Just Andunor.

[Anomandaris]

The perception of Andunor being 'broken' is a poor take on it to begin with.
Everyone seems to be seeking mechanical fixes, additional cities, which I cannot say will or won't come.

I will simply monitor the thread as I do with them all. I'm only disappointed.

FWIW Andunor has been mostly what has kept me engaged on this server for years and is full with countless positive memories and experiences for me! I’ve bounced around but always find my way back in one form or another. It’s not all negativity

[xanrael]

Honestly I'd like the Trading Post to receive a bit of an expansion with a few more PC shops, NPC merchants, maybe a small bank vault location, and a writ giver (either UD only or everyone). Where an early to mid teens PC or above could base themselves out of but probably would rather not.

Not an exact match, but sort of the UD equivalent of the Crow's Nest.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

My apologies if my own posts come across as condescending or patronizing. No offence intended nor any taken.

It's just that I have this deja-vu feeling about the discussion. I am a long-time player and dimly have a recollection of the Baronial Age. It strikes me as the pangs Andunorian players are feeling now are similar in complexity and nature to the pains of the Age back then.

Cordor was much smaller. Multiple factions held sway. The Cordor Guard, if memory serves, was an emerging central pillar that through force of will and sheer bloody-mindedness helped to win the peace. Despite this, the Baronies were repeatedly at each others throats in an ongoing cycle.

I'm trying to remember what broke the cycle and did away with the Baronies. Their might be a parallel you see.

(I think player actions forced out the corruption and centralized power -- and only then when players had won the peace -- was Cordor in a position to be rebuilt)?

Or maybe I'm mis-remembering. In any event, the point being I am pretty sure it was player effort and Dev's together.

[dallion43]

For starters;
I don't think there any major problems in current Arelith(Andur) that require immediate heavy boat shaking.
Below is not a complain, issue or any of that. I played both Surface and Andur and both have their charm.
It is just a long term consideration possibility.


What could help Andur is ~three *temple of the triad* style NPC/PC guilds with out of Andur(relatively far) self-sufficient headquarters. (All basic merchants, maybe underdark writ npc, possible restricted guild portal).
Building in Andur acting as an *outpost*.
PC main representative, with NPC final rule. Exclusion based on majority vote.
High Nosed Drow Queens, Dogs of Under, Your Average Joes,(ex) that historically isn't on best terms and compete for Andur best.

While, everything will still happen in hub, now one can retreat *home* that doesn't feel totally deserted and wait out the storm in case of X and not shelf the PC.
This is relatively less investment time vise then separate cities, and will hopefully allow Underdark to grow out of what it is today.

When there is a constant mechanical base, RP will follow. Otherwise to get similar to above one needs Very good charismatic experienced leaders with Time and Will and good timing. And the second they vanish, everything vanishes. Constant mechanical base will keep their efforts with relative ease and more.
While things like above can be viewed as, DMs resolve out IC incapability for us!, I assure you it is not the intent of no one in this topic even if it looks like it is.
I did see similar solutions work on shards I played earlier.


P.C
1. There is nothing wrong with Surfarcer/Underdarker. It brings diversity, mechanical reasons for conflict and more. Even IC reasons are valid, imho. Except current Surface and Underdark aren't exactly equal in certain areas.
2. Yes I do sometimes feel a little like a carebear hugbox almost on every char I play in Underdark. Yes, it is still better then most of the Surface muzi-puzi. Yes, I lack RPR and the above is mostly my fault :p.

[NauVaseline]

If you want to fix the Underdark populations

Give them their gift(s) back

Slather some honey on it if you want bee's to come

[Wuthering]

I like one large city with diverse districts. Makes it feel like NYC or LA where you cross a neighborhood line and you're somewhere else entirely with a different culture and rules (shades of The Warriors.) It's exciting and cosmopolitan and a lot better for political intrigue. With little towns like Bendir and Guilderand you're inviting stagnation, they typically have leaders in place for RL years. Maybe that's what people want in those areas, but that's way too quaint for the Underdark.

