Wrips wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:23 pm
I'm mostly talking about mechanical power. Mechanical versatility, after all, broadens the path for roleplay.
If the question about certain races being under represented in the server was solely a question of mechanical power, then the UD would have been made of Orog Bardguards.
Problem isnt pure power...but power with combination with versatility...
Jack of all trades, master of non...is good concept...but no...Jack of all trades, master of all...
Versatile option should allways be a little bít weaker then specialized one...
Since no one seems to have mentioned it (or I missed it): Half-Elves start the game with fluency in Elven. That's another benefit they get.
And just to defend half-elf players here, I've seen plenty of half-elves who aren't either of those cookie cutter builds. Wizards, Monks, and even Sorceresses. Not everyone cares about playing min-maxed things.
MissEvelyn wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:07 amAnd just to defend half-elf players here, I've seen plenty of half-elves who aren't either of those cookie cutter builds. Wizards, Monks, and even Sorceresses. Not everyone cares about playing min-maxed things.
Then it really shouldn't matter to you if they're changed.
MissEvelyn wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:07 am
Since no one seems to have mentioned it (or I missed it): Half-Elves start the game with fluency in Elven. That's another benefit they get.
I must have missed the part where they can find a book in-game that gives them an extra feat and skill point per level if they study long enough.
Half elves should be able to choose between the human model (more heads, half-elf is just a worse human, limited head choice.) and the elven model.
NWN doesn't really sell you that they are these figures that could pass for either. Could be very neat for aesthetics (and those male elf heads with beards now suddenly make sense.)
If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen are defrocked, shouldn't it follow that cowboys would be deranged?
Half elves should be able to choose between the human model (more heads, half-elf is just a worse human, limited head choice.) and the elven model.
NWN doesn't really sell you that they are these figures that could pass for either. Could be very neat for aesthetics (and those male elf heads with beards now suddenly make sense.)
Yeah...exactly...elf with beard...and same could be said about those perfect half orc heads that human have..
The way the server is set up, optimizing your character's build is not only allowed, but appears to be straight up encouraged in order to get the best gameplay experience.
IMHO it's bad form to shame other players for doing that.
That being said, it would seem that compelling arguments about the half-elf subrace being mechanically inferior to its counterparts have been made and were countered only with "but they get a lot of token RP cookies to make up for it".
RP cookies do not equal raw mechanical power. Let's not mix apples with oranges.
But for sake of discussion, + 1 str is not OP when compared to 33 skill points. Many cookie cutter builds before lore changes would roll 16 int when non human just for the skills points.
I do feel it may create way too many half elves though if it ended up being as versatile as humans.
-XXX- wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:43 pm
The way the server is set up, optimizing your character's build is not only allowed, but appears to be straight up encouraged in order to get the best gameplay experience.
What evidence do you have for that? The entire server is soloable, on a server designed for party play. And I don't mean, 'Soloable by a great min-maxed optomised build' I mean, 'Soloable by randomly thrown together characters not built well.' There's no way to 'Win', Arelith can be played and enjoyed fully by hanging around on in Cordor as a level three commoner handing out nuts.
In what way is optomising your build 'encouraged'? The only rewards the server offers are by rolling characters, and the best way to do that is to take negative ECL to level faster - Taking the gift of humility over +2 con is the opposite of optomised!
Temporarily back to Arelith and currently 'Hanna'.
I think it goes without saying that optimization means faster access to levels, loot and gear. I don't believe Arelith is soloable, however. And there are clearly some builds that do it much better than others.
Why not make different half-elven "special races" as option?
Each having slightly different stats and skills, like their fullblooded elven cousins but just not more potent to uphold the difference.
Half-Wild and Wood Elves? Give them track and maybe focus on bow?
Half-Drow? Darkvision and xanarless? (Make them happen!)
Half-Moon and Sun? Dont know yet since they're similar like normal elf, so I guess they would just get change on base stats.
Petrifictus wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:31 am
Why not make different half-elven "special races" as option?
Each having slightly different stats and skills, like their fullblooded elven cousins but just not more potent to uphold the difference.
Half-Wild and Wood Elves? Give them track and maybe focus on bow?
Half-Drow? Darkvision and xanarless? (Make them happen!)
Half-Moon and Sun? Dont know yet since they're similar like normal elf, so I guess they would just get change on base stats.
This is little more "big" then I would expect to happen from devs...but still...good idea...
