STR Melee is bad, please buff

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

One solution could be to have monk wis AC, divine might/shield and divin/dark blessing bonuses cap with level, like insightful strike does on Swashbuckler. That would make dipping a lot less useful.

I never liked hiw monks get ubab instead of x amount of bonus attacks for y amount of monk levels, but i feel the real culprit is qaurter staff. If every monk dip had kamas instead, two handed disarm users would get a significant advantage against them (str builds csn do both one hand and 2 hand with the way weapon feats work now(

[Archnon]

So, one thing I really loved about the new classes that the team has introduced is that they have done an amazing job making the class interesting for a dip but also scaling those abilities for a full class.

As it stands, it seems like you are likely to dip for 1.) Tumble 2.) Discipline 3.) Charisma Bonus, 4.) Fighter. The monk actually hits two of these bonuses, and comes with just an unholy slew of other benefits. However, what would make things more interesting is, if like the new classes, the dips were balanced so you had some concrete choices to make. So assuming all of our feat starved builds take at least a 4 fighter dip (This can net you improved Weapon Specialization and 1 additional feat if you do it right) then our choices for a 3 level dip are.


1.) Bard - UMD, Tumble, Discipline, Spellcraft, Access to Spells, Bard Items
2.) Rogue - UMD, Tumble, Skill points, Weapon Finesse, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge
3.) Swashbuckler - Tumble, Discipline, +2-3 Damage, +1 reflex save, Full BAB Dip

and then
4.) Pal - 6-8+Charisma Saves, Disease Immunity, Fear Immunity, Smite, Turning, and Access to D Might/Shield, Discipline
5.) BG - 6-8+Charisma Saves, Poison, Bulls Strength, Smite, Turning, and Access to D. Might/Shield, Discipline

and Finally Monk
6.) +6-8AC, Improved APR, Cleave, WF Unarmed, 10% movement speed, evasion, deflect arrow, still mind , Tumble and Discipline

7.) Hexblade -- I don't know it but someone can fill it in.

Way I see it, the first three are pretty even and involve real choices. The 4-6 are no brainers and the problem is the non scaling stuff. +6-8 saves or AC is huge. Add in all the other stuff and it is nuts.

I would cap Charisma saves and Monk AC at 1+1 per 3 levels. That would give Pal and BG +2 to saves, much more in line with say swashbuckler. +2 AC on monk is still good, but it means sacrificing shield/armor. However, for a dual wield character with ranger levels it almost washes out. (+5 on a full ranger instead of +6 from parry or sword and board). These changes alone would make it an actual choice between Rogue, Swash, Bard, Pal/BG, and Monk. It may also open up the gates to other dips in addition to these.

I would also gate the UBAB behind majority monk levels. To be honest, UBAB seems like it was designed for taking a 3/4 BAB class for a melee driven class. It is jumping the shark if you get UBAB on a full BAB class.

I would also make it so that D Might and D Shield. must be taken on a paladin/BG level and the earliest you could take them is level 4. That forces a 5 level dip for those features, which is more substantial, but not breaking as they already require a lot.



Thanks you for coming to my senseless nerfing ted talk! You may now commence to tear me apart!


***EDIT*** Also, let me just say that this is coming from someone who just planned a Ranger/Monk/Fighter character as his new main character. I did it because it is hands down the best build if you are playing a dex/wis character. A pure monk, or monk fighter could not compete for AC and AB with the ranger build.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

3.) Swashbuckler - Tumble, Discipline, +2-3 Damage, +1 reflex save, Full BAB Dip

Just a sidebar, but I'm fascinated you'd equate Swashbuckler to bard or rogue. I've toyed with many builds, and I keep wanting to put in Swashbuckler - but it just doesn't compare to the utility of Bard or Rogue. Weapon Finesse has already been selected, which makes the free feat redundant. The damage keys off Intelligence as well as being a dex-build, because of the armour restrictions, which really narrows it further.

Frankly, I don't think Swashbucklers dips are very good at all - as a whole. But this goes back to the class in PnP itself.

The new Hexblade changes are much more rewarding.

[Archnon]

3.) Swashbuckler - Tumble, Discipline, +2-3 Damage, +1 reflex save, Full BAB Dip

Just a sidebar, but I'm fascinated you'd equate Swashbuckler to bard or rogue. I've toyed with many builds, and I keep wanting to put in Swashbuckler - but it just doesn't compare to the utility of Bard or Rogue. Weapon Finesse has already been selected, which makes the free feat redundant. The damage keys off Intelligence as well as being a dex-build, because of the armour restrictions, which really narrows it further.