[DM Rex]

If you want to fix the Underdark populations

Give them their gift(s) back

Slather some honey on it if you want bee's to come

I have to ask everyone here a basic question. How is more mechanics going to help improve a community's roleplay?
How is more shops, more quarters going to improve the atmosphere really?

Discussions of mechanics and races often drifts dreadfully familiarly into 'everything should be on par with humans'. Which has also been discussed to a fault. If everything is the same mechanically, and this is your sole justification for taking a certain race, you're in it for the wrong reasons right from the start.

Everyone's idea for 'solutions' is just more territory to claim as if that's somehow a substitute for good characters. Greyport was a new expansion, and still proves to be a new tipping point in what was previously a two party system for appearance sake.

[NauVaseline]

I have to ask everyone here a basic question. How is more mechanics going to help improve a community's roleplay?

Aside from creating incentives to play or not play a character or concept, mechanics shape and define the limits of what your roleplay will be able to accomplish. They directly impact your agency.

Not just Drow, but every race with 'forced' bonus stats/no gifts is essentially heavily incentivized to take only a few classes specific to those bonuses.

Customizability of Character Sheet = Variety of Character Concept

[Maladus]

I've had a lot of time to think about this today, and I had this thought. One thing that resonated with me from the OP was the statement about how most of the RP in Andunor takes place in one room. The other districts in Andunor consist mostly of shops or quarters with a few places that scattered public RP takes place in. I'm talking about Lolth's Temple, the Sharps Temple, both District Houses, the Library, the Arcanum and the Arena (there are probably more spaces but these are the ones I came up with quickly off the top of my head).

What if each of the districts were given some "hub" space where natural RP can take place. The Hub is meant to be a mutual space and there is even the big meeting area where emissaries from Claddeth and Freth can come together to discuss terms for cease fire in the case of some fighting between the districts. Perhaps the inclusion of these spaces would encourage the districts to operate more in line with what they were intended for while the Hub would be the space where all the districts come together for mutual RP.

[let it trip]

What would people say to Andunor being the trade post (except much bigger than) just like Jhared's trade post, with a new Drow city?

[xanrael]

How is more shops, more quarters going to improve the atmosphere really?

Specifically why I was mentioning this for the Trade Post along with the other amenities was the idea of having a place you could operate outside of Andunor as a UD character.

If I'm in a conflict with someone in Cordor and my actions make them not welcome there, they can live elsewhere and plot revenge or just start a new chapter of their life.

In Andunor that's not really a possibility. I might be worried about taking things too far and end up with a "hugbox", or perhaps I'm glad to take it that far because I can kick their butt whenever I want and they're in a pseudo-perma death state for their RP.

[Kuma]

What would people say to Andunor being the trade post (except much bigger than) just like Jhared's trade post, with a new Drow city?

ah, undo years of improvement, great

Please no. Splitting the Underdark back up into racially segregated ghettos is a horrendous idea. It may, though, be about time for other settlements or "places to be" hubs to be opened up and fought over. If it gets taken by drow for a time? Cool. It could also be nabbed by others. But honestly I feel like you'd lose a third of Andunor's population overnight if you just make Udos Mk 2, which the Table already effectively is in gated community form, they just are also forced to interact with the world at large.

An expansion of the Ogre Fist or similar might be cool, or just some other morally dubious area with no strict racial ownership. Just some more spaces to be and play in. However, this is made problematic by the centralised nature of the Underdark (which was a solution to earlier problems). The surface has spaces to travel and find people, but everywhere outside of Andunor is a writ area, not a road or an RP venue. I'm not sure how to fix that, or if it should be, but it's a very big part of what differentiates the surface from the UD, generally. I do think that adding yet another district to Andunor, as has been hinted, may be a very bad idea, though, for reasons outlined in this thread.

But the UD also has a lot less players. Too large a canvas with too thin a paint is just going to cause the old rot to seep in.

From my perspective, the UD's just on a quiet downswing, activity wise. Just needs kicked into gear for a bit by some players with big dumb ideas. Sure, it settles back into "stagnant stability" after a while, but, uh, so does everywhere else in the server honestly. This isn't unique to Andunor.

[Royal Blood]

Thought about this one a lot and have been playing in the UD for like 1 year + now.

