The current dex meta, especially monk.

[jomonog]

I personally dont think the AB/AC/damage numbers are that far out of wack as between dex and strength but I agree there is an inbalance in the availability of good epic feats. Blinding speed and e-dodge are big cookies for dex to get. Strength doesnt really get anything good because over crit is trash and dev crit doesnt exist.

Would like to see over crit and dev crit reworked into something useful.

Just an idea, but if the concern is dex builds jumping into IE and fishing for 20s then how about a feat for strength builds in place of over crit/dev crit (so with gated strength requirements) that scales up AB/damage everytime an enemy misses an attack roll and that unwinds on hit?

[garrbear758]

So, just a few notes.

1. We are aware of this. We are working on changes to bring some more variety into the meta, but as xerah said, it'll be multiple small changes over time rather than huge ones.
2. A burst meta is not the direction we want to go. Id much rather change or add something to make str builds more survivable instead of making them put out more damage. Therefore, i would be very hesitant to make drastic changes to whelming crit. The problem lies in how to do that without also buffing the few good str builds like barb wm.
While I do have some ideas for the above that I'll be talking over with the dev team, please keep the feedback coming. I'm not above shamelessly stealing yalls ideas if I see something good in here.

[Arigard]

I think it's a real balance between making str builds able to actually do something other than stand there for 10 mins relentlessly (on a 2% chance) swinging versus extreme dex AC builds, versus buffing AB to the point that the mid tier builds get effected.

The issue as with most balance is the extremes (and trying to be objective here), in your mid range of builds (i.e that is the casual player, not tweaked to the max etc), or simply builds that cannot hit those excess high numbers, the danger is turning str into a meat blender one round machine and I don't think anyone sees a good outcome with that. It's just as little fun to be unable to do anything against an opponent as it is to get killed in 6 seconds or less.

So I'll be interested to see what is thought up and how the issue is addressed without turning anything with less than 60-65ac and edodge into a smear on the pavement.

[Might-N-Magic]

While I doubt some of the specious claims presented here (actually having those numbers myself and not being able to solo maur for example (everything rolls 20s fairly often enough)), this may shock you but...

There's always going to be something perceived as "the best."

And no matter what you do, someone will complain about it.

What do you plan to do, then? Nerf everything so we're all human fighters in the end? Trust me, someone will start complaining about human fighters with different stats then.

[Gouge Away]

I wonder if a melee CON meta could work. Like increase damage reduction for fighters, defenders and barbarians (but not warlocks and druids) to create bruisers who deal moderate damage but can take endless punishment.

Right now EDR is enticing but not really worth building around.. but maybe it could be.

[Arigard]

While I doubt some of the specious claims presented here (actually having those numbers myself and not being able to solo maur for example (everything rolls 20s fairly often enough)), this may shock you but...

It's completely possible to solo Maurs on the right race and dex build. No tricks outside of not dragging both bosses at once, face tank everything. Is it as easy, or prevalent as soloing illithids, or Abazuur? No, but it's still possible.

[Anomandaris]

Everything Arigard says is pretty much true. Arigard is a mechanical wizard and phenomenal builder. That said, I'm kind of anti-nerf across the board at this point. It's a little demoralizing and tiring to have the character you've invested so much into chipped away at over time to become less and less useful. I have spent a lot of time investing in my present PC (a dex build) and it's not going to meaningfully improve the server if I have a little less AC or mechanical power. I don't have a monk dip to be fair, I'm a rogue SD and frankly my AC isn't super high and my Ab is pretty low. It's pretty alpha strike oriented and if I have to put on expertise I'm not landing any hits on anyone. It is powerful though and definitely has a lot of utility. That said I'm also complete murder bait for a whole range of builds in a lot of circumstances.

The server has its imbalances, but all in all it's fine. You can play a lot of different builds and have a great time and still make an impact. People who REALLY care about the nuance of meta and mechanical power are going to gravitate towards certain builds anyways, and there will always be powerbuilds. There's an expression that holds a TON of wisdom "if it ain't broke don't fix it." And while it may not be perfect it's certainly not broken.

I think dex builds are super strong and str are def on the whole weaker. However any substantive improvements to str builds will make them terrifying 1 round meatgrinders (which some already against a lot of builds). There are several extremely strong str builds that you can't really avoid making monsters if you change str across the board. Instead I think finding ways to increase str build utility or add playstyle diversity without directly changing their raw power would be the way to go.

