Anti magic fields

[Drowboy]

I'm sure that PVP in Arelith isn't engaged in this way.
Both party usually know when the fight is going-on or it's against "nice play".
And the 1st thing that i usually do, and in fact, everyone usually do, is to haste ourselves / see invisibility / truesight ( before battle even begins )

If you and I were in a very tense and dire argument and you cast Haste. I would be attacking you instantly. The moment you ward yourself in the midst of some manner of conflict RP, it is deemed a hostile action.

Yep you got it right. Hence, the situation that he describe is unlikely to occur. When a person GS or Haste, you will know there's shit going on. It's a warning to be on guard.

If you are seriously convinced that all pvp happens in a 1v1 white room with two participants who are equally prepared and skilled in what would generally be considered a 'fair' scenario IG, then power level discussions of this sort might not be for you. How do you figure assassins work?

Even then, as barb, you can get up close to someone while arguing, drop this, free action rage, and start the smackdown with complete impunity the mage you're fighting.

[Void]

Honestly, I fail to see the OP aspect of it.

The spell Silence cast upon yourself does the same thing minus the effect to summons.

For example, in PnP antimagic field disables shadowdancer and assassin HIPS. Because those are supernatural abilities.

It doesn't work against rangers though, because their hiding is mundane and they literally jump into the bushes.

I highly doubt antimagic field was implement to this degree here, though.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I agree. Rarity balance is an outdated concept, because it never works.

My concern is that, with a single item, regardless of how rare it is, you can entirely shut down entire classes with no counter play. Which is terrible balance, frustrating for anyone on the receiving end and very reminiscent of the hellball rod / +20 darts / on hit wof ammo etc.

Its powerful in anyone's hands too. A mage casting acid sheathe and then anti magic field can stop breaches? My example was not addressed by anyone it seems. But any high-leveles bite back spell then throwimg this on3 can deter any melee going near you for 10 rounds. And you can stay out of the range of your own summon. I guess 10 rounds is manageable

[Shrouded Wanderer]

If you and I were in a very tense and dire argument and you cast Haste. I would be attacking you instantly. The moment you ward yourself in the midst of some manner of conflict RP, it is deemed a hostile action.

Yep you got it right. Hence, the situation that he describe is unlikely to occur. When a person GS or Haste, you will know there's shit going on. It's a warning to be on guard.

If you are seriously convinced that all pvp happens in a 1v1 white room with two participants who are equally prepared and skilled in what would generally be considered a 'fair' scenario IG, then power level discussions of this sort might not be for you. How do you figure assassins work?

Even then, as barb, you can get up close to someone while arguing, drop this, free action rage, and start the smackdown with complete impunity the mage you're fighting.

To be the devil's advocate here.


You cannot have a discussion on balance without first assuming that the fights are on an even playing field with targets of equal skill.


You cannot account for anything but pure mechanics when speaking about balance simply because a bad pvper is always going to lose to a good pvper.


The only thing you can do is put two characters in a white box with equal skill and see what happens when they fight each other.


If one side is winning 78 times out of 100 in a room with another player of equal skill and experience then there is something offsetting that balance.


Theoretically you hope that a balanced battle will allow each side to win 50 times out of 100. Or to get as close to that as possible.


Now with the current set up there **is** a rock paper scissors set up. IE a monk should win vs wizard, a cleric should win vs a weaponmaster but a weaponmaster should win vs. A monk

And it goes on and on like that as an example

Multiclassing is there to rectify large hard counters, but not to completely demolish that aspect of rock paper scissors.


Therefore: when accounting for balance of an item/spell such as this you must assume two players of equal skill fighting each other in a white box and does this ability when used give a significant enough advantage over the enemy?

I personally do not know. But to say that it is fallacy to consider this theory invalid because "that doesnt happen" is invalid as it doesnt matter if it doesnt happen, what matters is if its an overly significant advantage vs a player or class.

[the grim yeeter]

Universal access that lasts longer than 2 rounds (scroll-silence).
No silent-spell use.
No epic / scroll / item use.
Removal of summon threat.

This.

I agree. Rarity balance is an outdated concept, because it never works.

My concern is that, with a single item, regardless of how rare it is, you can entirely shut down entire classes with no counter play. Which is terrible balance, frustrating for anyone on the receiving end and very reminiscent of the hellball rod / +20 darts / on hit wof ammo etc.

