Attack bonus? Too strong?

What if the attack bonus is only +2 or +3 and it being a 5th Level spell? Will any AB increase make Spellswords overpowered?

Will a +4 to all Saves break the game balance? I can imagine it causing problems with Sorcerer/Divine-DIP getting even higher Saves than they have currently.

Someone more skilled at Game Balancing is free to answer these questions.

[Wuthering]

I have immensely more fun in PVE on my wizard who has enchantment focuses than my sorcerer who doesn't. I understand it's considered the worst school for PVP but dominate spells alone are a total blast. Extending the duration of them is a bonus worth at least investing in GSF if you can spare the feats.

I would also like to see the ability to make a thrall as the ESF capstone. As in make an NPC a permanent slave that persists through resting, like Rangers are able to do with animals. It would be some pretty great RP too since it's a pretty morally dubious if not downright evil thing to do.

[Apokriphos]

The problem is the school itself. Adjustments need to be made so that spellswords and others who never planned to take enchantment in the first place make a legitimate trade off (such as loss of useful utility spells) instead of a strict power boost.

What if you give it also the +4 Attack bonus? Too strong?

What if the attack bonus is only +2 or +3 and it being a 5th Level spell? Will any AB increase make Spellswords overpowered?

Will a +4 to all Saves break the game balance? I can imagine it causing problems with Sorcerer/Divine-DIP getting even higher Saves than they have currently.

Someone more skilled at Game Balancing is free to answer these questions.

I saw these spells when I was looking through the list for suggestions to propose and immediately dismissed them.

Saves are already massively too high for anything but the most extreme DC focused build to get them off in pvp, due mostly to proliferation of +saves gear from dweumercrafting. There have been several threads discussing this very topic. A saves boost or immunity to fear would invalidate even more spells and act in opposition to the goals of this change to benefit the enchantment school, while boosting spellswords, an already very powerful class.

Utility spells that provide boons to skills, subtract from saves, or act like the symbols examples I suggested would be less likely to cause future balance problems with power creep - while boosting saves, attack bonus and damage will definitely do so.

[Skarain]

Utility spells that provide boons to skills, subtract from saves, or act like the symbols examples I suggested would be less likely to cause future balance problems with power creep - while boosting saves, attack bonus and damage will definitely do so.

Alright.

In the bounds of Utility, I have a few thoughts.

--Every focus feat in Enchantment grants a +2 passive, soft bonus to Persuade, Perform and Bluff.
--Having GSF Enchantment will allow a character to automatically succeed in some social interactions with NPCs, when that NPC is charmed or dominated.

Social Skills overhaul is incoming soon(tm), or at least it's been hinted of.

Depending on how strong those benefits are, and whether "Leadership" (former Persuade) will have any substantial impact, Enchantment might become more attractive.

Having Enchantment focuses perhaps unlocking you the ability to spend Skill Points in social skills without multiclassing?

A bonus to buying and selling due to your [Beguiling Influence], perhaps adding Appraisal to the list of Soft bonuses Enchantment Spell Focuses give? Or a greater bonus to buy/sell prices upon using a Charm spell on a merchant.

Plus, if the Social Skills get their overhaul, it may make a lot more checks in where having the ability to 'Charm' the NPC in question will save time and money, and grant access to places and shortcuts.

---

In terms of Combat Utility, What if "Greater Heroism" or "Heroism" (or whatever it is called) gave 20 Temporary HP and +1 Regen/round?

"Through magical compulsion, you gain the ability to push through pain and heroically stand fast mere inches of death, finding the strength to carry on despite all odds. You gain 1 Temporary HP per level (max 20) and 1 Regeneration every 1 Round."

OR... maybe the "1 Regeneration every 1 round" stacks up to 20-30 Overhealing, a lesser version of Healer's Overheal in a sort-of enchantment "trick yourself into ignoring your wounds"- inspiring fashion?

The healing will be so minor in PvP that it won't be game-breaking, and it will always be better to have a Cleric or a Healer providing 'proper' regeneration. However, it will be a sacrifice, forcing you to spend more money on healing supplies, just like you would lose -8 on saves before by taking Enchantment as a Forbidden School and lose Protection from Spells.