The issue isn't even really str vs. dex. There are plenty of builds which are weaker but offer utility in other contexts. They may not be top tier PvP builds but they have incredible commercial potential or RP potential like crazy bluff, quarterbreaking, crafting, heailng. Do these all need to be on-par with the top tier dex build in combat too? It's just impossible and frankly going to annoy people as you mess with their characters all the time.

Please don't just keep nerfing Dex PC's because they're "powerful." Part of the fun is the rock, paper, scissor swingy burst potential. That's always going to punish the less savvy because if you don't know how to counter it or build well you're gonna get cleaned real quick. Dex builds have counters, several.

This problem won't ever go away. There is no perfect balance. Unless something is TOTALLY out of control please just leave it be so people can enjoy their characters and not worry about them being made weaker with nerfs because some people don't like it. I'd really like if we could focus efforts and discussions around features that could add "narrative functionality" rather than mechanical tweaks. It has too much the feel of a MOBA balance team rather than an RP server when that's so much of the focus.

TLDR: Yah dex is stronger, so what? It's fine. If you care that much about the meta and powerbuilding make a dex pc with a monk dip or a wild mage. If not, play one of the multitude of perfectly viable, powerful builds (Spellswords, barb/wm, Str SD, Caster Shaman, Favored Soul, AA, Shadowmage, Bard/PDK combo's, Sorcadin/BG/Sorc, Wild Dwarf Barb and on and on). Otherwise play what interests you and don't worry so much if someone is more combat effective than you. It may be relevant here and there, but it shouldn't dictate your experience.

-End Rant

[Diegovog]

Although dex builds have been a refreshing change over the yeeeaars of str WM meta, it seriously need some balancing. Monks are like DD, it's so easy to mess the balancing up and become straigtht annoying to play against. Right now monk is in a very strong spot, 30monk or 26/4, 20/10 and monk dips are all working really really well. Dex diviners too.

Some ideas:
Rework devastating critical so it's a +4ab/+4dmg (not multiplied in crit dmg) that can't be taken with barbarian levels on the character.

Epic strike: Opposite of epic dodge, the warrior will always hit the first attack and will never be a critical hit nor activate imbues.

Taunting Shout: Enemies (both hostile PCs and NPCs) in a medium radius are forced to attack the person for 3 rounds and all toggles (including IE) are turned off from the enemy.

[-XXX-]

We seem to have a million ways to build a fancy-schmancy swordsman, but there appears to be only one or two correct ways to build any of the caster classes.

The meta favors melee disproportionately - both in options and in PvP performance.


There's only a handful of the vetted builds that are actually fun to play or level up.
The most powerful ones come at a price of restrictive RP.

[Nevrus]

I got my noggin working again on this problem the more that I think about it.

So, I don't think the problem is Barbarian. Barbarian's various bonuses and silly rages make them stronk already. They also get DR and are rewarded for investing in Con.

The problem also isn't paladin. They can make lots of AB happen with buffs- Holy Sword and Divine Favor alone are pretty swingy. Not to mention Divine Shield/Might, which gives them an out from the low AC crowd.

The problem is Fighter.

Fighter is the bread within which most Strength-heavy builds live. It's also pretty passive in its benefits and doesn't offer the survivability or AB potential of its strengthy counterparts.

So, let's add some survivability and offense potential in an active way.

There was a suggestion for combat maneuvers that got a lot of back-and-forth on it, which I am necroing in the middle of this other thread in order to do one thing and one thing only:

Shamelessly rip off 5E.

So! Here's the idea: We give fighters some new toys beyond the 4/6 dip range.

Level 10: Second Wind (Swift/Half-Round Action)
The fighter recovers 5 + 1/2 Con Mod hit points per fighter level. Shares a ten minute cooldown with Lay on Hands and Wholeness of Body. (LoH and WoB now also share a cooldown, just in caseys. Pick your best one.)

Level 15: Indomitability (Free Action)
The fighter steels themselves to take blows, gaining 20% immunity to all physical damage. Lasts one round per two fighter levels. (Duration negotiable, a flat minute might do it.) Improves to 30% at Fighter Level 21 and 40% at Fighter Level 28. Only useable while wearing heavy armor. Eight minute cooldown.