Frankly, I don't think Swashbucklers dips are very good at all - as a whole. But this goes back to the class in PnP itself.

The new Hexblade changes are much more rewarding.

To sidebar your sidebar, the swashbuckler dip has some benefits for netting that +2-3 damage that comes from Int. The real benefit though is getting a full BAB class dip, with 2 main saves and still getting access to tumble and discipline. I think, as a dip it could use a little more punch, but it is not bad. In the event of a monk nerf, I could actually see an early swashbuckler dip being a good option for Rangers to get tumble, finesse and a little bonus damage.

[Anomandaris]

This may be an unpopular opinion but, I’m gonna share it anyway. This isn’t an MMO or a competitive PvP game like League of Legends, it’s a rp server built on a very old game. While balance certainly is important to create some build diversity and a healthy ecosystem, we seem to be obsessed with it. I would rather see focused discussions and dev efforts related to cool content and ideas that enrich rp, rather than “reigning in quarter staff” or nerfing a class dip. A quarterstaff, high saves or high ac divine build is not preventing anyone here from developing an interesting narrative. It does however make me wary to spin up new characters that may be nerfed into oblivion after they become the flavor of the month, game breaking OP villain of the server.

What is the actual goal here? To have all builds do roughly the same damage per round despite weapon, primary ability and class? This sounds awfully boring. Balance is pretty good as it is. There are a massive range of builds available that are both fun rp concepts and can outplay the whole servers’ PvE, as well as being 100% viable in PvP. No one build is terrorizing the server, and while ranger monks certainly are strong, they’re entirely counter-able and killable. And player skill plus wonky nwn x-factors will always be a thing.

Can we stop obsessing on a quest to find perfect balance by nerfing things that are dangerous? This isn’t a PvP arena, we don’t need to have every build, class or race reaching the same potential. It’s also not possible or effective, people will always minmax and power build when some won’t. It just seems a strange cultural thing that has taken root pretty firmly. It’s fine if another PC is stronger or has cool toys mine doesn’t. I always have the choice to build something else and get those things if I want to.

I don’t have a pc with monk dip nor divine shield. I do have a sorc with divine saves. It’d be really annoying to have that nerfed because people complained until devs thought it was a systemic problem. It’s a big part of what makes the PC work mechanically and would be very frustrating. I’m not running around the server murdering people or flaunting my high saves ruining others fun. The impact these things existing has on our personal play experience just sounds a little hyperbolic to me honestly. Reading this you’d almost think that there is a cabal of evil ranger monks terrorizing the server, unpunishable due to their obscene might. Just my two cents after watching this whole back and forth.

[Wrips]

Divine Shield is the only thing that allows STR builds to compete with Barb/WM without being char_deleted in the first couple rounds. A STR divine dip fighter will have around 60-62 AC fully warded (not third party AC boost, like MV, SoF, etc) without Divine Shield, while a Barb/WM can have 54 AB while jacking 6 APR. It also, at last, allows you to breath against ranged characters.

In addition, Divine Shield is Dodge AC, which is completely lost if you are flat footed (which can happen due to lag, bad pathfinding, stumbling on panthom obstacles, misclicking, etc), has a duration CHA mod rounds (usually 10 rounds max).

The Monk dip, however, gives: +8-9 AC that isn't lost in any circunstance, Deflect Arrows, Monk UBAB, Slippery Mind, 10% Speed Increase, among others. It also doesn't have the 13 STR and Power Attack requirement, which usually means higher primary and/or secondary attributes for the monk dip - it also covers important Skills like Tumble and Discipline.

tl;dr Divine dip is fine, you need to spend three feats, a class slot, CHA investment and 5 attribute points on Strength to have it's benefit. Monks just need the WIS and a class slot investment (with much better skill dump choices) for a ridiculous power spike.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

3.) Swashbuckler - Tumble, Discipline, +2-3 Damage, +1 reflex save, Full BAB Dip

Just a sidebar, but I'm fascinated you'd equate Swashbuckler to bard or rogue. I've toyed with many builds, and I keep wanting to put in Swashbuckler - but it just doesn't compare to the utility of Bard or Rogue. Weapon Finesse has already been selected, which makes the free feat redundant. The damage keys off Intelligence as well as being a dex-build, because of the armour restrictions, which really narrows it further.

