Loremaster Feedback Megathread

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Issues I see with the epic focus at such an early level right off the bat-

Warlocks with spammable cl 26 greater dispels.
paladins making a copy of themselves with epic focus illusion.

[Chosen Son]

Normal pathless Wizards were already in a bad spot. Making it so any class able to grab the needed gsf feats can ward, scry etc takes away some of the little utility they still had. I would make being an epic wizard, sorc, cleric or druid a recuirment to get the esf knowlage abilities.

[the grim yeeter]

Issues I see with the epic focus at such an early level right off the bat-

Warlocks with spammable cl 26 greater dispels.
paladins making a copy of themselves with epic focus illusion.

And rangers.

Both -ward and the ESF: illu clone are a problem here, because with a 4 loremaster dip (4 instead of 3 for better wand bark AC) you can get either of the two on a full BAB melee (or archer) class.

[Chosen Son]

4 loremaster levels lets you grab 1 esf on a paladin, or ranger as well as the ac secret making the loss of tumble ac only 1. You recover 1 ac from the secret and another from the buffed 5 ac barkskin wand.

Also of esf abj will buff holy sword cl even further for a paladin thats a real issue. The class is already strong. Holy sword does not need a cl buff.

[Nevrus]

It should be noted that it sounds like only Enchantment benefits from any spell scaling due to taking the Secret. The others only give the perk:
no epic spell backlash damage for evocation,
ward for abjuration,
yoink for conjuration,
portal creation for transmutation,
image projection for illusion,
Dracolich and 1/day Create Greater Undead for necromancy,
and scry for Divination.

They don't grant bonus dispel CL for abjuration, or bonus summon stats, or DC. These secrets do NOT just give you the ESF feats. They give you some of the benefits but not all. It might be best to list out the actual benefits for each feat to dispel doubt as to what you will actually get because it's unintuitive and we've had to ferret this out from some dev responses.

[the grim yeeter]

It has just been confirmed that gnomes, which get sf: illu at 1st level, can take gsf: illu without any caster levels whatsoever, which in turn means that, for example, a gnome fighter/wm/lm could get access to the esf: illu clone. That also definitely shouldn't be possible.

[Zaphiel]

It has just been confirmed that gnomes, which get sf: illu at 1st level, can take gsf: illu without any caster levels whatsoever, which in turn means that, for example, a gnome fighter/wm/lm could get access to the esf: illu clone. That also definitely shouldn't be possible.

You can't use ESF perks before level 21.

[the grim yeeter]

What do you mean? 21st caster level, or 21st character level? Because what does it matter if it's 21st character level? The problem isn't when they get it, it's that they get it at all.

Additionally, the loremaster update doesn't say anything about it. It just says this about Secret of [spell school]:

Pre-requisite: Greater spell focus on respective school.

This feat allows you to access the benefits of Epic Spell Focus.
For example: Taking Secret Knowledge Divination will grant access to -scry command without need to having Epic Spell Focus: Divination.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

What I meant by early level in my post above is the lore master levels, just to clarify. I know you said on discord you were going to make them 21 and up, but that doesn't stop a 26/4 warlock loremaster from having access to spammable dc 26 dispels for example, or a 26 pally or ranger 4 loremaster from having a twin thanks to illusion. Since they get two at 4, they can even get another one of these if they want, though i suspect that will only be true with the warlock since the fighter classes won't want to give up so many feats.

[Zaphiel]

What do you mean? 21st caster level, or 21st character level? Because what does it matter if it's 21st character level? The problem isn't when they get it, it's that they get it at all.

Additionally, the loremaster update doesn't say anything about it. It just says this about Secret of [spell school]:

Pre-requisite: Greater spell focus on respective school.

This feat allows you to access the benefits of Epic Spell Focus.
For example: Taking Secret Knowledge Divination will grant access to -scry command without need to having Epic Spell Focus: Divination.

It is 21st character level, yes.

