Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

[Salasker]

After reading over and thinking about it, I'm going to come down on the 'No' side, as it sounds (as has been said before) like a way for those that don't have points in Bluff/Perform to get a free -disguise mechanic without investment. Yes, you'll need to have a 'costume' to do so, but even now, the meta-gaming that goes on with -disguise seems (by all accounts) to be rampant. Adding another layer to it looks like it would just cause more of the same with nothing but OOC hard feelings all around.

I do think it would be an interesting mechanic for polymorphed/shapechanged characters, or perhaps make it only come into effect when someone has spent the points to become decent at disguising themselves in the first place. It takes some skill to cover up EVERY part of your body so that, even with the exertions of running/fighting/mining, the complete covering won't disturb some part of said covering or have a lock of hair come loose.

Lastly, expect a chorus of re-level requests from those that did put a bunch of skill points into Bluff or Perform so that they can redistribute. Even if it's a DC hit, there will likely be a bunch of people that want the 'free' disguise ability this represents. (And, as has been said, if the DC for cover to be broken is too low, then it becomes a useless feature to begin with.)

I think it's a cool idea, but the potential for abuse outweighs the benefits it brings, in my opinion.

Suggestion: Make it automatic for polymorph/shapechange and add some generic, 'normal' models that people can choose, like elf, human, dwarf, halfling etc.?

[Aradin]

I want to echo what several others have said: despite this being a neat idea, I think it's likely this will devolve into a world of meta-y "Take off that headgear or I'm arresting you!" In a world where the mechanics say a fully plated knight is as suspicious as a mysterious hooded figure we may enter a new age of paranoia.
Truth be told I'm not sure the disguise system needs a new element to it like this at all. It seems fine where it is.

That all said, I recognize that a cover system *could* end up being a fun RP tool that enriches the server. I'm just skeptical that, in practice, it will work as intended.

[Tyrantos]

I say go for it. Looking forward to be able to use full cover on a monster race to sneak about.

[Gouge Away]

I want to echo what several others have said: despite this being a neat idea, I think it's likely this will devolve into a world of meta-y "Take off that headgear or I'm arresting you!" In a world where the mechanics say a fully plated knight is as suspicious as a mysterious hooded figure we may enter a new age of paranoia.
Truth be told I'm not sure the disguise system needs a new element to it like this at all. It seems fine where it is.

That all said, I recognize that a cover system *could* end up being a fun RP tool that enriches the server. I'm just skeptical that, in practice, it will work as intended.

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that at all. Overreacting and overzealousness is guaranteed and being accosted by a PC guard is fun on occasion but (at least my) tolerance to play along when they're overdoing it is not unlimited, especially when it's a technicality or you're even not up to anything. It's a good experiment I suppose and maybe it will work out but I hope the enforcement aspect is monitored as much as the people using it to get away with something.

[OleBlighty]

Only way I could see this being acceptable is to then add an item that would grant characters with low Spot a massive bonus, something with the commensurate numbers to attempt to break the DC.

[strong yeet]

I want to echo what several others have said: despite this being a neat idea, I think it's likely this will devolve into a world of meta-y "Take off that headgear or I'm arresting you!" In a world where the mechanics say a fully plated knight is as suspicious as a mysterious hooded figure we may enter a new age of paranoia.
Truth be told I'm not sure the disguise system needs a new element to it like this at all. It seems fine where it is.

That all said, I recognize that a cover system *could* end up being a fun RP tool that enriches the server. I'm just skeptical that, in practice, it will work as intended.

Agreed quite a lot with this post. Sorry to be so negative, but I simply don't think that this idea will end well.

[ReverentBlade]

I feel, that regardless of the merits of the system itself, that it is dev time being devoted to entirely the wrong direction and paradigm. Arelith is a land of relatively low consequences, accountability, and repercussions for behavior and IC decisions. We need to be making delivering consequences easier, not harder. Make -investigate more powerful, have the NPCs give me names and not generic lists of character stats that are largely useless. If I've spent time with a character, let me recognize their specific tracks or scents. Let me investigate quarter doors that have been picked open for real clues that can lead to consequences. Have fixtures leave drag or tool marks when they are stolen. Have crimes leave behind hairs or clothing threads I can give to a diviner to scry.

There is so much that could be improved in this department that adding even more options to be a pain in the Snuggybear without repercussion is very frustrating to me.

[Ork]

The Surface is one giant hegemony of "good", giving more tools to rein in the evil/shady acts will only continue their inevitable push toward some dystopially boring second-life sim.

[ReverentBlade]

Not remotely true.

[Might-N-Magic]

1. Disguised tag needs to get gone already.
2. Spot is becoming far too strong by doing too many things, Listen is starting to suck more and more.