Level 20: Action Surge (Free Action)
The fighter presses in to push beyond their limits. For five rounds they gain one additional attack per round. Ten minute cooldown. (Edited further suggestion: Cooldown reduced to 5 minutes at fighter level 27 to pat the dippies on the head and duration increased to one turn at fighter level 30 to make pures feel like beasts).

Level 25: Precise Strikes (Combat Mode, exclusive with Power Attack/IE)
The fighter focuses on landing hits at the expense of power. All damage they deal is reduced by 50% but they gain +5 (Soft) Attack Bonus. (Possibly give this one to Barbs at 24 but make it not work while raging. Gives non-WM barbs a better shot at tricksy encounters while not enabling their devastating damage. They would only get +3 over rage AB anyway.)

Eh?

[BaRKyy]

Just for the record, a human pure monk with 19 starting dex and 16 wis finishes off with 49 AB. And I'll say this here - there is no 'dex meta'. There is the monk dip meta, and the divine dip meta, and it is due to the change from UMD to lore, which is fine. The server must adjust as it always has. Right now your choice of playing on Arelith is either playing a shotgun strength build, or any dex build with a divine or monk dip added in to net god tier AC. The reason why monk dip generally wins out for dex is because of the windup, the time fully buffed, and the result of that downtime mid fight. The strength damage difference, and the divine damage difference, do not make up for the sheer unhittable beast that is most dex monk dips when they're hitting you with 9-10 APR.

The issue with dex is not divine dex, nor was it nearly as big of an issue as some people said it was, though the blinding speed nerf was warranted. It is wholly monk dips and what you get from the smallest of dips. Nerf monk dips. To go pure dex without a monk or div dip is basically worthless as the AC you net will be similar to what someone in plate has. You're forced to wear cloth, but your AC can't ever match what monk/div dips are pushing out due to three levels in the class. This is combined with the fact that gearing three to four stats is not difficult on Arelith anymore. Monk gear has made it trivial on some of my characters, including my old 20 monk, 5 fighter, 5 COT build which maxed STR/DEX/CON/WIS/CHA all simultaneously, save for a slight deficit on con.

Here is what you get from a rogue dip, the most common dip before the lore change:

6 AC from tumble.
15 UMD for access to wands, which are in most cases outclassed by scrolls due to the lore changes.
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Extra 2d6 damage from sneak attacks.

Here's what you get from a monk dip:

6 AC from tumble.
8 - 12 AC depending on the build. For rangers it is 10 AC, so 16 extra AC in total.
Cleave
Evasion
Flurry of blows (Extra APR at the cost of -2 AB)
Deflect Arrows (This is a bit of a joke, to be honest, but it's useful if you're attempting to dodge arrows from mobs under level 4)
Still Mind
UBAB (Arguably almost worth a dip on its own)

If the way to go is to nerf, here are some ways to actually nerf monk dips, though this thread is asking for strength buffs and that's fair, this can still be here regardless.

Light ones are:

- Move flurry of blows to later on in monk progression. (To level seven)
- Cap the added APR from monk full stop to monk majority (AKA 16 or more levels, this is not hardcoded but it does require a workaround)
- Remove UBAB entirely from anyone below 6 in monk. (Not so bad. Monk dip becomes a fighter 'dip' effectively, may be hardcoded. Not sure if possible)
- Limit monk gear to requiring more than a dip to use.

Heavy ones are:

- Limit wis mod to AC to monk levels, meaning you need between 8 and 10 monk levels to access the most AC you can receive from monk. (With ranger needing 8 levels, spellswords generally needing 6. This is not hardcoded)
- Move evasion to level 7 (This kills the dip entirely and I'd not do this)
- Remove UBAB entirely from anyone with less than majority monk levels (Not sure if possible, probably not from my own looking into it)
- Remove UBAB from everything except unarmed
- Remove monks ability to multiclass, and in time add prestige paths that they can multiclass into in their epics.

Pure monk, as of right now, is in a good spot. You go 30 levels in monk stopping you from netting full BAB for that extra APR. Your fortitude sucks, and it may say you hit 72 AC on them but you need to remove one per five monk levels, meaning the character sheet lies, and the combat log does not. For a pure monk that's six AC less. They have no easy way of having death immunity, meaning a wizard can generally kill a pure monk with relative ease unless they're rich enough to buy death pots. They also don't have the epic feat requirements to net everything you'd want on a monk, generally having to pick two of three, blinding speed, prowess, and armor skin. All of this begs the question, though - can the bog standard WM hit a pure monk with edodge without a nat 20? Nope. To hit a pure monk in a 1v1 without rolling a nat 20 requires you to have 54 AB+, 55 if you're up against a race with +2 dex.

