Favored Soul Feedback

[Drowboy]

feedback soul

Being on the sorc spell level progression is kind of rough, especially with not getting domains. Understandable if that's tied to the switch for spontaneous casting, though.

The number of spells you can choose per level is surprisingly restrictive on a cleric spellcasting chassis. An FS' 3 level six spells are almost certainly going to go to gsanc, heal, and harm, locking them out of dispels entirely (ignoring scrolls etc). Upping some of their later stuff to a select of 4 might help, or giving them access to an up-leveled but roughly identical dispel to select.

The FS spell list, being cleric minus domain, could use some QOL looking like Shaman got. Breaches, invis, see invis, maybe normal stone skin. Without DS or domain options, they might end up slightly squishy/clearly inferior to the cleric brothers and shaman cousins.

Grabbing death/healing domain on a cleric dip does a lot to boost FS viability, but I almost feel like it should be part of the class identity without having to take cleric.

To put that together: I doubt the first two points can be altered, but the third almost certainly can, right? More spell choices (and additional slots if at all possible) to make up for the huge loss of customize-ability that domains represented, and a couple defensive tools since they can't get the obvious ones.

As for domains, maybe work them into the class identity thusly: You get a 'domain' determined by your god's major aspect.
War & Destruction: empowered harms
Hearth & Home: Empowered Heals
Trickery & Deceit: (small) passive trickery domain
Knowledge & Invention: (small?) passive... idk, detection bonus?
Nature: Summon boost of some sort?
Magic: Drawing an ol blank for this one.

This would probably necessitate some sort of 'challenge' for swapping your patron, however, so you don't get people trading between gods based on party role for the day.

Edit: having some time to think on it, it would be nice if they had access to bluff, intimidate, etc, since they're cha-base anyway.

[Skytower]

As for domains, maybe work them into the class identity thusly: You get a 'domain' determined by your god's major aspect.
War & Destruction: empowered harms
Hearth & Home: Empowered Heals
Trickery & Deceit: (small) passive trickery domain
Knowledge & Invention: (small?) passive... idk, detection bonus?
Nature: Summon boost of some sort?
Magic: Drawing an ol blank for this one.

If domains are added for Favored Souls, while it might be a lot of work, I'd say having the domains selected for you based on your primary deity's domains would fit thematically with being a Favoured Soul as they're an agent chosen by that God and have an innate connection to them. It would add more variety to the spells available.

Example: A Favored Soul of Tyr gets to select from the domains: Good, Knowledge, Law, Retribution, War. While one of Helm receives a choice of Law, Planning, Protection, Strength.

Since not all the domains are actually in the game the selections available would need to be customised, and though while domain selection isn't enforced it's still recommended to be selected appropriately in order to fit the character.

[Drowboy]

Don't know if I'd give them outright domains, but simple domain emulation as above might do the trick.

Other notes: Everything works as well as it does on a cleric, which is to say it's a cleric. The defensive stuff is nice to have but negligible, and we come to the problem of mechanical niche. The roleplay niche is fantastic, obviously, or this class wouldn't have had two passes on the server now. The mechanical niche is more of an issue, namely, where does it stand that a cleric can't?

Well, having 7 harms and WOFs a rest, mostly. As an offensive, cha-based caster, it pales to the sorcerer (who also has premo, access to divine shield/heavy armor via auto still 1 and greensteel if you so choose, 50% concealment access, and EMA), because the cleric spell list has a real problem finishing people off without resorting to evo combo+harms. High DC implosions and storm of vengeance are (relatively) easy to build around, and NEP is easy to get as mentioned with the swashbuckler. High numbers of harms and WOFs are a saving grace, but as mentioned two posts up, to get the most out of harm you need cleric levels, defeating both the RP and mechanical purpose. And, frankly, other than that handful of spells, cleric doesn't have much going for it for offensive spells.

Support caster? See above with regard to sorc and slot bard in there since we're judging off of CHA class and cleric. As support, it faces the same defensive problems, compounded with the fact that healer cleric does support so good and nasty. (and, of course, you need a cleric dip with healing domain to get the most out of your heals, see 'defeated purpose' above.)

It feels a little adrift, and without domains (or its own spell list) it's probably going to remain so.