I really do not think a completely new settlement will cause any great increase in RP availability. To me what often seems the argument is that we ought to just increase the number of places/settlements until everyone can carve out their personal niche of power that fit's their RP style. If there was another city in the UD I think a severe divide would happen and likely cause the same sides to be perpetually at war. And if not, then the 'old' powers that facilitate the status quo of the UD would gain control to keep it from becoming a thorn in their side that was harboring refugees that stirred up enough fuss in Andunor that they were cast out of all districts.

There are a ton of places for 'outcasts' of Andunor to go to or forge alternative alliances with in my opinion that take them beyond Andunor. And I've always found the powers that be within Andunor to be very open to negotiation and very mindful OOC of trying -not- to choke someone out of the city if they can help it. And also, offer avenues to return to the city and end a quarrel.

I agree that there are some stagnation issues within Andunor sometimes but those are more so caused by player mentalities rather than the make up of the module design in the UD in my opinion. This stagnation isn't unique to the UD though.

If Devs did anything I think creating more mechanical ways for players to engage in conflict RP beyond elections and PVP would be useful. I suggested awhile ago like settlements that have trade agreements ought to have like caravans that need to be escorted etc and could be attacked resulting in a loss of resources or something to that effect. This could be a whole PVE scenario and avoid direct PVP all together. Maybe you can upgrade your caravan escorts with more resources from your settlement or something idk.

I feel like the settlement system in general could use some -huge- additions to revamp it to make it easier to use as a settlement leader and also offer many many more ways to engage with the system and involve players in deeper RP.

TLDR: I think Andunor is unique. I even like the council system in the Devil's table. I prefer 'compact' if you will module design that encourages interaction. The UD certainly does that. I wouldn't change the UD or Andunor at the moment but other elements of the module could perhaps be improved to help facilitate RP.

Also, I think that one big issue with change in Arelith is that the moment something significant happens it -always- comes with tremendous OOC baggage. Nobody wants to deal with that. So why even try.

[Quidix]

What about something simple:

• Remove the hub portal
• Add a portal to each district

I suspect that will move RP away from the hub and encourage more district roleplay.

[TheManBehindTheMemes]

Do be reminded that I've brought up a few things on my main post,

The Underdarkers are forced into a begrudged alliance that theoretically forces them to be nice to one another because if they try to "rock" the boat. They're hunted down, and forced out of Andunor.

Every single Underdarker cannot go to any other cities, because they do not allow monster races. You may argue Sencliff, but even Sencliff restricts MOST underdarkers to an extent, and some exceptions.

Because of Andunor's extreme centralization as it was designed for the small underdark community in the hope that it would prosper again one day. It did the job of being a home of 8 to 10 underdarkers a day very well for what it was designed for.

The main issues of Andunor is the Just Andunor lifestyle. There is other outposts that exists. But neithers can fulfill to get away from Andunor once the player become notorious in Andunor. They're effective hunted down, and running to another district isn't explicitly vital. As I would point out;

With that aside, I agree we may need something else. At first sight it seemed that the Districts could serve as mini-settlements. You get in trouble in one, you go to the other. But this is flawed due to how Andunor is built. You will still be bumping into the same characters you have problems with.

Also I should clarify the Three Cities in One: When I refer to three city in ones. I mean the settlement systems. You can have 3 elected leader, three store depots, and three citizen storages exclusive to these three districts. Everyone can become citizen of that district. Hence the term: Three Cities in One. Because it's just three settlement system combined into one megacity.

[Royal Blood]

It seems like what is being talked about then is like the 'Wharftown' of the UD. But I'd still argue there are options if Andunor becomes uninhabitable. There's the Abyssalist Citadel, both the trading posts, the pirates (Granted a bit complicated due to the sun.) but also the Shadowrealm / Shadod-wharftown. You can even get by in Sibayad depending on -what- monster race you are.

If you've become so notorious or a figure of consequence that the entire city is after you what you need is a temporary place to play some politics or find a resolution. I think there are options like I listed above that allow that. Even in Andunor there is a lot of none district controlled housing. You'd have to be careful moving through the hub but there are options albeit they take more effort.