It could be that those moust common would be automatic...those little bít more rare on small reward...and half-drow could be on medium reward...so there is no sudden influx of new players playing half-drows (which would be quite hard to pull of) and as bonus we would have finaly something interesting on those lower reward tiers...it sucks to have it like Greater/5% or just some -ECl on next Char
JustMonika wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:01 pm
What evidence do you have for that? The entire server is soloable, on a server designed for party play. And I don't mean, 'Soloable by a great min-maxed optomised build' I mean, 'Soloable by randomly thrown together characters not built well.' There's no way to 'Win', Arelith can be played and enjoyed fully by hanging around on in Cordor as a level three commoner handing out nuts.
In what way is optomising your build 'encouraged'? The only rewards the server offers are by rolling characters, and the best way to do that is to take negative ECL to level faster - Taking the gift of humility over +2 con is the opposite of optomised!
Could the fact that the DEVs do not seem to be using a character's nut dispensing ability as the go-to metric for making balance based decisions be presented as a strong enough evidence?
The game rewards players for having an optimized build by allowing them to do more, faster and better. It also allows players to partake and compete in PvP in a more relevant fashion. The only "trade-off" attached to this option being the fact that the DMs ask of the players to RP their character's stats - meaning that if a half-orc warrior ends up with an exceptionally low CHA and INT score as a result of min/maxing, their player is expected not to RP them as some kind of a warrior-poet-philosopher.
In essence I think that we might agree that the upsides outweigh the downsides, so in a way players are encouraged by being presented an option with more upsides than the other alternatives.
But the real point that I was actually trying to make was that optimized building is a legitimate way of playing the game and nobody should be shamed for choosing not to play a multiplayer game with a self-imposed handicap.
That being said, most discussions revolving around balance issues are mostly relevant with the top-tier A-game super-optimized overequipped gauges in mind. The number of starting languages or extra fancy exclusive areas a character can access because of their race does not really matter here.
I think it is fair to say certain optimal builds are expected by the devs. Almost every class update in the past few years has been based on optimized building. I always use close to optimal builds just because when class changes come in the optimal builds tend to be tweaked a little but if you're playing some funky variant the changes can hit you much harder.
It's not mandatory to play that way to enjoy the game especially if you travel in groups and don't do high end PVP and if you understand why optimal builds are the way they are you can drift away from them and still make solid characters.
Of course they balence mechanical balence around mechanical balence. What else would they use to balence it?
That doesn't mean they're incentivising it, that's a bizzare conclusion. They're doing the opposite. They've been providing cookies to the less good builds in order to encourage people to play them. For example, there are now perks to playing a straight level 30 fighter.
This is not an optimal, good, or 'top tier' build, but the dev's have deliberately given perks for playing it.
Giving roleplaying cookies to divination to encourage people to take a feat that orginally did nothing but provide DC to feeble mind. This to you is encouraging 'Optimal' builds?
Temporarily back to Arelith and currently 'Hanna'.
JustMonika wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:18 pm
I mean...
Of course they balence mechanical balence around mechanical balence. What else would they use to balence it?
That's the second time you've insulted me in a reply. Be civil. We can disagree and I'm not "bizarre" or an idiot for seeing things in a different way.
JustMonika wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:18 pm
I mean...
Of course they balence mechanical balence around mechanical balence. What else would they use to balence it?
That's the second time you've insulted me in a reply. Be civil. We can disagree and I'm not "bizarre" or an idiot for seeing things in a different way.
That was a question, not an insult. I apologise if you found it insulting, it certainly wasn't my intent. I am simply extremely confused by your reasoning and would honestly like clarification and provided my reasoning as to why I don't understand how you can see things differently along with carefully chosen supporting evidence.
Temporarily back to Arelith and currently 'Hanna'.
I don't think that notion is that strange once you consider all the pros and cons and how the game directly rewards you for choosing the optimal build.
Does that mean that not optimizing your character is the wrong decision? No. Arelith is also a sandbox and you can do whatever you want within the boundaries of the rules.
However, this is a thread focusing on balance issues and such discussions make sense only when considering the best of the best possible class/race/gear combinations as the probability of breaking the balance with anything less is very low.
In other words, why do you care about issues revolving around mechanical balance when you don't opt for optimization? Any potential changes would most likely not affect you very much anyway.
To elaborate further: a +1 increase in a single stat for a subrace probably won't really make much of a difference for a suboptimal build, but can translate into 10%~ish increase of success (hitting the target, making a save or whatever) for an optimal build that it has been tailored to. That can be quite significant if the other optimal builds seem to be outperforming said subrace by that given margin.
Those RP cookies can have a lot of mechanical power when used properly, and are not always just roleplaying cookies.
The things given to fighter specifically are not just roleplaying cookies, as you call them, but very powerful and unattainable levels of ability, which confer some unique mechanical benefits such as fantastically high AB, AC, and the ability to pierce damage reductions of almost anything on the server with physical attacks from a +3 weapon.