[the grim yeeter]

It is 21st character level, yes.

I'll spell it out.

21-30, a gnome fighter/wm/lm, or any variations thereof will get access to a full melee clone of themselves. This is not balanced.

Access to these feats is balanced around having 21 FULL CASTER levels, not having a 3-4 level dip. This is unbalanced in the case of gish (e.g., ranger, paladin) classes. This is even moreso given a gnome can access esf: illu without a gish class or any caster class for that matter.

Loremaster also seems to be the very antithesis of the presumed intent of the lore update (which I think was to remove higher level scrolls from non-casting classes, although I can't be sure, as it doesn't do that well, really) and allows for reasonable dips to get to 80 lore at the cost of a minor AC loss.

Is loremaster just going to replace the old UMD dip (and potentially even be arguably better than that, because of higher level WoFs and Mords, and the ability to make a clone of yourself, while hardly suffering from tumble AC loss for reasons stated above) that was hated by so many (with poor reasoning)?

[Zaphiel]

It is 21st character level, yes.

I'll spell it out.

21-30, a fighter/wm/lm, or any variations thereof will get access to a full melee clone of themselves. This is not balanced. Access to these feats is balanced around having 21 FULL CASTER levels, not having a 3-4 level dip. This is unbalanced in the case of gish (e.g., ranger, paladin) classes. This is even moreso given a gnome can access esf: illu without a gish class or any caster class for that matter.

Loremaster also seems to be the very antithesis of the presumed intent of the lore update (which I think was to remove higher level scrolls from non-casting classes, although I can't be sure, as it doesn't do that well, really) and allows for reasonable dips to get to 80 lore at the cost of a minor AC loss.

Is loremaster just going to replace the old UMD dip (and potentially even be arguably better than that, because of higher level WoFs and Mords, and the ability to make a clone of yourself, while hardly suffering from tumble AC loss for reasons stated above) that was hated by so many (with poor reasoning)?

I am pretty sure I have mentioned people to not build around ESF: Illusion. Maybe read the thread beforehand?

[the grim yeeter]

Oh, I did read that. Don't worry.

Please, tell us, why shouldn't they?

[Frailman]

The reason you shouldn't build around the Illusion is it goes away after a round. If that's a bug or not I don't know, but on PGCC the illusion is just gone sort of immediately.

Ideas for knowledges:

Secret Knowledge of Nooks & Crannies: Autosucceed on finding hidden doorways

Secret Knowledge of Artifice: Golemcrafting enabled

Secret Knowledge of Stars & Waves: Massively reduced ship travel time

Secret Knowledge of Attention & Periphery: Toggleable state to cause all enemies in outdoor areas to be non-hostile until you get near á la beasts

Secret Knowledge of Bacterial Symbiosis: Disease effects reversed, grant bonus instead.

Secret Knowledge of Autochronomatic Experience: Double ticks baby, for better or worse, two ticks instead of one B)

[the grim yeeter]

The reason you shouldn't build around the Illusion is it goes away after a round. If that's a bug or not I don't know, but on PGCC the illusion is just gone sort of immediately.

The description says otherwise, so if it is actually a round and that is not a bug (I would have a hard time believing it's intentional), then that should be clarified in the update post and description. If it is a bug and it is decided that it will be kept that way, then that should be added to the description as well.

Epic Spell Focus: Illusion enables you to make a copy of yourself (or someone else) with the look of the target's current gear and the caster's current stats through the epic ability in your radial menu. The copy can fight, but it cannot cast spells. The copy will last 1 hour/caster level or until you rest. On top of this, you can speak through the copy using the -a command. The copy can be maneuvered and the stealth and detect mode toggled using the Associate Tool and the radial menu.

Going by the description on the wiki (and by how it always has worked before), this would make the duration for gish classes more than long enough (especially in PvP, which only very occasionally lasts longer than an in-game hour). For a character without caster levels, the description suggests this will still make for a full in-game hour, which is also already very powerful in the case of full BAB melee/ranged characters using it.