It's really important for me to double down on the idea that they need some additional spells added to their list (domain spells and maybe something off the bard or sorc list like how shamans get breaches) or even a couple favored soul only spells, to give them both a unique mechanical niche or just to make them stand further apart from cleric. If something has to 'go' to make that happen, maybe chop the elemental defenses.

[Opustus]

Not trying to argue or anything, just pointing out that you can dip into Cleric for domains. E.g. animal domain still acts like GSF:Conj, Healing and Death domain empower respective spells, although it uses the CL of the spellbook i.e. FS27/Cleric3 would do 10*27*1.5 Harm damage when cast from FS spellbook and 10*3*1.5 when cast from Cleric spellbook.

[Drowboy]

It's in the posts above. It drops your CL by 3 and kind of defeats the purpose of the not-a-trained-cleric RP.

[Opustus]

It's in the posts above. It drops your CL by 3 and kind of defeats the purpose of the not-a-trained-cleric RP.

Oh duh, just skimmed the post. Sorry! I'll leave you to it.

[Baron Saturday]

Might be interesting to give them infinite casts of some spells via GSF, similar to the wizard perk.

[Skytower]

Perhaps to help add some mechanical support to the RP aspect for displaying a strong divine connection, and Deity's favor, could be to add some minor bonus tied to their Piety level? An extra +1 to attack and save rolls when Piety is high enough maybe, or something like that?
It doesn't help with the spell variety issue, but Piety based bonus offers a fresh or unique (as far as I know) little aspect to the class to help separate it from other clerics.

[Drowboy]

Is tweaking the spells per day doable? I know spontaneous has its ups and downs, but in repeating the 27/3 str bcleric setup in the build guides (If there's a better yardstick for generic 'cleric ability' get at me) it gets, from 1 up, these spells per day:

7 7 7 7 6 5 5 5 5

Or: one more spell per day of 1-4th level than a standard cleric gets, bioware base. Yes, they're spontaneous, but it has much worse spell availability than the standard cleric, who can just load those slots with the same stuff anyway. Admittedly, there's no FS gear yet, and I geared str/con for efficiency's sake. Adding runes/gearing more thoughtfully will eke out a few more spell slots, but the same could be said of cleric.

Edit: FS 27/Bard 3 Battlecleric emulation is what you'd expect. It's a battlecleric without access to trickery, war, plant, etc. Inherent haste and barkskin/shadow shield consumeables will handle the gaps, of course, but it's exactly what it says on the tin: A less effective battlecleric. This is another place where spell list tweaks could help. As an odd note, the CL of the haste probably needs a look. It's getting shredded off by basically everything.

But having tested caster, cleric-dip caster, and a 'standard' bcleric setup, I think my summary is that it's cleric with a way lower power ceiling- note, due to a lack of versatility/customize-ability, mostly. If this is fully intentional, that's fine, but if it's not, they really need some extra bells to differentiate them from normal clerics.

[Rosewood Revel]

I don't think that FS needs domains or their abilities. They didn't get them in tabletop, they don't need them here either. it's true cleric gets extra bones with them however. That being said,

I do think that the number of spells known needs to resemble its tabletop variant. Which was 6 spells known up till 7th level spells. 5 8th level spells, and 4 9th level spells. They had the same number of casts at level 20 as a sorcerer. The reason being that the divine casters don't have direct offensive options outside of a handful of spells. The biggest one being harm. The other being SOV or implosion. Which you will likely only want one of since they're different spell schools and both DC based spells in order to maximize their effectiveness. They just need more options.

To that end, I 'do' actually think taking the domain spells that clerics 'can' get, and adding them to the spell book of favored soul to be selected from the pool. This does tie in with my spells known, and would help create a very diverse list of spells that I feel like would be a hot topic, and make divine variants of certain spells become more readily available. It also wouldn't require much more than adding it to the spell book vs messing about with NWNx. That being said, if you can just pick haste as a spell, I have no inkling of what you would do to replace the ability. It comes so late as well as a perk of being a FS.

I'm not a master of balance, but, I think this is a step in making favored soul a viable alternative to cleric. It gives it some bite, and some utility not available to a normal cleric while giving it the ability to actually have the spells it needs to do its job. As of right now, without more spells added I don't feel like offensive style clerics are truly viable, and the spells they need are more wider and varied than the arcane spells. As it stands right now, from a mechanics standpoint. Because I 'really' love favored souls. I'd never pick them over a cleric due to a cleric being able to do anything a FS can do significantly better. Despite my love of the theme of being a chosen of a god.