And this.

I think this is an incredibly bad idea and a way too powerful item. "Only" 10 rounds is in fact a very long time, considering the average duration of a PvP instance on Arelith. To say "the counter is just to run away lmao" is a poor argument when it is melee characters that benefit from this the most, and all they need to do to follow that mage is by left-clicking them. And yes, melee characters can reach a caster just fine, guys.

Additionally, classes like warlocks and heavy BGs just instantly lose one of their signature abilities when this item is used (because all summons are melee). No counter whatsoever, other than having to wait for an entire minute.

This seems to be another one of those poorly thought-out updates that nobody asked for and just gets implemented out of the blue. It wasn't necessary, it will significantly change the meta, and the fact that it cannot be countered makes it simply unfun.

Why add an item to which the only counterplay is to run away for 60 seconds? What does it add? Why would that be entertaining?

[Irongron]

Needless to say I totally disagree that we can't have rare, cool items because of 'rarity balancing', but while I don't really want to get into this, based on past experience, let me briefly talk about a few counters. Though of course I'm well aware each point will be individually quoted with a rebuttal.

First, obviously damage shields, buffs, etc. The field doesn't dispell these, and still offer the usual protection. Of course these could first be dispelled; but lead into my next point.

Assuming you are forewarned, or can get outside the field for a moment, you can use any number of spells or abilities that slow or hinder their movement - web, grease, hold, slow, traps, or any number of others. You might need to dispel them first (if they have FoM) but presumably you had that chance at the same time they did.

Then of course there is simply the advantage of having friends, any of them. It is impossible for anyone using this ability to stay in range of two characters at the same time.

Sure, if this was an infinitely deployable spell in an arena setting it would not work, which is exactly why I opted to keep this DnD spell out of spellbooks, and significantly reduced in power.

Rarity doesnt balance anything once it is used, of course, but it does, as in the real world, prevent it being used unnecessarily. I suspect, indeed am certain, we will barely ever see this used in PvP. Saying this fundamentally tips the 'meta' in favour of mundanes strikes me as hyperbolic - casters still hold almost all of the cards.

Sure, if we see the isle being overrun by anti-magic field mundane PvP hounds, then I'll reconsider. For now? I simply consider this a 'hey! I found something cool' moment, that will have zero impact for 99% of players.

I should add that we've also received a number complaints that this spell isnt nearly powerful enough, which to me indicates it is probably in a good place.

[Miaou]

Why add an item to which the only counterplay is to run away for 60 seconds? What does it add? Why would that be entertaining?

I can find quite a few reasons for it to be entertaining and dive story along. Thankfully, PvP is by far not the main aspect of this server, so running around in circles is minor. I would much rather use such an item or items like this to help develop ongoing plots and stories rather than a combat tool.

[Sockss]

This is very confusing. Following this logic.

Melee's can never hit casters.
Completely shutting down 1 person in group pvp for 10 rounds is not a major advantage.

Which, of course, isn't the case.

Post lore/UH change the meta is shotgun, hips and div builds. We have absolutely silly things like Naginata existing, bugged CD on HIPS (it ticks down even if you're stealthing so you can double-dip), removal/increased requirement of anti-hips counters and disproportionate bonuses from div due to the inflation of item power and buffs.

The only reason casters are currently ridiculous is because of the current Beamdog patch ruining dispels (Which unfortunately may be ruined again if they're not fixed to what they were, rather what some people incorrectly thought they were).

AMF is also not just a problem for casters, it leans very heavily into the shotgun mechanics that are being promoted.
It promotes the 1-line pre-meditated PvP that has become increasingly prevalent.
IMO creating even bigger advantages for pulling the PvP trigger first is fundamentally anti-rp.

All this aside, the major problem is that this is even considered fun or interesting gameplay for anyone.

The number of complaints received isn't really indicative of a good place for anything. The overwhelming majority of players have very little concept of mechanics and, frustratingly, it's these players that will ultimately be worse off.

[Shadowy Reality]

It promotes the 1-line pre-meditated PvP that has become increasingly prevalent.
IMO creating even bigger advantages for pulling the PvP trigger first is fundamentally anti-rp.

