Zhentarim Class Feedback

[Maladus]

Making this thread to hopefully compile all feedback into one spot. It’s early on in the life of the classes but I have some initial thoughts on one of them.

Enforcer
Losing the free Divine Might and Divine Shield sort of hurts but getting three bonus feats means you should be able to take PA, DM, and DS on those levels of you want (assuming you can take DM and DS on a ZE level) so it’s ok and this opens up other possibilities should you choose not to get those feats, which is good.

My main issue though is the Bluff requirement. Eight points in Bluff means that as a cross class skill for any class that wants to take ZE, you have to spend 16 skill points and an additional 8 skill points to cross class Search. This feels like way too much. Any class that has Bluff as a class skill doesn’t have some of the other skills needed for the prerequisite so you end up spending a ton of skill points on those.

It’s obvious that cross class skills is sort of the point with all of these, however I feel like the skills required for Enforcer squash build diversity.

Also, why does Enforcer require more skill investment than any of the other classes?

Further point of feedback, I don’t like Thug as a prerequisite feat. It buffs Persuasion and not Intimidate which is a skill that most Zhentarim won’t be taking. Perhaps consider swapping that to Skill Focus: Intimidate?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Prerequisites are such an interest way of offering incentive's to certain builds.

1. The skill requirements are definitely more punishing, which I think could be fine IF,

2. Thug wasn't such a waste of a thing. And vice-versa.

I don't see why one of the feat requirements couldn't be Alertness, to mirror the Harpers.

[Hunter548]

Making this thread to hopefully compile all feedback into one spot. It’s early on in the life of the classes but I have some initial thoughts on one of them.

Enforcer
Losing the free Divine Might and Divine Shield sort of hurts but getting three bonus feats means you should be able to take PA, DM, and DS on those levels of you want (assuming you can take DM and DS on a ZE level) so it’s ok and this opens up other possibilities should you choose not to get those feats, which is good.

My main issue though is the Bluff requirement. Eight points in Bluff means that as a cross class skill for any class that wants to take ZE, you have to spend 16 skill points and an additional 8 skill points to cross class Search. This feels like way too much. Any class that has Bluff as a class skill doesn’t have some of the other skills needed for the prerequisite so you end up spending a ton of skill points on those.

It’s obvious that cross class skills is sort of the point with all of these, however I feel like the skills required for Enforcer squash build diversity.

Also, why does Enforcer require more skill investment than any of the other classes?

Further point of feedback, I don’t like Thug as a prerequisite feat. It buffs Persuasion and not Intimidate which is a skill that most Zhentarim won’t be taking. Perhaps consider swapping that to Skill Focus: Intimidate?

Take a look at the harper skill pre-reqs. They're pretty comparably hefty and cross-class-required.

[Maladus]

For Harper Paragon (the mirror of Enforcer) you can take Bard and have one cross class skill. For Enforcer (and possibly others I haven’t looked) no matter how you slice it you will have at least two cross class skills. In the case of Enforcer if you take Bard first, you will need four more levels to meet the requirements than for Paragon. Add onto this that Thug is essentially worthless on an Enforcer and you have a recipe for bad.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

[Maladus]

I was talking with some other players and I had a question. Is there any reason why one of the prerequisite feats for these classes can't also be Alertness like the Harpers?

[Inordinate]

Take a look at the harper skill pre-reqs. They're pretty comparably hefty and cross-class-required.

But +2 Spot/Listen is actually mechanically useful in some degree, even small. +2 Initiative and +2 Persuade is effectively worthless if we're trying to mirror the Harpers with these PrCs.

[Draco]

I would say the Thug feat should be switched out for something a bit more useful on some level. Like Skill Focus Bluff, or Intimidate.

[Hunter548]

Take a look at the harper skill pre-reqs. They're pretty comparably hefty and cross-class-required.

But +2 Spot/Listen is actually mechanically useful in some degree, even small. +2 Initiative and +2 Persuade is effectively worthless if we're trying to mirror the Harpers with these PrCs.

Sure. I'm not debating that - simply pointing out that their skill requirements aren't that disparate. I certainly know I'd rather cc some bluff (on a build that eventually gets bluff as a class skill) than cc persuade as an example.

[Maladus]

The skills aren't really that even either for reasons I pointed out before.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I will agree thug is entirely worthless as a skill, and it may be a key to entry deal but its +2 persuade, its not used in any aspect anywhere except key dialogue choices that are few and far between, even then +2 isnt much

[Chosen Son]

Eithrr sf bluff or intimidate is a good solution. Both are thematic and useful in some ways.

[Hunter548]

Are the Zhent classes going to get some sort of level 5 bonus, as Harpers do with their ability to vote everywhere that's common across all the classes? One would probably benefit them.

[Dreams]

It would be interesting to see some sort of reflected ability.

e.g. Harpers can vote everywhere. (Positive influence on society)
Zhents could get % bonuses to the amount they offer for assassinations. (Negative influence on society)
Similar goal/outcomes for both, but they go about it in very different manners.

[Draco]

The Zhentarim Fear Speaker just seems like a carbon copy of the Harper Priest, with the exception of minor changes to the class requirements. Other classes got small changes to make it more thematic but the Zhentarim Fear Speaker still only gets bonuses to Turn Undead. Is turning undead and outsiders a priority in any way for the Zhentarim? It is also a useless class for Favored Souls who don't even get Turn Undead.