The devs have done a good job with pure monk, and I feel that majority monk is in a good spot too. Majority monks are not scary, they're just annoying to fight. There are many counters to fighting a pure monk, a truestrike potion more often than not does the trick.

The issue for dex being so mainstream and potent, however, is the fact that you can dip 3 levels of monk on almost any build and it will probably end up being better. Best ranged build? Arguably ranger with a monk dip. Most potent spellsword? Spellsword with a monk dip. Most potent 'mundane' melee build? Ranger with a monk dip. Best hexblade build? Hexblade with a monk dip. Best shadowdancer build currently? WM, SD, with a monk dip. Strongest battlecleric? Monk dip. Strongest shaman? Monk dip. If you do not dip divine somewhere in there, you dip monk. There are few exceptions to this, swashbuckler is one. The only other exceptions to this are the ones that inherently require cha to function, or ones the devs have gone out of their way to deal with monk synergy on a case by case basis like with the Invisible Blade class (Which ironically enough still stands to gain the most from a monk or div dip, even seeing as it itself is designed to be a dip equivalent). The devs recently nerfed monk weapons, and albeit they were good, many of the dip classes used bronze weapons anyhow. Spellswords and rangers for their +5s, meaning the nerf didn't affect the targeted audience as much as it should have.

[ReverentBlade]

The 5E fighter rips-offs above is good stuff. I like the idea of small buffs until parity is reached. There will be the endless complaints about "power creep", but guess what, every other online platform has "power creep", because its the best way to slowly balance without irritating people (nerfs suck) and dealing with rebuilds. PvE content can always be adjusted later to keep up with "power creep" if it starts getting noticeable.

[-XXX-]

Kill tumble - it heavily incentivizes dipping into or building around classes that have it as a class skill.
Its sole practical use is +6 AC and AC srems to be one of the issues right now.

[ReverentBlade]

Tumble dumps provide a vital service to server balance; they effectively narrow down the number of viable builds and multiclasses, making theorycrafting the various possibilities easier for the devs when making balance or content decisions.

Its not particularly elegant, but it works and is very ingrained at this point.

[-XXX-]

Sorry, you managed to reply before i could edit and expand:

Kill tumble - it heavily incentivizes dipping into or building around classes that have it as a class skill.
Its sole practical use is +6 AC and AC srems to be one of the issues right now.

Long story short, i think the opposite to be the case. Tumble enabling a select breed of builds to lord over any other configuration is not balance.

[ReverentBlade]

I suppose I see it differently. The community across pretty much every server that's ever existed has been making builds with tumble dumps for eighteen years, and content balanced around such. What you see as "lording over" I see as two decades of being "standard".

[Amnesy]

A few separate longshots:

-Monk AC is changed to dodge (lost on flatfooted, blinded), subject to soft cap.

-Monk get Wis to AC, but not greater than 1 per monk class level.

-Remove UBAB, make Flurry of Blows work with all monk weapons. Add Improved Flurry of Blows feat, which adds 1 more APR with even more AB penalty (reduce the penalty for unarmed fighting).

-Move Evasion to level 6 or above on all dex standard classes.

-Add feats:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Weapon_Focus
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Great ... ialization
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Power_Critical
Staggering Critical [Epic] - Arelith version: Once melee critical strike is confirmed target is flatfooted for X. Same restrictions as per knockdown. Requires heavier Fighter investment.

-WM gaining custom on crit effects with STR based saving throws instead of a multiplier increase - could be done with similar way Hexblade to promote choice. Some ideas from pathfinder: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-f ... cal-feats/

-Give epic mobs some more non-reflex spells.

-SF Abju, GSF Abju shield give 50% Damage Immunity Magic vs Missle storm spells instead of flat immunity. Add custom tower shield with X% immunity to magic damage as well.

Cheers,

[Cybren]

I suppose I see it differently. The community across pretty much every server that's ever existed has been making builds with tumble dumps for eighteen years, and content balanced around such. What you see as "lording over" I see as two decades of being "standard".