[-slave]

Can... Can Commoners take this class?

I think a lot of what the loremaster has to offer, would be of huge benefit as a possible side-grade to specialist.\

Edit: A secret to also unlock racial based craft recipes would be A++

[Zaphiel]

This class is very adventure oriented one. So I wouldn't expect it to be open to commoners.

[-slave]

This class is very adventure oriented one. So I wouldn't expect it to be open to commoners.

But... Muh Studies! (Fair enough I guess)

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Normal pathless Wizards were already in a bad spot. Making it so any class able to grab the needed gsf feats can ward, scry etc takes away some of the little utility they still had. I would make being an epic wizard, sorc, cleric or druid a recuirment to get the esf knowlage abilities.

I agree with Chosen Son's sentiment (though I'd suggest Bard / Wizard / Sorcerer / Cleric / Druid / Shaman).

(Loremaster-Commoner with an Award?)

I put the suggestion forward:

A Loremaster needs to be defined as something special, requiring lifelong commitment and endeavour (a Deckard Cain from Diablo). The time requirements (studying tomes by candlelight at all hours - the incessant drive for knowledge at all costs) might well be incompatible with in extremis chivalric ideals or other advanced martial training.

I think the current "vision" of a Loremaster is caught between being a mundane extension and something more fantastical.

It is a Specialist. The other Specialist has a class requirement of Level 21.

Edit - That is, somewhere between Life-Long commitment to non-martial academia AND a Specialist is where a Loremaster lies.

Edit 2 - Please also consider a Loremaster in terms of alignment. It might well be argued that a Loremaster shares similar thinking to a classic bard, travelling across borders regardless of politics or war seeking access to the libraries of all manner of leaders.

This strongly suggests a commitment to Neutrality in some form. The long term preservation of lore and knowledge comes above immediate political circumstance. Current local leaderships strike me as being benefactors or obstacles to their intentions -- Loremasters must surely strive to show their open-minded / neutral credentials so they are invited in.


-- Tath.

[Quidix]

Could "Secret Knowledge of the Artisan: This feat unlocks all class specific recipes" be considered to be opened to commoners as well?

[AstralUniverse]

Could we not make commoners any more of the crafting vault bot they already are?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Reading off the public news/whatever arelith page:

"Knowledge of Newtonian physics..."

I highly recommend finding a new wording as this can be highly problematic immersion wise on multiple levels:

1) Newton is a specific man in real life history and reference a real life scientist in a fantasy realm that doesn't directly share our same history of scientific progress is problematic

2) some, myself included, may argue that many laws we assume in our world are out the window in DnD from normal life being a balance of essences that are found in pure forms on various planes to "air drag" in spelljammer where nature does not abhor a vacuum. We should just avoid said debate of real life versus DnD physics and keep a real life person references out of our fantasy realm.

3) I was going to rant on how Newtonian is outdated anyways and then found this fun read:
https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience ... fwrong.htm

So I don't actaully have a third point, but I do strongly think we need to axe references to Newton.

[Irongron]

So I don't actaully have a third point, but I do strongly think we need to axe references to Newton.

You're absolutely right, I've changed that.

[msterswrdsmn]

I've got to ask; what exactly is the intended role/purpose of a loremaster?

The description reads like "an adventuring scholar who wants to learn as much as he can can about the island"

The class features to me look like
"skilldump bard without the need for CHA with access to epic spell bonuses and immediate language learning"

[Nevrus]

Secret Knowledge of Exploration is terrible because it eventually becomes completely useless- the moment you hit 30. I could see this maybe being useful for a character intended to be disposed of for an epic roll (something we want to discourage) but even then they'd be better off taking something more mechanically meaty.

I'd tie some other role-play related benefits to it, like track interaction, that maintain their usefulness as an ability forever. As an added bonus to another ability, though, the experience boost is interesting. Just not enough as a one-off to ever consider choosing for good reasons.