And I don't think the alliances in the UD are any different then the surface alliances even with all their space. And even on the surface when you rock the boat, guess what! Gank squads still tail you and go for you anyway, there is -no- difference it doesn't matter if there is 1 city or 7. You get scried, bad guys show up and try to kill you where-ever you are at.

[Arigard]

There seems to be a lot of over-reacting over very little in both this thread and the original thread to be honest. The Underdark player numbers are fine, we're nowhere close to being anywhere near to the situation that Durveyas was quoted about, which is almost another lifetime ago. We're talking about a post from 2016, speaking about almost ten years ago.

I'm not sure where this impending sense of dread is coming from about inactivity and decay. It honestly feels like the heavy knee jerk reactions are only coming very shortly after certain Outcast/Slave restrictions, which seems interesting timing, but those changes needed to be made. People were literally gaming the system and making a mockery of both the lore of the world and the systems put in place & it was becoming glaringly obvious to anyone that spends a decent amount of time there.

Can the servers get a little samey? Sure, but then you can say that about any of them. Playing in the same places for years on end will naturally end up with you seeing more and more of its flaws. It's no more boring standing around Andunor than it is Cordor, or Brogdenstein after the 5000th time you've been to those places and the fact that there is usually some kind of drama in the hub is pretty welcome to me as a player.

Andunor is a little -too nice- both with humans/surfacers and within it's own races, but this is honestly a social issue that needs to be changed by it's culture & this culture exists across the whole server, it's not just limited to Andunor. Too many players in my experience react to IC action with OOC, or when something happens they weren't expecting try to push back through tells. People need to be reminded, I think more often, that characters -are not the players-. You're acting. If someone is being evil on a chaotic evil character, or underhand, they are being true to their character. That doesn't mean they are not nice as a person and are going out of their way to 'screw you over'. They are acting and sometimes the scenes end up going ways you might not have expected, but that's roleplay. You react to me and I react to you, I can't second guess how someone will react. That's what makes it fun. Likewise, as the previous poster said, whether you are making enemies below, or above, the same reactions happen, you are just trading one group for another.

One thing I would say though is that it would be cool to have some more places to use as bases for groups. There are very few places in the UD that really can act as a good base for new groups trying to bring fresh RP into the area. Many are hoarded (especially the mansions) by longstanding groups and that makes it difficult for newer collectives trying to build something to get much of a foothold into anything substantial without being hamstrung by the politics of those districts. Perhaps there could be properties scattered throughout the Underdark that are not necessarily just in the middle of Andunor that would allow groups to go out and build out from other areas, this doesn't necessarily require new cities, or areas, but why couldn't there be some interesting housing off of say the Ice Roads, or out in the wilds, so that if people don't want to be politically tied to Andunor they don't have to be.

It is quite surprising that in a city of monsters there is very little scope for banditry, traditional gangs or general everyday thuggishness and I think that is because the housing situation in particular forces people to play nice or risk losing access to their quarters/base etc. The closeness probably does breed a "We have to get along, or one wrong move will make everyone hate us" mentality, but we're talking about minor tweaks, Andunor is definitely not anywhere close to becoming inactive or having half the problems presented in some of these threads.

[Wuthering]

What would people say to Andunor being the trade post (except much bigger than) just like Jhared's trade post, with a new Drow city?

I think if the UD were about drow alone (and maybe their slaves) that could work but if they become the main attraction it completely sidelines everyone else.

If there was another settlement I'd rather go the other direction and see something wild and savage for the much less than civilized races.

[Preytoria]

Honestly? I think the devs should experiment. Why not try temporarily removing the Hub? The ongoing illithid plot is the perfect excuse to have the structure collapse. Keep the outer street triangle of West Wheel - Deep Gate - East Wheel. Move all of the important npcs to this outside perimeter. And spread them out, too. Don't just clump them all together in one spot. And keep them out of the districts for now. I would ensure the Bank, Messenger Goblin, and Writ-giver don't overlap at all, as I think they are the three most important npcs. Have the Hub Portal relocated to someplace unimportant but still accessible. For now, make it still 'show up' as the Hub portal and work like it so people aren't completely screwed out of teleporting back to or from Andunor.