This is not an argument. The same can be said about a weaponmaster killing the unbuffed mage in two hits. Or the mage casting that disable against an unbuffed fighter. Shotgun PvP was always a thing, it is not new.

You want to shotgun meta to go you need to tune down the numbers, not just selectively remove certain enablers.

The overwhelming majority of players have very little concept of mechanics and, frustratingly, it's these players that will ultimately be worse off.

I disagree. Mechanically oblivious players are the ones least affected. They are more likely going to lose against anyone that knows what is happening already.

This is not breaking anything, as many people have said, you can run for 60 seconds. It is a new toy, to play as you will. Why remove that so the meta can remain stable?

[Sockss]

This is not an argument. The same can be said about a weaponmaster killing the unbuffed mage in two hits. Or the mage casting that disable against an unbuffed fighter. Shotgun PvP was always a thing, it is not new.

An unbuffed mage has various options to break combat. Such as a self-hellball, a scrolled TS.

An unbuffed fighter has saves and, even if they don't, they have pray.

The advantage of acting first is always going to be there. However there's no need to increase that advantage. In fact doing everything you can to decrease it is good. (For example, the time stop change requiring <50% hp for physical damage.)

Shotgun PvP has, for many reasons, been promoted after a marked effort to reduce it.

I disagree. Mechanically oblivious players are the ones least affected. They are more likely going to lose against anyone that knows what is happening already.

Mechanically oblivious players aren't able to take advantage of new things, or use them in the right way. Putting others at more of an advantage than they are at already. As is very obvious from this:

as many people have said, you can run for 60 seconds.

[Jagel]

Let it play out for a while and revisit with in game experience to back up the various concerns?

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Personally I do find it odd that the field doesnt reduce anyones stats in it to their baseline stats per the PHB but thats just me.

It wouls be a good balancing point for the field to eliminate magical weapons increased AB as well as zoo buffs while in the area of effect.

[chris a gogo]

How about stop worrying about what if's and if it does get abused trust the team to sort it out.

[Kuma]

How about stop worrying about what if's and if it does get abused trust the team to sort it out.

because with numerous historical precedents this 'sorting things out' either doesn't happen, or if it does, goes so far the other way as to render something useless or too overpowered. this isn't rudeness or disrespect, just trends.

[Hazard]

Personally I do find it odd that the field doesnt reduce anyones stats in it to their baseline stats per the PHB but thats just me.

It wouls be a good balancing point for the field to eliminate magical weapons increased AB as well as zoo buffs while in the area of effect.

It would effectively remove spells from casters even after the field ends/they leave the field.
.. And that would be big butt aches for casters!

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Yeah true.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Needless to say I totally disagree that we can't have rare, cool items because of 'rarity balancing', but while I don't really want to get into this, based on past experience, let me briefly talk about a few counters. Though of course I'm well aware each point will be individually quoted with a rebuttal.

First, obviously damage shields, buffs, etc. The field doesn't dispell these, and still offer the usual protection. Of course these could first be dispelled; but lead into my next point.

Assuming you are forewarned, or can get outside the field for a moment, you can use any number of spells or abilities that slow or hinder their movement - web, grease, hold, slow, traps, or any number of others. You might need to dispel them first (if they have FoM) but presumably you had that chance at the same time they did.

Then of course there is simply the advantage of having friends, any of them. It is impossible for anyone using this ability to stay in range of two characters at the same time.

Sure, if this was an infinitely deployable spell in an arena setting it would not work, which is exactly why I opted to keep this DnD spell out of spellbooks, and significantly reduced in power.

Rarity doesnt balance anything once it is used, of course, but it does, as in the real world, prevent it being used unnecessarily. I suspect, indeed am certain, we will barely ever see this used in PvP. Saying this fundamentally tips the 'meta' in favour of mundanes strikes me as hyperbolic - casters still hold almost all of the cards.

Sure, if we see the isle being overrun by anti-magic field mundane PvP hounds, then I'll reconsider. For now? I simply consider this a 'hey! I found something cool' moment, that will have zero impact for 99% of players.

I should add that we've also received a number complaints that this spell isnt nearly powerful enough, which to me indicates it is probably in a good place.

So, most of these posts do not address my main concerns. I don't want to be adding masdive stress, just clarification on how the mechanics play out and implications for a caster using it.