I've always been of the mind that the old phrase "it takes a thief to catch a thief and a con man to catch a con" should reign. Liars to catch liars and Bluff/Perform to catch liars and break disguises. Everybody and their dog is buying tons of Spot because Spot is a skill of half a dozen functions and is nothing more than a big magic bullet that kills far more than one skill should.

[Irongron]

Well, the time has come for my extremely long response here. Reading the feedback has been great, and apologies if what follows is both far too longwinded and wanders across a number of different related topics.

I shall try to use subheadings to make it more readable.

So, I asked for this to go in feedback before going live, because for me the update raised a number of red flags, all of which have been presented above. First and foremost is...

HELMET POLICE

I've been around long enough to recall when this was the norm in Cordor, and having people constantly standing around asking people to remove their helms became tiring, and was especially frustrating in regard to new players, who often didn't know better. Now, the reason for this being quite so annoying isn't because of the request being made, but because of what followed, which naturally, was...murder.

Now the obsession with PvP is something that isn't new to Arelith, but that it is so often the first recourse, taking the place of roleplay. Criminal RP can be fun, in theory, but when the first reaction is to kill...it is kind of less so.

So what we end up with is, is PCs hanging around the settlement entrance telling people to remove their helms...or die?

Well this lends itself to yet more PvP, because it cuts both ways. If you're a level 30 epic PvP obsessed player, all you need to do to provoke a fight is to wander around in a helm. It because the ultimate tool to force a fight, in place of any kind of worthwhile narrative. And if you're a level 8 player who's just joined the guard and get posted to gate duty? Yeah, good luck with that.

All of this might sound needlessly cynical, and indeed it is, but unfortunately I used to see this happen quite frequenty, and as I've learned in the past my saying something on the forums doesn't necessarily mean it will be followed in game. For instance when pirate tattoos were introduced , I tried to make it clear this was akin to gang tattoos and sailor tatoos, and should not be used in lieu of roleplay in regard to judging guilt - that this was intended as something to foster RP, not as grounds for immediately exiling/killing people. We all saw how that went...

So when players say here that they worry about a tiresome new norm of helmet police? I know exactly where they are coming from.

Now that doesn't mean I'm against this update, just concerned by that aspect of it. I see more points to cover here, as the disguise system goes so much further.

DISGUISE vs CONCEALMENT

One thing I love about this update is it makes a difference between concealing one's identity, and actively trying to project a different persona. Putting on a cowl to mug someone on a dark corner should be a world apart from donning a fake moustache, outrageous accent and fooling one's way into the Radiant Heart. Arelith was treating these both the same, and I really disliked it. Being able to EASILY conceal one's face in order to commit crime or evade the authorities, really is absolutely fine with me. It shouldn't just be epic character with a gazillion ranks in bluff that are able to do this.

I like criminality roleplay, and I like that being more possible, were it not for the immediate 'I KILL YOU!' reaction we are so used to seeing on Arelith that I mentioned above.

I believe this aspect of this update is what makes it so popular with those that thinking about it. Its is far more realistic, and thus immersive. The coder responsible has done an excellent job, not only with complex coding, but in creating an entirely sensible system.

But for all of that, we can't ignore what I think is the next topic raised in relation to this - the OOC nature of disguise, the tags, and just how used we all are to seeing just who everyone is.

I KNOW WHO YOU ARE

One thing I loved about the launch of the Enhanced Edition is that it allowed us to create a new user name every time we log in, even playing the same character, this was entirely new, and potentially game changing - beforehand you could immediately see just who a players was by clicking on their portrait.

Arelith is a small community, and to some extent still exists in a kind of high-school mentality, at least in some quarters. Players can be way too focused on OOC identities, and all kinds of popularity/reputation/clique dynamics are fed by that. It's not all bad of course - the very existence of that community is part of the appeal for many players.

After the launch of EE, because it was possible, I seriously considered assigning every player a random 9 digit identity each time they logged in, so it would be nearly impossible to metagame who else was playing, aside from their characters. Honestly? I still like that, but I know that we are so used to that not being the case, and to the subtle merging of our OCC and IC identities. I'm not wild about it, and change my login name pretty much every time I play, but for many? That player tag means a lot.

This ties into disguise, as the tags (along with the player name) mean that we make it really quite optional as to whether we go along with it. By using them we directly invite people to metagame, which they often do.

The whole 'why use tags at all?' thing really doesn't work though, because our models are too basic. It would be entirely simple to disguise oneself as another PC to such an extent that we'd have to be suspicious of absolutely everyone, and it would be chaos. It is also worth noting that in reality? You simple cannot use disguise to pass yourself effectively as someone else to ANYONE THAT KNOWS THEM. It's absurd, even in a fantasy setting.