I'd put the Portal in the East wheel, right next to the Sharps entrance. It's across from the Assassin's guild. It basically screams, 'Put a leyline here.' Alternatively someplace in the West Wheel to maybe push people to actually use the Spider's Web.

Try these changes and rock it for a month. Maybe even two months. Take the pulse of how the playerbase reacts. How does the RP change? Where does it take place? How spread out is it? And most importantly? Are the changes for the better? I've seen Bendir collapsed and all the npcs pushed out. So I imagine something similar can be done here.

After the trial period, straight up have a DM throw up a forum post and be like, 'Alright, UD players. Tell us about your experiences without the hub.' Let players weigh in, have the DMs weigh in, and make a decision.

Even IF it's just a temporary change and we go back to how it is now, the dev team will undoubtedly learn some valuable lessons. And these lessons can be applied to any future developments that will undoubtedly happen, be it on the surface or in the Dark. We're already getting crazy here with swashbucklers and hexin heckblades -- new hair and clothing!? Come on! I think the stars are aligned for trying something new. It doesn't strike me as 'too backbreaking,' and I think the payoff could be huge!

[Kuma]

Perhaps there could be properties scattered throughout the Underdark that are not necessarily just in the middle of Andunor that would allow groups to go out and build out from other areas, this doesn't necessarily require new cities, or areas, but why couldn't there be some interesting housing off of say the Ice Roads, or out in the wilds, so that if people don't want to be politically tied to Andunor they don't have to be.

Thinking about things like the Cricket Caves, Fox's Den, Spires Tower, and similar scattered quarters, this is a great idea, really. Wilderness quarters and maybe even smaller guildhouses outside the City could go a long way.

[Ork]

Players. Cease roleplaying behind locked doors 24/7. Andunor truly feels dead outside the hub because everyone is so scared their mechanization will be foiled. Here's a spoiler - it's more fun to do what you're doing in public.

[Irongron]

The underdark, separated into half a dozen racial settlements and guildhouses was in absolute terminal decline, and there is absolutely no way I will go down that route again.

Most locations were deserted, almost all of the time, and a major part of playing there was merely standing around in the hope that someone would show up.

When I remade it I had two pretty simple 'rules' - no racial settlements/enclaves and very few guildhouses, if any.

Players often want to have their own private spaces to pursue their RP guild/settlement ambitions, but I know from years of experience this very soon breaks down, first into cliquism, and then into dead spaces.

Andunor is a huge success, precisely because of the hub, and I find it astonishing anyone can seriously suggest removing it, or splitting the players into extra settlements.

I understand that some players might be getting tired of the same setting, but to do so would be absolutely awful. Andunor is, by far, Arelith's busiest settlement, more than anywhere else on the server it feels genuinely alive, at any hour.

There is a reason it so totally dominated the 'favourite settlement' poll - it is simply a far better design and concept than any other city/town on Arelith, and with the possible exception of Skaljard the only one where interactions are guaranteed at any time of day.

A second town would very soon get locked in permanent PvP, and divide dev time between the two locations. Both would soon become considerably less vibrant, and much less fun to play.

I know it is subjective, but I find this an absolutely terrible suggestion, possibly the worst I've read on the forums for quite some time. There is no way, at all, I will add new monster settlements to the Underdark

[Skibbles]

Hard agree. The Hub is one if the best features out of all the servers.

Yes there are cases where the Hub super sucks, during big conflicts or mini conflicts where you're the only one of your 'allies' hanging around and the like, but it would be a terrible idea to destroy something based on the exceptions rather than the rule.

At any time, even on the hours where almost nobody is playing, you can walk into the hub and boom: role play.

Hell sometimes you actually have to avoid the Hub because there's a great risk of getting into too much RP at once.

[skellyboi]

Personally, I love Andunor, and the Hub is such a great meeting grounds for all sorts of the characters my character has had the good fortune to meet. It really helps to contribute to roleplay in the area, and while maybe a lot of roleplay happens behind closed doors, a lot of those characters have met because of the Hub, and the areas surrounding it, which funnel characters to that central area. I've personally benefitted from that area many times. Adding more settlements would lessen the purpose of the city's design as a central area for the Underdark, in my opinion.