In the context of a discussion like this we aren't talking about what is ultimately the most optimal thing you can possibly play, but rather what is optimal in context. There is an optimal 30 fighter build, and it will be competitive with some other build somewhere, in some fashion, and will play much more comfortably than a suboptimal 30 fighter build in the same situations.
The perks given to pure 30 builds are intended to offset the often crippling mechanical inferiority that going pure 30 gives you. and are intended to incentivise people who want to play that setup exclusively for whatever reason they may settle on. It's something they can roleplay, that fundamentally they are better at some capability that particular class specializes in than any other. Or they can not. These things are, in pretty much every case, a potent mechanical benefit.
The economy of the server's trade incentivises mechanical power, the system on which the game is built incentivises mechanical power, the existence of PVE and PVP as viable means of expressing your character's roleplay incentivise mechanical power. The fact that certain classes or builds are limited from doing certain things with is proof that classes are being designed with an eye towards making sure optimal builds aren't too powerful, because they want you to be free to do that if that's what you want to do.
If you want proof they're encouraging optimal builds, look at how they're buffing and introducing new weapons, and adding craftable weapons of the least powerful types that have incredibly strong enchantments and enhancement levels on them, in order to incentivise people away from what would otherwise be optimal. Shadowdancer cloth armor, special Sais and Kamas. Druid sickles. The uber 2d6 acid scythe of doom death.
You're allowed to not play an optimal build, everyone likely has and will, unless they're Zavandar. Who is the devil. What this thread is proposing is adding some actual mechanical cookies to encourage people who want to be able to walk around Minmir before they reach mid-epics to feel like they can do that. Which half-elves may or may not already be able to do anyway, this is not a real example. Substitute something appropriate.
Much like the cookies that were added to 30 fighter, which do not make 30 fighter better or more self-sufficient in solo play than a 3 level rogue dip on a 27 fighter in any way, shape, or form. They are, however, intensely cool.
For the record, I do not believe for an instant that anyone who is not intensely mechanically savvy can just 'throw together a random build' and go solo Abazzur. There are classes that have advantages in this regard, and classes that do not. You aren't soloing most of the epic bosses on a tribal barbarian with a greataxe without a level of minmaxing, buffing, and game knowledge, and probably some sort of exploit, that I don't believe is possible. I'm sure Zavandar has a build sitting around to prove me wrong, because he is a scary monster human.
Shiki wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:44 am
Those RP cookies can have a lot of mechanical power when used p
If you want proof they're encouraging optimal builds, look at how they're buffing and introducing new weapons, and adding craftable weapons of the least powerful types that have incredibly strong enchantments and enhancement levels on them, in order to incentivise people away from what would otherwise be optimal. Shadowdancer cloth armor, special Sais and Kamas. Druid sickles. The uber 2d6 acid scythe of doom death.
Your proof that they're encouraging optimal builds is that they are "Incentivising people away from what would otherwise be optimal."
I really don't know how I can make it any clearer that the team appears to be going to considerable lengths to provide Arelith with as much variety as possible and undermine there being 'One best optimal build', they go out of their way to provide buffs to bad classes, poor weapons and useless feats to give people a reason to pick up that dagger rather than scimitar on every character.
If a build is completely and totally optimal the team often -undermine- that build [Monk, anyone?] in order to effectively penalise people taking optimal builds!
Temporarily back to Arelith and currently 'Hanna'.
I think you miss my point by ignoring context: They're incentivising people towards things that aren't optimal, as in: instead of just kukris and scimitars and rapiers, period, no question, no discussion.
They do this by making the attempt to bring those things up to the same general level, offering tradeoffs in specialty. Scimitars will do the best damage across the broadest range, greatswords hit like freight trains, longsword moonblades offer a good middle ground, kamas and sais can compensate for low-ish AB a bit and the other perks inherent.
They're incentivising people towards those things that aren't optimal by making them closer to equal with the things that are. Proof that they encourage optimal builds, they're trying to make certain that every choice can compete with what used to be objectively the ONLY choice, so that you actually have a mechanical reason to use a whip, instead of literally unarmed damage as a non-monk.
Unarmed damage as a non-monk is not very good, by the way. Needs buffs. :v
The DEVs make decisions between what is optimal and what is overpowered. Subsequently they moderate the latter so that it doesn't stand out when compared to the former.
Also, the motion to push pure classes has been an attempt to alleviate simple builds closer to the optimal category, so that casual players did not feel pressured to "do their homework" in order to participate.
Ofc. the first impulse of the community after the fighter boons were introduced was not a sudden influx of lvl 30 fighter character, but rather tweaks to the optimal melee builds that were using fighter lvls.