Arelith seems to be doing a lot of redesigns of the skill system. I’m not sure that this is specifically the area to address the gap between strength and dexterity builds, though, given how taxes people’s skill points already are, and the sort of changes that could bridge that gap would not qualify under “small” or “gradual” at all. (As an example of a very not small change would be only applying tumble ac in light or no armor and adding another skill that gives ac or dr in heavy/medium armor. You could theoretically hit some point of balance between those two where they offer roughly equivalent benefit, but it would be a very disruptive shakeup)

[AstralUniverse]

An idea. But it's really yet another bandaid.

Raise the str req for divine might to a degree that it doesnt hurt poor smite-dins but makes it a very terrible investment for a dexer. Maybe 16 or 17. Or rather, add a req, as there is no str req directly, except that you need 13 for power attack.

15 STR for divine might and shield would probably kill the entire dex-divine entirely - or force them to gift the 13 STR to 15, at the sacrifice of the dex or con, which has significant hits associated. This is an interesting idea. It kills the divine rogue stone cold dead, unfortunately - but that's kind of the idea. I have mixed feelings on it. COT would still exist to support the Divine Rogue.

I also heavily support making Overcrit and Devcrit worth taking. It's 2020 - NWNX hooks exist to change Dev Crit. Let's move into the future with it.

As an aside: A natural 20 is *not* an automatic critical. It is a critical threat. If you can't confirm the crit, your 20 does not crit. So the supposed scythe weilding counter to epic dodge doesn't exist.

I wouldnt know what else to nerf. The synergy between monk and rogue doesnt provide extra ac, just offense and costs another stat to invest in. Divine dip is what I consider "perfect" for a rogue right now. You have just about the right number of feats (no dual wield) to make it work and you end up with 76 imp expertise ac or 46 ab out of stealth no expertise. Just taxing that build to have more str would mean it's either impossbile to do for most races or just really hard and with low hp, etc etc. I think, again, it's a small bandaid, not a major fix to the problem, but the devs said they are more into small bandaids then big massive changes so I think it would be a step in the right direction. Even 15 str requirement.

Also, agreed, going 4 rogue, 6 paladin 20 cot as dex based looks REALLY good right now. I played this exact thing as STR not long ago and I regret it. Should have done the EXACT same build but as dex. Another reason why I think divine might should be reserved for str based characters.

Or!....
-Divine might gives 1 damage per 2 charisma mod, unless natural str is higher than 15. Duration unchanged.

[-XXX-]

I dunno, rather than tweaking numbers, I think that the issue is more complex. DEX might be an issue today, something else will pop up later on.


Fron what I can tell the general issue with regards to balance appears to be double dipping:

Chacrters have six core stats that define their strengths and weaknesses. Characters who get to double dip one of their stats to attain additional mechanical benefits end up being more powerful than those tha do not. (basic captain obvious observations here- bear with me)

Weapon finesse, zen archery, divine shield/might, monk wis ac bonus, divine grace and dark blessing all do this - most vetted builds represent merely a creative way of combining multiple double dips to achieve optimal performance.

The issue as I see it is with these dips adding up.
Rather than nerfing abilities what if there was a cap on AC, AB, hp, spells DC, DPR and saves?

That way the build ceiling would be clearly defined and double dipping wouldn't be an issue. Optimal builds would expand horizontally by being able to fill multiple roles rather than vertically by trying to stack their numbers to excess.

tl:dr - controlling the extremes might be a much more straightforward way of controlling the meta

[AstralUniverse]

I dunno, rather than tweaking numbers, I think that the issue is more complex. DEX might be an issue today, something else will pop up later on.


Fron what I can tell the general issue with regards to balance appears to be double dipping:

Chacrters have six core stats that define their strengths and weaknesses. Characters who get to double dip one of their stats to attain additional mechanical benefits end up being more powerful than those tha do not. (basic captain obvious observations here- bear with me)

Weapon finesse, zen archery, divine shield/might, monk wis ac bonus, divine grace and dark blessing all do this - most vetted builds represent merely a creative way of combining multiple double dips to achieve optimal performance.

The issue as I see it is with these dips adding up.
Rather than nerfing abilities what if there was a cap on AC, AB, hp, spells DC, DPR and saves?

That way the build ceiling would be clearly defined and double dipping wouldn't be an issue. Optimal builds would expand horizontally by being able to fill multiple roles rather than vertically by trying to stack their numbers to excess.

tl:dr - controlling the extremes might be a much more straightforward way of controlling the meta

Cant see how that would work. I mean... not going to say it wont work 100% because I dont know but I just dont see why anyone would play things except whatever has the most RP cookies and skill points. Because they reach the same combat statistics anyway, so it's a train of rangers, rogues and spellswords from first glance.