Frankly, I don't think Swashbucklers dips are very good at all - as a whole. But this goes back to the class in PnP itself.

The new Hexblade changes are much more rewarding.

What if i told you that you can still be str based in light/medium armor

[Beard Master Flex]

I played a Barb/Ranger/Bard that wore Ranger Studded leather, 2 hand axe, EDRIII with AC in the high 40's self buffed without counting Expertise.

One time I partied with a healer cleric whose temperary HP bonus gave me a few hit points over 1000 when I was raging and we two-manned most content I could think of.

Probably the only thing I could think of to make that build better (for pve) would be a shield... but what kind of Barbarian uses a shield.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

3.) Swashbuckler - Tumble, Discipline, +2-3 Damage, +1 reflex save, Full BAB Dip

Just a sidebar, but I'm fascinated you'd equate Swashbuckler to bard or rogue. I've toyed with many builds, and I keep wanting to put in Swashbuckler - but it just doesn't compare to the utility of Bard or Rogue. Weapon Finesse has already been selected, which makes the free feat redundant. The damage keys off Intelligence as well as being a dex-build, because of the armour restrictions, which really narrows it further.

Frankly, I don't think Swashbucklers dips are very good at all - as a whole. But this goes back to the class in PnP itself.

The new Hexblade changes are much more rewarding.

What if i told you that you can still be str based in light/medium armor

Is this because Ranger Studded Leather Armour gives you enough AC to do it? I know historically this was a death sentence. I always forget the gear changes have really changed a lot.

[Drowboy]

Dragon leather armor is the good stuff.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Just a sidebar, but I'm fascinated you'd equate Swashbuckler to bard or rogue. I've toyed with many builds, and I keep wanting to put in Swashbuckler - but it just doesn't compare to the utility of Bard or Rogue. Weapon Finesse has already been selected, which makes the free feat redundant. The damage keys off Intelligence as well as being a dex-build, because of the armour restrictions, which really narrows it further.

Frankly, I don't think Swashbucklers dips are very good at all - as a whole. But this goes back to the class in PnP itself.

The new Hexblade changes are much more rewarding.

What if i told you that you can still be str based in light/medium armor

Is this because Ranger Studded Leather Armour gives you enough AC to do it? I know historically this was a death sentence. I always forget the gear changes have really changed a lot.

The ranger studded leather definitely helps ALOT! Being a + 4 and giving you free dex.

But the reason it helps are two principles:

1) if you can reach the max dex value of any armor set, it's comparable to fullplate; a plus 4 studded leather armor with dex mod 4 is the same as fullplate + 3. A swash buckler weapon master with base dex 13 can achieve this mere cats grace potions. Its why bards are str based as they can easily buff up their dex mod with grensteel armor and start with dex 10 or 8.

2) dex characters cap out at dex mod 14 or 15 for most optimal builds which is only 5 more than full plate + 1 and they need to use a shield if they want to keep that ac edge/advantage if they are not a monk. They need at least a dex mod of 10 before armor becomes obsolete. So when you are leveling, with the right buffs, you can have the same ac as a dex character in light armor with the hitting power of strength.

A str based ranger can easily sword and board early levels or go dual wield when they arnt the tank. When they are the tank, expertise plus summon scrolls can let them solo content decently well. Its the same thing that allows clerics or any fullplate non weapon master build to start dex 8, they buff it up to 12.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont think it was pointed out yet but... Gear.

Lets talk about gearing a character in Arelith.

Dial back to 2009,
This is an endgame item:
+1 stat
+1 stat
+2 skill
+2 skill

That's it, an end game ring without 5%.

And look where we are now. You have armors with +3 charisma, or +4 dex, or medium armors with +6 ac. It's really no wonder people refer to divine or monk dips as free no-brainer stats you invest nothing for. Its the gearing that became too easy and broke the game a lot more than the lore change and the buffs to dexers across the board. Maybe we should look at that aspect of the balance as well.

[Jagel]

I think one of the major principles of balance is to ensure lots of viable options and no way to have it all. The best builds try their hardest to have as much of it all as possible and the meta picks are those that manage to include as much power with as few drawbacks as possible.