So we are used to to seeing who people are, and quite simply - it is disarming when we can't. We are not just interacting as our IC personas, but as members of a community. Whatever one thinks of it, I am convinced that some players simply do not like not being able to see who others are, and will immediately go to extreme lengths to find out.

Really a character that is concealing their identity should be able to pass unnoticed - after all, we should not all be looking very closely at everyone. In reality? As soon as most players notice anyone doing this, many will run around in a state of agitation trying to confront them. The irony is that concealing that bit of OOC identity leads to more metagaming, not less...

MY OUTLANDISH IDEA FOR IDENTITY & DISGUISE

I'm going to take a moment here to explain my vision for disguise that I presented to the team some time ago. It did not prove popular as it would have very much changed the dynamic of the community, but as we're talking about the shortfalls of these systems, which this update highlights, I'm going to let you know what was, for a while, the alternative.

In this system all characters would have an empty name field, literally nobody (at first) would have a name floating above their head. What you would see, in game, is just the models running around.

As you played and interacted or observed other characters, that name would be revealed. In effect you would only see the names of those you knew. Strangers, would be...strangers.

One positive side effect here would be that new chararacters would be recognisable as strangers (having no name) and thus established players would interact with them more. 'Getting to know people' would have a reward.

Disguise too would be reworked, and have two functions.

Bluff would be used to remove the name, so you would not be recognised by those that already knew you. Penetrating the disguise would reveal the name.

For actual aliases, we would have disguise kits. Quite large objects, that would randomly generate a name (using NWN's function for that), when applied. No tags. You could use the disguise to be someone else, to begin a new life with that identity. You wouldn't be able to steal anyone's else's identity, and penetrating disguise would reveal all the other names you currently know them as (they'd all be given equal weight, you wouldn't necessarily see their 'true' name if you'd never revealed it via interaction.) Aliases would be governed by perform.

Anyway, that was an aside, which is FAR more extreme than the current suggestion.


In conclusion them (at least for now), this update touches on a really contentious area of Arelith, and one in which there are no easily solutions. This is really popular with some, far less with others, and will be mostly judged in how it affects existing behaviour. In a perfect world? I'd be fully behind it, in reality? I share a great many of the concerns being raised.

I will be approving this, but inviting the developer to make changes based upon what they've read here, to hopefully allay some concerns.

Finally I want to address one small thing I read here:

I feel, that regardless of the merits of the system itself, that it is dev time being devoted to entirely the wrong direction and paradigm.

On Arelith, developers work on what they want to. They can take a cue form approved suggestions, or work on their ideas. It is part of the reason we have such a motivated team, and so many updates. Sure, things need to get approved by myself, but development itself is NOT dictated, and never will be.

[NauVaseline]

Not remotely true.

LOL
unfortunately it is totally true

MY OUTLANDISH IDEA FOR IDENTITY & DISGUISE

I'm going to take a moment here to explain my vision for disguise that I presented to the team some time ago. It did not prove popular as it would have very much changed the dynamic of the community, but as we're talking about the shortfalls of these systems, which this update highlights, I'm going to let you know what was, for a while, the alternative.

In this system all characters would have an empty name field, literally nobody (at first) would have a name floating above their head. What you would see, in game, is just the models running around.

As you played and interacted or observed other characters, that name would be revealed. In effect you would only see the names of those you knew. Strangers, would be...strangers.

One positive side effect here would be that new chararacters would be recognisable as strangers (having no name) and thus established players would interact with them more. 'Getting to know people' would have a reward.

Disguise too would be reworked, and have two functions.

Bluff would be used to remove the name, so you would not be recognised by those that already knew you. Penetrating the disguise would reveal the name.

For actual aliases, we would have disguise kits. Quite large objects, that would randomly generate a name (using NWN's function for that), when applied. No tags. You could use the disguise to be someone else, to begin a new life with that identity. You wouldn't be able to steal anyone's else's identity, and penetrating disguise would reveal all the other names you currently know them as (they'd all be given equal weight, you wouldn't necessarily see their 'true' name if you'd never revealed it via interaction.) Aliases would be governed by perform.

Anyway, that was an aside, which is FAR more extreme than the current suggestion.

Actually I think this is an awesome idea, but how would a player go about reporting someone who no-RP ganked them in a dungeon when they don't have a character name and the griefer could theoretically avoid exposing their current player handle to the victim? You'd have to code it so the current player handle of whoever kills you is automatically sent to the killed PC's log

[Nekonecro]

Slightly off on a tangent but I'm curious to know how one would even code the idea you have there for making names appear as you get to know them?