The city is a major part of why the Underdark has become my favorite part of the server.

[AskRyze]

If the PC inhabitants are unhappy with the settlement the NPC authorities have provided, then perhaps they should consider:-

- Proving their faction is better than the other factions by IC getting in the NPC authorities good books - and providing concrete plans on "extending the city" and its surrounding tunnel networks.
- Present the case IC that the various factions are "at each others throats" and need room to breathe.
- Those in danger of being Outcast factions need to secretly roleplay efforts to create new chambers, i.e. Illegally tunneling.
...
I would suggest:

- The Underdark factions need to demonstrate IC ingenuity to DM's and Irongron.
- The Underdark factions need to demonstrate their IC strength, competitively, versus other factions.
- The Underdark factions choose to bend a knee to the NPC authorities of Andunor and beg for a solution.

-------------------------------

Maybe instead of talking about what we don't like, it might be better to play and try to enjoy what is presently the opportunity before us? - DM Rex

I strongly believe that anyone who calls themselves an "underdark player" or a "surface player" is really doing themselves a disservice which does aid in creating the "Us VS Them" mentality. Maybe try to switch things up from time to time to help see things from the other side! - Xerah

The perception of Andunor being 'broken' is a poor take on it to begin with.... I will simply monitor the thread as I do with them all. I'm only disappointed. - DM Rex

I know it is subjective, but I find this an absolutely terrible suggestion, possibly the worst I've read on the forums for quite some time. There is no way, at all, I will add new monster settlements to the Underdark - Irongron

Emphasis mine.
--------------------------------------------------------
Is there player dissatisfaction with how the Hub functions as a chokepoint and avenue for gatekeeping? Yes. Are there avenues to change how the Hub functions? Not without DM assistance. See above quotes.

This is something I've simply come to accept, Tathk. I played with the kobolds a goodly deal. I can personally state that one kobold group or another has been trying to establish a non-andunorian settlement for literal irl years only for the plan to be defused in one way, shape, or form. Personally? I've simply accepted that if you're wanting to do anything in the UD that isn't leveling or dragging someone off to some remote locale so you can "hold hands" over Discord DMs, your options are, to steal OP's gimmick... Just Andunor.

Am I cross? Maybe, years ago. At this point it's like being cross at water for its wetness. I accept that change will not happen unless Iron has an aneurism and whoever inherits the server decides to have a radically different design philosophy, which honestly will likely spell the doom of the server anyway.

And... In a way, Andunor's proximity is part of its charm. I can think of nowhere else on the server where mortal enemies are forced to brush shoulders, leading to some of the most engaging content I have personally been able to experience during my playtime on the server. As long as you don't consider the banwaves which inevitably follow any real-scale conflict in the UD Realistically speaking, if Guldorand were to have a war with Myon, and the DMs allowed it to happen... Nothing would end up actually taking place. The elves would come by, kill the Guldorander NPCs while the Guldorand players were asleep, the Guldoranders would put Chevalle de Frieses in front of the Mythall with a sign saying "Neener-Neener elves suck", and that'd be the end of it. Andunor is as it is *because* of how closely everyone has to rub shoulders... Its not necessarily that everyone is a hugbox, though it comes off that way. The tension boils to the surface quickly and violently, as many have seen. I think I need only call back to last year's Andunor War between house Xyvil'kor and house Xun'viir to exemplify that, though I get the feeling it didn't end as anyone really wanted it to have ended.

Andunor is a strange and uncontrollable beast at the best of times, and I personally couldn't see it behaving any other way. It would simply be 'Another Myon' or 'Another Guldorand' if otherwise - the tension is what keeps it from simply being any other settlement on the server. The fact that players are forced to interact with their enemies; that they have to strive and grapple with a polite yet fundamentally self-centered and evil society; that players who are, frankly, more than willing to hide in a hug-box stroking their pointed ears are forced to confront their foes and have their words weighed against steel - That is why Andunor is how it is. It is an experience that the Surface simply cannot replicate by virtue of ....Well, it's Just Not Andunor.