Starting a build with the questions: how will I get mid 40s ab, 65+ AC and 30+ saves really narrows things down -.-

[Chosen Son]

Str meele builds might appear deceptively powerful, if players are taking performance in an enclosed arena atmosphere as indication of strenght. In practice, all too often you need to one line pvp people, with overwhelming alpha strike damage to kill someone that does not want to be killed in "real" pvp. Spellswords ice imbue helps a bit in pinning someone down, as does paladins holysword, because they can dispel haste sometime and prevent people from running away, but otherwise, you are dependent on someone chosing to die effectively, once KD was nerfed and timestop was removed as a way to finish someone. It is somewhat humorous, that paladins and cots can be neutralized by running around until their wrath, or other buffs run out. Unless you have made a mistake, you dont need to in anyway deal with their abilities. While I understand it is an oversimplification, its not too inaccurate to say that you can just press w until the threat is over.

[godhand-]

This may be an unpopular opinion but, I’m gonna share it anyway. This isn’t an MMO or a competitive PvP game like League of Legends, it’s a rp server built on a very old game. While balance certainly is important to create some build diversity and a healthy ecosystem, we seem to be obsessed with it. I would rather see focused discussions and dev efforts related to cool content and ideas that enrich rp, rather than “reigning in quarter staff” or nerfing a class dip. A quarterstaff, high saves or high ac divine build is not preventing anyone here from developing an interesting narrative. It does however make me wary to spin up new characters that may be nerfed into oblivion after they become the flavor of the month, game breaking OP villain of the server.

What is the actual goal here? To have all builds do roughly the same damage per round despite weapon, primary ability and class? This sounds awfully boring. Balance is pretty good as it is. There are a massive range of builds available that are both fun rp concepts and can outplay the whole servers’ PvE, as well as being 100% viable in PvP. No one build is terrorizing the server, and while ranger monks certainly are strong, they’re entirely counter-able and killable. And player skill plus wonky nwn x-factors will always be a thing.

Can we stop obsessing on a quest to find perfect balance by nerfing things that are dangerous? This isn’t a PvP arena, we don’t need to have every build, class or race reaching the same potential. It’s also not possible or effective, people will always minmax and power build when some won’t. It just seems a strange cultural thing that has taken root pretty firmly. It’s fine if another PC is stronger or has cool toys mine doesn’t. I always have the choice to build something else and get those things if I want to.

I don’t have a pc with monk dip nor divine shield. I do have a sorc with divine saves. It’d be really annoying to have that nerfed because people complained until devs thought it was a systemic problem. It’s a big part of what makes the PC work mechanically and would be very frustrating. I’m not running around the server murdering people or flaunting my high saves ruining others fun. The impact these things existing has on our personal play experience just sounds a little hyperbolic to me honestly. Reading this you’d almost think that there is a cabal of evil ranger monks terrorizing the server, unpunishable due to their obscene might. Just my two cents after watching this whole back and forth.

I can't +1 this enough. +10, no, +100000

However, for what its worth I think the balance is the best its ever been right now and there isn't need any dramatic changes. I can see their being some wisdom in PERHAPS, and i really need to emphasise the PERHAPS, removing the +2ab from Qstaff but even then i don't think its a neccessity.

Can we please remember this is a REALLY COMPLICATED game of rock paper scissors where there is an answer for everything, you're just not aware of it, or, your build met its match. Oh and don't forget those pesky one rolls or 20rolls that ruin everyones day.

[The Rambling Midget]

This may be an unpopular opinion but, I’m gonna share it anyway. This isn’t an MMO or a competitive PvP game like League of Legends, it’s a rp server built on a very old game.

It's not exclusively PvP, but PvP is a significant aspect. It can't be ignored.

While balance certainly is important to create some build diversity and a healthy ecosystem, we seem to be obsessed with it.

The majority of posts on these forums are not about mechanics. It only stands out, because you don't agree with what's being said. Moreover, threads like this really only come up when the balance is way out of whack, as it has slowly become. STR melee used to be king. In an effort to make other builds more enticing, DEX and others were gradually buffed over the course of years. Now it's gone just a tad too far, and those concerned with balance would like to see it shifted back a hair. There are few, if any, pitchforks or torches, here.

What is the actual goal here? To have all builds do roughly the same damage per round despite weapon, primary ability and class? This sounds awfully boring.

The goal is to allow all players the necessary agency to play out their individual stories, without being pushed aside by powerbuilders and pridegamers.