[Complex]

I think that this class' current issue is that it doesn't have a very clear role to fill. Of all casters, why would you pick this one unless you were desperate to RP it? Lacking domains, Divine Shield, not being able to go Healer and being locked out of so many spells is a bit of a big hit that puts Favored Soul in an awkard position.

You want to be a good Caster Cleric? Go regular Cleric, pick Healer path, choose between WIS-based or CHA-based and choose a dip if you need to (Bard/Monk/Harper Priest-> Harps of Haunting/UMD/Skills, WIS AC/Movespeed, All The Harper Toys And Boons And Joys).

You want to be a good Spontaneous Caster? Here we have your Sorc/BG or Sorc/Pally with EMA, Divine Shield on demand, evo combo and the ability to dispel (not that Clerics are the Abjuration Masters but a Favored Soul can't even afford to take a Dispel unless they are willing to sacrifice something that is probably big).

You want toys? You want ESFs? You want to enjoy yourself? Go wizard, get all the skill-points you want, all the spells you want, be able to pull off Evo combos, dispel people, be free, be happy.

In conclusion, Favored Soul ends up being a budget Cleric that can do spontaneous casting but doesn't get any toys or extra abilities that actually make all of the sacrifices worth it. They end up missing HUGE Cleric spells while still being subject to the class' innate lack of kill pressure unless you get lucky with saves and are locked out of the few things that could make them worth it (a sort of Sorcerer counterpart that may not be focused on bursting but on supporting while still being able to pump some damage).

[garrbear758]

I appreciate the feedback. Currently, favored soul uses the same spellbook as cleric. I am going to make it a custom spellbook and add some of the domain spells (but not all of them) as options to be selected. Additionally, I will also increase the spells known by a bit.

Everything is subject to change, and these three classes will likely sit on pgcc for a good amount longer than swashbuckler prior to official release. Please keep the feedback coming! It is extremely helpful.

[Drowboy]

Ay! All of that is good news. Really cool to have the dev process like, unobfuscated. Thanks for doing this.

[Rosewood Revel]

I'm really curious as to the haste/day ability. I somewhat feel like, perhaps it might be better as a spell and they get something else? I can't really be sure, but, with a wider spell selection it's good. But, one of the main thematics that made FS truly sort of unique is that they gained celestial or devilish/demonic features depending on alignment in the same slot.

Now, I realize that originally it was wings and we don't want everyone running around with wings... and there's no benefit that they give in NWN. I don't know, I'm glad you're getting good feedback. Just about everyone is putting something in that's interested in putting something in. It just feels like FS is close, but not quite right.

I don't remember if I said it in my last post. But it doesn't 'need' to be 'better' than cleric. That's not the point of Shaman. It's not the point of swashbuckler. It's different. Favored souls don't actually get turn undead in Tabletop. So, it makes sense they don't get divine might/shield as they're ineligible for it without multi-classing by default to me.

I'd rather have haste as a spell, but I just don't know what would replace that ability. FS got damage reduction at level 20 in TT based on their alignment. I'm not brave enough to suggest wild new things, someone brought up diety's favored weapon proficiency/focus and the diety's favored weapon specialization. But FS also got +2 skill points over what they would normally get, and heavy armor proficiency when they previously wouldn't. I'd like to suggest something in its stead, but in the nature of it being balanced I don't know what that is.

[Dr. B]

I'm not sure why the OP is saying that they're more "squishy" than clerics. Your typical battlecleric does not take Divine Might or Shield, as that requires extreme sacrifices in your feats and ability statting. Given their damage resistance feats, a favored soul is actually hardier than a strength battlecleric; it otherwise achieves the same numbers in terms of offense, defense, and HP.

They are absolutely not more fragile than shamans, who are leagues behind them defensively right now.

So, it makes sense they don't get divine might/shield as they're ineligible for it without multi-classing by default to me.

It's worth pointing out that Favored Souls can't pick up DM/DS at all, even if they do multiclass. This is for balance reasons (they would render battleclerics obsolete and basically push the limits of the melee meta even further), and I think it's for the best.