[Irongron]

Slightly off on a tangent but I'm curious to know how one would even code the idea you have there for making names appear as you get to know them?

We already track interactions. A lot of data, but entirely possible.

[Zaphiel]

MY OUTLANDISH IDEA FOR IDENTITY & DISGUISE

I'm going to take a moment here to explain my vision for disguise that I presented to the team some time ago. It did not prove popular as it would have very much changed the dynamic of the community, but as we're talking about the shortfalls of these systems, which this update highlights, I'm going to let you know what was, for a while, the alternative.

In this system all characters would have an empty name field, literally nobody (at first) would have a name floating above their head. What you would see, in game, is just the models running around.

As you played and interacted or observed other characters, that name would be revealed. In effect you would only see the names of those you knew. Strangers, would be...strangers.

One positive side effect here would be that new chararacters would be recognisable as strangers (having no name) and thus established players would interact with them more. 'Getting to know people' would have a reward.

Disguise too would be reworked, and have two functions.

Bluff would be used to remove the name, so you would not be recognised by those that already knew you. Penetrating the disguise would reveal the name.

For actual aliases, we would have disguise kits. Quite large objects, that would randomly generate a name (using NWN's function for that), when applied. No tags. You could use the disguise to be someone else, to begin a new life with that identity. You wouldn't be able to steal anyone's else's identity, and penetrating disguise would reveal all the other names you currently know them as (they'd all be given equal weight, you wouldn't necessarily see their 'true' name if you'd never revealed it via interaction.) Aliases would be governed by perform.

I loved this idea to be honest.

[Amnesy]

I love that approach as well,

And you could add a system similar to for learning languages but instead of languages, it tracks familiarity against PC 'true' name.
+for speaking close, PC mentioning their true name in close vicinity, trading, and an option to -reveal_identity to someone.

[Drowboy]

All of this might sound needlessly cynical, and indeed it is, but unfortunately I used to see this happen quite frequenty, and as I've learned in the past my saying something on the forums doesn't necessarily mean it will be followed in game. For instance when pirate tattoos were introduced , I tried to make it clear this was akin to gang tattoos and sailor tatoos, and should not be used in lieu of roleplay in regard to judging guilt - that this was intended as something to foster RP, not as grounds for immediately exiling/killing people. We all saw how that went...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but:
If you're as unhappy with the tags being lcd rp-to-pvp automators as everyone else, why not change it? None of us are in a better position to do so.

That said, I recognize it's a player culture problem, as the server ages and the players age and splinter further into let's say enthusiastic pvpers, middle-grounders, and what people have been calling tea party rpers since 2005 or so- the gap between these groups becoming worse, or at least seeming that way, so eventually it might become an issue of altering or clarifying the rules, especially if it's starting to bleed into "we can't do this because it will lead to low effort essentially-griefing," no?

[wulfburk]

I loved this idea to be honest.

Same!

[Kalopsia]

I loved this idea to be honest.

Same!

+1
Would love to see this happen.

[AstralUniverse]

In IG's idea, I can imagine a situation where you meet a stranger that one time, you have a short but meaningful RP and the next time you pass by them on the road and definitely remember them, you (on both ends) still lack the name tags, and you both keep walking. Sad.

[Nevrus]

Add a system to pm a player with -nick NameText to change their name display to you and make them memorable prior to true name and we're golden.

[Inordinate]

On the OP:

Seems fine, though I agree with ReverentBlade's post regarding needing to add more tools to help aid in countering this kind of system being layered on top of disguises. The system as-is just skews Spot to be even more valuable. Maybe introduce a Perception skill that is a combination of the two skills (that you can't put points into directly) that is meant for beating disguises/cover? It would allow Listen to contribute heavily towards beating disguise/cover checks so it's not left in the water but let invested spotters still do their thing as normal.


On IronGron's post:
I echo Drowboy's point on 'changing the culture'. A forum post by itself doesn't work but actual enforcement/guidance does. If we're collectively afraid of how the community treats some of these things then why accept that?

As for your wild and quite interesting system proposal I see a really stark contrast between some of your comments and the system in itself, namely:

I've been around long enough to recall when this was the norm in Cordor, and having people constantly standing around asking people to remove their helms became tiring, and was especially frustrating in regard to new players, who often didn't know better. Now, the reason for this being quite so annoying isn't because of the request being made, but because of what followed, which naturally, was...murder.

Arelith is a small community, and to some extent still exists in a kind of high-school mentality, at least in some quarters. Players can be way too focused on OOC identities, and all kinds of popularity/reputation/clique dynamics are fed by that. It's not all bad of course - the very existence of that community is part of the appeal for many players.