Can we stop obsessing on a quest to find perfect balance by nerfing things that are dangerous? This isn’t a PvP arena, we don’t need to have every build, class or race reaching the same potential.

Nobody wants them to have the same potential. We want them to have comparable potential, so that the choice of what type of characters we play is based entirely on RP instead of mechanics. If you know that the class you want to play is going to leave you miserably slogging while others breeze through, you're going to think twice about playing it. That's the real diversity killer.

Your heart's in the right place, but what you don't understand is that mechanics have to be balanced (or nearly) in order to give players the best opportunity to RP freely. When the game is rock-paper-scissors, everyone has a chance. When it's puppy vs meatgrinder, I sincerely doubt if the ground meat that comes out the other end is going to say "Let's play again."

[godhand-]

When the game is rock-paper-scissors, everyone has a chance. When it's puppy vs meatgrinder, I sincerely doubt if the ground meat that comes out the other end is going to say "Let's play again."

The idea that a STR build which hits 63 AC vs the dex Ranger Monk at 65ish is a puppy vs meatgrinder is the greatest example of hyperbole i've seen on theforums in a while.

Yes, the Dex build will usually get more opportunities to throw wet noodles at the STR build, but when the STR build hits its going to feel alot more like a branch than a noodle.

Thats how this STR vs Dex thing goes, almost akin to gambling, are you putting all your money into one game or hedging your bets over multiple?

[The Rambling Midget]

greatest example of hyperbole i've seen on theforums in a while.

That was a general statement about game balance, not a specific reference to ranger monks or whatever else.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

When the game is rock-paper-scissors, everyone has a chance. When it's puppy vs meatgrinder, I sincerely doubt if the ground meat that comes out the other end is going to say "Let's play again."

The idea that a STR build which hits 63 AC vs the dex Ranger Monk at 65ish is a puppy vs meatgrinder is the greatest example of hyperbole i've seen on theforums in a while.

I don't think Rambling was drawing that comparison - although I can see how it might be construed that way. Rather, we want to have these conversations to prevent the "puppy vs. meatgrinder" scenario.

Undoubtedly, STR still has a place - as witnessed by this thread. The more emergent concern is how much DEX has narrowed the gap, and a worry that this gap might continue to narrow.

Additionally, there is concern that a lot of STR characters have been left behind in the "goodies" department - whether that is with gear, or with feats. Which is very easy to discern by comparing the amount of Light/Medium vs. Heavy armour.

Don't be hyperbolic yourself. Some folks here are being outlandish in their claims - and we've dialed that back. With the concurrent conversation of quarterstaves, there is notable concern about some area of balance.

[Dr. B]

Can we add meatgrinder as a playable race?

[AstralUniverse]

I think comparing the Ranger/monk to a meatgrinder isnt even too far off. That build deals too much damage for how defensive it is and the apr it has.

[godhand-]

I think comparing the Ranger/monk to a meatgrinder isnt even too far off. That build deals too much damage for how defensive it is and the apr it has.

it hits for ~35 against its favored enemies, and it gets enough favored enemies to get 95% of the player races, which gives the player a choice, PvP or PvE.
If you chose PvP/player races, which means for alot of endgame content its often doing ~20-25 damage a hit before DR/DI of endgame mobs comes into play If you chose PvE you hit against players like the above mentioned wet noodle.
The point i raise the above, it it gives players a choice as to what they want tofocus, and with all choices, you gain a benefit somewhere at a cost elsewhere. (admittedly engame AC is less consistent than PVP so they hit more often and PvE is less of a hit).

Either way, i wouldn't call that "too much".... Given... at an assumed 50ab, 48 after flurry.... 48/45/42/39/36/33/(offhand)48/45/(haste/flurry)48/45
only 6 attacks are at a reasonable hit rate, the remaining 4 are fishing for 20's against 62AC or higher.

I'll call this an estimated average of 6hits/round at 40/hit for an estimated 240 per round average. There are many STR builds which will critical for that much in a single hit, and can and will crit once per round or more.

[AstralUniverse]

I think comparing the Ranger/monk to a meatgrinder isnt even too far off. That build deals too much damage for how defensive it is and the apr it has.

it hits for ~35 against its favored enemies, and it gets enough favored enemies to get 95% of the player races, which gives the player a choice, PvP or PvE.
If you chose PvP/player races, which means for alot of endgame content its often doing ~20-25 damage a hit before DR/DI of endgame mobs comes into play If you chose PvE you hit against players like the above mentioned wet noodle.
The point i raise the above, it it gives players a choice as to what they want tofocus, and with all choices, you gain a benefit somewhere at a cost elsewhere. (admittedly engame AC is less consistent than PVP so they hit more often and PvE is less of a hit).