[Skibbles]

Turns out my reply is lengthy, but work is slow and I have nothing to do but ramble to ya'll so... suffer or skip. It is your choice!

TLDR: I don't think it's a DEX problem or a STR problem or a Monk problem. I think it's a Fighter problem. Also I have a bias soon outlined below.

First: I would be interesting seeing how many of these hyper-optimized characters are actually roaming around Arelith ruining game play in reality versus existing as math on the forum as a potential problem. That's not to say potential problems shouldn't be identified and politely addressed by the way.

That's mostly just a commentary towards the urgency I'm feeling in these posts.

Second: Yes they're very strong, as outlined fairly clearly above. For example the removal of the Ranger off hand AC boost with monk levels was a very fair and not a build ruining change. The devs (as they've said already) seem to be taking baby steps which is nice.

Third: My following opinion is biased as I'm playing a 27/3 Ranger monk and thoroughly enjoying it - though bear in mind I made a hefty number of "off-meta" changes to feats/loadout for RP that I'm sure most optimal players would frown at (such as refusing to use a quarterstaff even pre-nerf). That's not to say I didn't make a build that is strong, or meta if you will, but it far from 'optimal' best-in-slot tier that I would attribute to the OP's examples.

The character was originally to be a Ranger/bard, but further review of the character's background as a countryside farmer/woodsman (and the power of monk - I will totally not lie here), synergized just too well with the story and characteristics of the subrace, and made me switch last minute.

This is where my bias lies as its just a perfect fit for the character and I'd hate to see it wiped out from orbit.

My character is very strong due to the combination, and I don't need to explain why. I played a wizard for the last six years so I tested it solo against some content just to see since it's the first melee I've played for any long time in almost seven years.

PVE
---
Yes my character (mind you, it's also a vampire), can solo Illithid. It's a long and exhausting affair - especially the swarms of Ulitharid (or whatever the roper-looking tentacle rocks are I'm not at home to check). The battles often take so long to chew down the mobs that the patrolling dispel orb will find you and it will strip every ward you have (forcing you into IE which only prolongs the fight more, and further threatens you as you have to drop IE to do any lifesaving potions/wands) leading to the occasional near death panic moment as you're praying that damn thing used its final disjunction so you can start desperately wanding back up while eight mobs throw 20s at you left and right.

So can I solo Illithid? Yes. Is it worth the disappointment of finding two veins of mithril and another euklian clay at the end as well as nobody to play with alongside after the two hour trip? Nope, but then that's subjective.

Can I solo Maur? No, but I didn't try a second time with a different approach but I might be able to with some adjustments. The addendum, however, being that I can *almost* solo maur - that is until, even with every buff I can manage on my own which does in fact land me at 70 for a short time, good old Dergal is still quite willing and able to beat you into a pulp. If you ask me it was removing darkness as an option from the shadow conjuration wand that has shifted many boss fights.

Would it be worth it? I'd say no I'd rather be in Andunor putting a party together or RPing, but I'll admit there's a certain zen to soloing things in the dead hours of Aussie time when the UD has 3 other players.

So to conclude on pve in the vacuum of forum armchair math: yes the ranger/monk, even if off-optimal, is very capable. However I also know a STR blackguard that can handle illithid solo as well.

Personally I'm not really bothered if certain classes can solo content. People who like to do it are going to find a way to do it as they always have, because people are very clever.

If we kill DEX builds for PVE, then it'll just be CHA sorcerers with nothing but Great Charisma running through these same areas invisible (or maybe not, just gather everything up let fly) and then delivering one ultimate barrage of DC 60 icebergs and a hellball on the boss and then taking all the goodies. Hell, maybe they already exist.

PVP
---
After hitting 30, still in my fresh character mood to test, I had a few 1v1 bouts in the Andunor Arena.

To preface on my experience in PVP: I'm not the best, as it's usually the last option I'll ever pick in any given conflict RP so I don't regularly 'practice' on hapless victims, but I also have 20 years of experience playing the nwn engine and just in general with games where you must click buttons quickly or die, so I'm not terrible either.