[Rosewood Revel]

Oh no, I already know that. I'm just saying it makes sense they DON'T get it regardless is all, as a clarification. I agree with you. Divine might/shield aren't necessarily balanced feats to begin with for what they give. But that's a hot opinion for another time.

[Dr. B]

Right, I assumed as much. I just wanted to make sure other readers knew that you can't get it through multiclassing.

[Rosewood Revel]

I do somewhat think that maybe not having haste as a SLA is a good idea. when it's just as easy to have it in their normal spellbook (once Garr gets the custom one made). Giving them 'something' else instead.

[Drowboy]

Could steal leap of faith from DDO instead. Give them a bonus to [acrobatics type checks] and a movespeed bonus, briefly, or something, on a cooldown, and swap haste into their spellbook.

However having it as an SLA is nice because it doesn't interfere with spells known.

[garrbear758]

I think having the ability to cast haste around 16 times with just normal and extend spell on basically a battlecleric is a bad idea. That is part of why we made it a SLA. Also, in PNP it gets wings as someone else mentioned. NWN2 used the SLA as a replacement for that for their version of favored soul, so we took the inspiration from there.

[Rosewood Revel]

Ah, I forgot about the nwn2 ability. Though, that being said. Battletide is on the same spell tier. Battletide is such a great spell, and, depending on what you and the team decides to make available, there may be other level 5 spells that clerics normally don't choose that go on that list.

Raise dead, Spell resistance, monstrous regen, and healing circle are also big contenders. Level 5 is a very important spell level for divine casters. Normally it'd be haste and Imp invis for a proper Bcleric as well. Dividing casts even further.

That being said, if they were able to expend ALL of their casts on the haste. then that might be a bit much. On level 6 we have the planar ally spell, Gsanc, summon creature, banishment, and greater dispelling. Along with create and control undead for the more evil inclined folk. Some very important spells that I'm not sure I'd blow all the castings on for. There's a lot more management of your casts since if someone dies but you've used all your level 5s on haste you have to rest. Or you're stuck in a situation without Gsanc, though, I think you can extend it?

16 does feel like the maximum number. and looking at it that way seems like a 'lot'. But, I also think doing that seems like blowing your potential when you have other spells to take advantage of.

I 'do' see what you mean. I just think in practical game-play I don't think they'll get all of those casts off when they need these other spells (I would totally spam Battletide however, which I normally as a Bcleric only get a few casts on) That being said, Drowguy also has a point. It does give them an ability that doesn't interfere with spells known. But a movement speed buff would be interesting. Honestly i'm more in favor of any sort of ability being on a cooldown instead of per day. I just think cooldowns are more fun.

[strong yeet]

My thoughts on favoured souls are more narrative than mechanical.

It's a lot of responsibility to be a favoured soul and to treat that fact with the proper gravity. I think that this class should get maybe a little extra scrutiny from on high to make certain people are not being weird or "bad" with it.

Speaking as someone who remembers old favoured souls, they were never particularly relevant mechanically so there weren't too many, but even so a few of them were the kind of character you'd rather scrunch your nose at.

[Imperatrix]

My initial thoughts are that due to the way clerics domain slots work on NWN (they're not limited in how they use them) there won't be a significant difference between cleric spells per day and favoured soul spells per day (assuming they're using the same progression as sorcerer.) This would make their only advantage for a limited spell list simply not having to prepare spells.

An idea for making them a little more unique might be giving them the free addition of the Planar Binding Spells and Gate to their spellbooks in addition to their normally chosen spells (clerics normally only have access to Planar Ally and Gate) to represent an ability to call upon the servants of whichever deity has shown them favour.

Also, gaining feats for their deities favoured weapon for free as in PnP isn't really achievable given how easy it is to switch deities on Arelith, but an alternative could be giving them a couple of bonus pre-epic feats with weapon focus/spec on the list.

[Draco]

I think Favored Soul needs more in the way of class available skills. They get 4 + Int and they have little to nothing to put them in. Since they are like Sorcerers in a sense of not having to dedicate themselves to their craft, can they get more social related skills? They are Cha based, so give them bluff and intimidate.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Am I reading it right - does FS get high progression for Fort, Ref AND Will?