Either way, i wouldn't call that "too much".... Given... at an assumed 50ab, 48 after flurry.... 48/45/42/39/36/33/(offhand)48/45/(haste/flurry)48/45
only 6 attacks are at a reasonable hit rate, the remaining 4 are fishing for 20's against 62AC or higher.

I'll call this an estimated average of 6hits/round at 40/hit for an estimated 240 per round average. There are many STR builds which will critical for that much in a single hit, and can and will crit once per round or more.

Comparing apr and damage alone is vacuum. Those str builds which crit for 240 have lower ac, and in many cases next to no ac. Also, after I played a ranger and with rangers, I can tell you it's not really that hard to cover most pve creature types after you've covered most of the relevant pvp types to your character. If pick FE correctly according to your concept and what you'll be hunting, pve and pvp, you rarely find yourself in situations where you're not dealing FE damage. 11-12 FE, come on.

I'm not even saying STR is in that bad of a place right now and 1-shot builds with truestrike are pretty good. The thing is, str builds are far better early-mid game and dex builds are far better late game. This is also more noticeable due to an increase in leveling speed in the past few years and better gear options. All these small buffs and qol things ultimately add up to a point where 9/10 times I rather have my lvl 30 character dex based. I can easily gear dex AND for some external source like divine might or just pump my str to not ever worry about carrying things. I'd only play str based if the concept needs an armor and muscle and in that case, I will have fun with my current options but I will know that my build falls off lategame compared to dex variations. That's all.

[godhand-]

Comparing apr and damage alone is vacuum.

I cannot agree more, However i want to expand on this to include 90% hypothetical build discussions that happen on the forums.
So much of the conceptual discussion that happens exists in the vacuum of hypothetical land, 1vs1 blah blah and the reality never plays out like that. random number Jesus makes fools of all builds. Gems of nullification sell for less than 10k. Breach wands are a dime a dozen. You can run away from a true strike potion.

I used to belong to the hypothetical spreadsheet camp, where in a bubble its just numbers vs numbers and the highest number wins. But even as mentioned earlier in the thread, the following logic was used (and i'm paraphrasing) "arena not being a good example because its close quarters and suits x build". Guess what, There are so many unique situations in this game EXTERNAL to building that will change the course of a fight. Maybe you're running away from a truestrike and you get caught on one of those invisible ledges or walls. Maybe you're an archer whos build is "trash" because your AC sucks, But guess what, You know how to archer and have the higher ground and positioning, where the opponent has a terrible pathing opportunity to get to you.
Just a few examples.

I really need to stop getting involved in these discussions, because i should know better after a decade of arelith that people are always going to have something to complain about with regards to builds.

I guess i just don't want to see what happens with all other games happen to arelith.... In games like leagues or wow or whatever, people complain about whats in in the meta because they are losing to it and haven't spent the time to, without sounding rude, Git gud.
And if the noise is loud enough, they will be "balanced" and lose any resemblance of uniqueness or originality, and the game becomes dull.

One of the things i love about this game is its variety of ways to achieve ANYTHING you want, And there are many ways to do it, Some, stronger than others, and thats OKAY!!! I've made min-max builds that can solo all pve content, i've played rangermonks that destroy errythang, but i've also played characters whos entire build was focused on the roleplay they brought to the table, skills and other abilities that seem gimmicky and a waste of time. They are all viable.

But, i promise you this, there is a counter to everything, and if you don't know how to stop something, you just don't know the answer yet.
But maybe that counter is weak in a number of other areas, so people will write it off as "trash tier".

That doesn't mean the counter doesn't exist. Balance exists in this game if you're willing to look for it, or play it. And you know whats funny about that idea? I've played PvP builds designed to counter the "in-meta" powerhouses of the moment, and levelled it up and then never actually combatted that build.

Anyway, i'm out because i've triggered myself by being here.

Also, see my signature. I am wrong. Prove me right.

[Jencent]

That doesn't mean the counter doesn't exist.

But not all builds can be easily countered. And most important: You can hard-try to kill special build, when another player which is playing on that build will casually defend himself (And maybe will have still good chance to survive).