If it stop oneself from being a target of spells, can a mage have all his buffs up and then put this on him to stop himself from being breached? This tool might be more useful in the hands of spellswords than mundanes. Rarity loot philosophies being a whole other discussion.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Personally I do find it odd that the field doesnt reduce anyones stats in it to their baseline stats per the PHB but thats just me.

It wouls be a good balancing point for the field to eliminate magical weapons increased AB as well as zoo buffs while in the area of effect.

It would effectively remove spells from casters even after the field ends/they leave the field.
.. And that would be big butt aches for casters!

a true anti magic field merely suppresses all magic, not dispel it. So buffs (spells and items) go back up when you leave the field. Something I am not sure is even possible to script in NWN.

[ActionReplay]

If it stop oneself from being a target of spells, can a mage have all his buffs up and then put this on him to stop himself from being breached? This tool might be more useful in the hands of spellswords than mundanes. Rarity loot philosophies being a whole other discussion.

Spells cast outside the AoE will affect you normally, you're not protected from that. With AMF up you can get breached still.

Personally I do find it odd that the field doesnt reduce anyones stats in it to their baseline stats per the PHB but thats just me.

It wouls be a good balancing point for the field to eliminate magical weapons increased AB as well as zoo buffs while in the area of effect.

It would effectively remove spells from casters even after the field ends/they leave the field.
.. And that would be big butt aches for casters!

a true anti magic field merely suppresses all magic, not dispel it. So buffs (spells and items) go back up when you leave the field. Something I am not sure is even possible to script in NWN.

Its possible, I opted not to add that in.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

If it stop oneself from being a target of spells, can a mage have all his buffs up and then put this on him to stop himself from being breached? This tool might be more useful in the hands of spellswords than mundanes. Rarity loot philosophies being a whole other discussion.

Spells cast outside the AoE will affect you normally, you're not protected from that. With AMF up you can get breached still.

It would effectively remove spells from casters even after the field ends/they leave the field.
.. And that would be big butt aches for casters!

a true anti magic field merely suppresses all magic, not dispel it. So buffs (spells and items) go back up when you leave the field. Something I am not sure is even possible to script in NWN.

Its possible, I opted not to add that in.

Thankyou for the clarification, so its just a more advance, yet more limited use, of silence. That removes a lot of red flags for me. I mean i could still use it and then stay on you as a spellsword staying close range with haste.

Is this true for weave eaters too. Can i nuke them with spells if they are not up close?

[the grim yeeter]

What would actually be cool if the AMF field was a static AoE that you could target anywhere, so as to enable more tactical play (i.e., chokepoints) and for people (especially those relying heavily on magic) to thoroughly consider their (relative) position based on their direct environment prior to PvP (i.e., avoiding cornered situations).

The most important ways in which this would differ from the way it currently works, is that it requires the character using the AMF item to really think through when and where to place this field instead of just simply using it on themselves and making a dart for their target. However, it will still grant the user some degree of control over the situation as they will be able to determine the likelihood of which path their target is going to take in combat. The user can even, through clever chasing and/or teamwork, force their target into the field. Additionally, on the other hand, it still allows for some counterplay by whomever it is used against, as they can still reliably avoid the field, but possibly at a cost (if the field was placed strategically enough).

For these reasons, I believe an AMF as a static AoE would be much more fun than something that just follows you or your ally around (and basically just functions like a, in many ways, significantly more powerful, uncounterable silence spell). It would be much less of a cheese move.

a true anti magic field merely suppresses all magic, not dispel it. So buffs (spells and items) go back up when you leave the field. Something I am not sure is even possible to script in NWN.

Its possible, I opted not to add that in.

Why not, I wonder? I think that would be very awesome, in fact.

[Sockss]

Having it fixed in a position and ensuring it was very short/self range cast would be great.

(Would be neat if it worked like that even for Weave Eaters as well, so solo-casters weren't completely shuffled out of wherever Weave Eaters spawned.)

[Eters]

Having seen it on a weave eater before. The range is not big enough to make it a real threat.

Mages don't get "shuffled out" from fighting weave eaters. They just need to stand 10 ft away from one. And guess what? 99% of mages keep the hell away from weave eaters, AMF or not.