My first fight was with a STR fighter/blackguard/something (who can also reach a potential 70ish ac). This was quite a fight and very fun, and ultimately ended in a draw of sorts. I kid not it must have lasted at least ten minutes (I used blinding speed twice, and supplemented with haste potions for the cool downs), which is probably the longest pvp I've ever been in - I'd also add that we were both playing very well with responsive counterplay.

I did 'win' but it was mostly due to a decision to stop using expensive or hard to find resources in order to win. We probably could have fought for another five minutes but after thirty haste potions, some heal potions, scrolls, and a dozen true strikes you start wondering if the cost is worth prolonging just a friendly bout.

Was I rocking 70+ ac on my character sheet for a few portions of the fight? Yes. Was he still landing hits? Yes, because the character sheet is generally a lie in pvp - especially when it relies on soft and fiddly ac like dex and dodge when you're moving and using items constantly.

Notably he, not a DEX monk, was generally untouchable in the same sense.

My second fight was with a STR fighter/bard. I lasted for a little while, mostly on the back foot, but was utterly destroyed. In hindsight there were things I could have done better, as always, but the fact remains that my uber DEX 70+ potential ac did not beat weak STR.

I don't pvp religiously but sometimes forum armchair pvp sounds like starting with full wards and then just swinging mindlessly until one with the highest starting number wins or one party just stands and takes it like a deer in headlights - all while the magic never runs out.

I know the engine enough to know that the character sheet AC is rarely accurate, especially in PVP, where characters are running constantly, using potions, wands, disengaging when it's unfavorable and returning when it is, and so on.

Conclusion
---
DEX builds are strong, and can be very strong if you're deliberately building something to be as broken as possible. I don't think many players are doing that to a degree where it's affecting the health of Arelith to warrant our fifth topic on DEX builds.

STR builds are strong too. STR bards, blackguards, clerics - all these classes are just as capable of reaching insane survivability while also delivering serious punishment.

Monk dips are strong. So are bard dips, and ranger dips, and rogue dips, and fighter dips, and so on. The entire reason for taking a dip class is to take on a host of massive advantages for the cost of three or four levels. In each class' dip case - they are usually strong enough to be mandatory.

Therefore I don't believe that, while the OP is ultimately correct that some of these combinations when taken to their extreme are incredibly powerful, it is really that bad unless you're specifically setting out to make it that bad.

I'm happy to see the devs taking it very slowly and incrementally. The changes thus far have been well considered and not disruptive (though I think the blinding speed change could be argued to be) - at least to my character that was affected by the first pass of changes to which I certainly won't complain.

However no I don't think an apocalyptic monk dip nerf, because some people are very good at the 'this is why we don't get nice things' game, is any more important than one for rogue, ranger, or bard.

[ReverentBlade]

Good post, especially concerning the PvP reality vs. the forum theorycrafting.

[CNS]

To help the debate, please allow me to post a damage graph as I don't think everybody apprecaites the difference AC makes.



This is the basic damage per round expectations of a standard weapon master (20/7/3) against various AC levels. This is not taking into account improved invisibility or other forms of concealment or epic dodge.

The fall off is intense once we get to very high AC numbers. At 60AC you'd expect 99 damage a round, at 65-36, at 70 and above 10. Remember the real numbers might be far lower with epic dodge (First attack missing remove 40 or so damage assuming it wasn't going to crit anyway due to the AC) and improved invisibility (Since blind fight is mandatory in melee take another 25% off).

I'm not commenting on anything right now beyond showing the impact of high AC against our 'balance stick' and there are builds that get a higher AB. I'm also aware that there are plenty of tricks and games you can play to make your opponent flat footed which removes a chunk of their AC. This is merely a representation of the default.

Not all AC points are equal every point of effective AC you add after 55 or so, makes a huge difference.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I like how we're pretending that these 70+ AC Epic Dodge DEX builds actually get hit sometimes. Maybe if you stand there flat-footed and don't carry remove blindness pots...

I also like how we're pretending that these same quarterstaff monk dip builds have low DPS and take forever to solo anything. I played one and every time I got into PVP the other person was melted in a single round, bosses typically died in a few seconds, even crit immune enemies with high DR never lasted more than a second or two against a double imbued 9-10 APR quarterstaff. You're telling me people can't do the same with Divine Might or +5 Blade Thirst that also gives DR Pen and life stealing?

Lets stop low-balling DEXers, they do not have low DPS, and they do not get hit except maybe once in a blue moon when someone rolls four twenties in a row.