So we are used to to seeing who people are, and quite simply - it is disarming when we can't. We are not just interacting as our IC personas, but as members of a community. Whatever one thinks of it, I am convinced that some players simply do not like not being able to see who others are, and will immediately go to extreme lengths to find out.

Really a character that is concealing their identity should be able to pass unnoticed - after all, we should not all be looking very closely at everyone. In reality? As soon as most players notice anyone doing this, many will run around in a state of agitation trying to confront them. The irony is that concealing that bit of OOC identity leads to more metagaming, not less...

Your outlandish idea has a ton of potential to be very cool if you went forward with it but the lack of any strong push to reel in some of the more brutish behavior you outlined will just make it worse and add jet fuel to the paranoia everyone has about other people already.

[Diegovog]

MY OUTLANDISH IDEA FOR IDENTITY & DISGUISE

I'm going to take a moment here to explain my vision for disguise that I presented to the team some time ago. It did not prove popular as it would have very much changed the dynamic of the community, but as we're talking about the shortfalls of these systems, which this update highlights, I'm going to let you know what was, for a while, the alternative.

In this system all characters would have an empty name field, literally nobody (at first) would have a name floating above their head. What you would see, in game, is just the models running around.

As you played and interacted or observed other characters, that name would be revealed. In effect you would only see the names of those you knew. Strangers, would be...strangers.

One positive side effect here would be that new chararacters would be recognisable as strangers (having no name) and thus established players would interact with them more. 'Getting to know people' would have a reward.

This would be amazing!!


Just addressing something you said. I highly disagree PvP kills criminal RP. Killing, conflict, aggression, action is what drives it forward. That much is clear in other RP games. What does kill criminal RP is higher consequences to your actions. In Arelith we are encouraged to take death seriously and we have an obligation to make other people have fun through our actions and once you're a known criminal you're done. There has been attempts at making criminal mobster "families" on the surface in the past but ultimately they have to fail and things have to go back to the normal status quo.
The only way to have a tangible criminality in Arelith is to be less realistic. That means a paladin and a thief have to be able to interact and have fun with one-another RPing. The paladin will have the mentality "step out of the line and I'll get you!" and then once the thief is caught doing something wrong and deal with whatever consequences there are, both will be enjoying and laughing in Cordor's square again. Right now, as it is, once a criminal is found, there is a crusade to find all associates and ruin their reputation, to make sure they are not accepted in any settlements, that every organization know they are evil and it goes back to being good vs evil all over again. Right now the only viable way to play criminal is by yourself or through secret societies and even then it's just about gathering information and infiltrating and not actually doing any crime.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Irongron that is brilliant and I want it and you're awesome.

To touch on the other side of the whole debate, as someone who plays good character, I WANT to be mistrusted. I want characters to have to prove themselves. There's a whole avenue of roleplay that is always stunted because of how this whole disguise/cover/tag/blahblahblah works.

[mjones3]

I've been around long enough to recall when this was the norm in Cordor, and having people constantly standing around asking people to remove their helms became tiring, and was especially frustrating in regard to new players, who often didn't know better. Now, the reason for this being quite so annoying isn't because of the request being made, but because of what followed, which naturally, was...murder....

....I like criminality roleplay, and I like that being more possible, were it not for the immediate 'I KILL YOU!' reaction we are so used to seeing on Arelith that I mentioned above.

As someone who was one of those guards back then I can't agree more with the dislike of having to resort to killing. But the limitations of the game back then, more so than now, and what's available currently will still always lead do that.

Subdual offered an option, hell you can even tie someone up now and I love that this is a thing. But they can always force you to have to either kill or let them go, its a very one way street for guard RP. I understand fully why more options aren't available, it would be hellishly easy to abuse, or too much work to vet and watch every player who would be a guard.

My major concern with the current update is it completely denies height, weight, posture, and many other things that are a major part of a proper disguise. The same way I can recognize my family and friends in a hoody just by how they walk, and their basic body shape from behind. if tossing a robe on, wearing a choker, and a hood is all it takes to get an unbeatable disguise why do folks bother getting 80+ points in skills, feats, and gear to be completely unknown? Yes they won't be suspicious, but free reign to commit any crime without anyone ever being able to tell who is doing something in a relatively high magic world seems like over kill.

Why not offer certain bonuses for people with divination foci, or favored enemy against the base race? Something that breaks through the outer shell of "full cover" because you know that "extra fat" fully robed elf is wearing padding because of how quick they are on their feet. Something at all to not give disguised and covered players a free pass with no recourse.