In PvP, a cleric can Gsanc and wait it out. A mage can do that or just timestop (an actual spell with no counters) and reposition. An abjurer can use -ward and breach your FoM if you have it and force you to waste time reapplying it so that you do not get paralysed by the circle while trying to reach them, etc etc.... The fact that spells can hurt you from outside it makes it very much counterplayable. Movement is important in PvP and how you move often determines the outcome of a battle.

With lack of mords on mundanes, ability to use high end scrolls by most. The AMF is a somewhat good tool. It being static would make it completely worthless. Because "Oh woe me. 10 ft of this half a kilometer map is unusable, I am completely in a pinch." Is not really something that anyone would ever say, (considering the new updates and facelifting arelith is going through, maps are huge now.) except if say, the fight is on very close quarters. And even without the AMF. Mages fighting in close quarters are already in a disadvantaged position so it won't change much. A counterplay to a static AMF is to transition, simple as that.

Right now the AMF has a very visible vfx. You can see it from a mile away. No one is going to be surprised or caught offguard by it unless in very very rare situations. I think it is fine as it is. There is far more powerful things out there that truly bend the balance all over the place and no one is complaining about.

Its rarity would also mean that it will only appear in one of like ... 30 fights or more.

[Sockss]

Having seen it on a weave eater before. The range is not big enough to make it a real threat.

Mages don't get "shuffled out" from fighting weave eaters. They just need to stand 10 ft away from one. And guess what? 99% of mages keep the hell away from weave eaters, AMF or not.

Summons are usually the way a caster would fight them, the same as everything a caster would in PvE.

In PvP, a cleric can Gsanc and wait it out. A mage can do that or just timestop (an actual spell with no counters) and reposition. An abjurer can use -ward and breach your FoM if you have it and force you to waste time reapplying it so that you do not get paralysed by the circle while trying to reach them, etc etc.... The fact that spells can hurt you from outside it makes it very much counterplayable. Movement is important in PvP and how you move often determines the outcome of a battle.

With lack of mords on mundanes, ability to use high end scrolls by most. The AMF is a somewhat good tool. It being static would make it completely worthless. Because "Oh woe me. 10 ft of this half a kilometer map is unusable, I am completely in a pinch." Is not really something that anyone would ever say, (considering the new updates and facelifting arelith is going through, maps are huge now.) except if say, the fight is on very close quarters. And even without the AMF. Mages fighting in close quarters are already in a disadvantaged position so it won't change much. A counterplay to a static AMF is to transition, simple as that.

Right now the AMF has a very visible vfx. You can see it from a mile away. No one is going to be surprised or caught offguard by it unless in very very rare situations. I think it is fine as it is. There is far more powerful things out there that truly bend the balance all over the place and no one is complaining about.

Its rarity would also mean that it will only appear in one of like ... 30 fights or more.

Okay, following the assumption the mechanically inept continue to make that it's entirely counter-playable and ineffective (Which it absolutely isn't either of these things, but that aside). Why add it at all to promote a minute of inaction?

Do you also believe that people are going to be using AMF at > 10 foot distance while at a speed disadvantage?

(I don't think you should be promoting transitioning to gain a combat advantage.)

[the grim yeeter]

Right now the AMF has a very visible vfx. You can see it from a mile away. No one is going to be surprised or caught offguard by it unless in very very rare situations. [...]

If you decide to activate it on yourself while a mile away from your target before running towards your them, then yeah. Then again, you would be absolutely stupid to do such.

[...] I think it is fine as it is. There is far more powerful things out there that truly bend the balance all over the place and no one is complaining about.

Can people please stop the pointless argument of "there are so many more other things that are OP too"? That's not what is being discussed right now. And by discussing this, we aren't saying there isn't anything else that needs to be looked at.

[...] Because "Oh woe me. 10 ft of this half a kilometer map is unusable, I am completely in a pinch." Is not really something that anyone would ever say, (considering the new updates and facelifting arelith is going through, maps are huge now.) except if say, the fight is on very close quarters. And even without the AMF. Mages fighting in close quarters are already in a disadvantaged position so it won't change much. A counterplay to a static AMF is to transition, simple as that.

Besides, if the worry is that the current radius would be too small for a static version of AMF to be effective, then its increase could simply be discussed. And yeah, let's not encourage transitioning during PvP, now.