Potential Upcoming Healpot Nerf - Feedback Needed

[garrbear758]

First of all, we are actively working on a solution for incentivizing strength builds. This is an unrelated change, but the changes here will impact the extent of some of the features we are looking at adding to some strength classes.

This is a bit of an involved change, but I think it would add more value than simply lowering the CL or adding a cooldown / diminishing returns. I would like to see how it's received and get some input on it before any time gets wasted on scripting something that no one likes.

1. All characters will be given a toxicity meter. This will start at 0, and it will go down 5% per tick (minimum 0).
2. Reaching 100% toxicity will knock you down for 2 rounds, with toxicity lowering 25% per round, putting you back at 50% This will mitigate meme supertank/AC builds from being able to kill someone who overdoes it on healpot spam, but allow reasonable builds to kill them.
3. All potions will give toxicity, with the amount dependent on the potion. Things like zoo pots would only give 1%, stronger pots like haste or NEP would do 10%, and healpots 20%.

Note: Numbers are just for examples. All numbers very much subject to change. I'd rather focus on the system itself at first than specific numbers, which can be worried about if this moves forward.

PROBLEMS
Problem 1: This makes the game more complicated.
-Yes, it does, but it also adds strategy. Complication for the sake of complication (looking at you, 500 different DC calculations/cooldowns) is bad, but complication that adds strategic value isn't a bad thing. This doesn't significantly raise the skill floor, but it does raise the skill ceiling.
Problem 2: Sorcs can just spam IGMS until your toxicity gets too high.
-Currently, most builds can just healpot until a sorc runs out of casts. This requires more strategy than playing a game of who runs out first, which again, is good for strategic value in pvp.
Problem 3: People will just use scrolls instead of potions.
-This is fine. Scrolls take a full round to cast rather than half a round. If someone can't out-damage spamming healing scrolls or healkits, they are probably playing a meme build anyways.

BENEFITS
1: It makes HP important again, which will hurt dexers more than str builds, as they generally have to give up more to reach the same HP.
2: It adds more strategy to combat. Deciding whether to use another NEP after a breach vs taking your chances to save for another healpot requires a lot more thought than just spamming healpots until you run out or the other person runs out of spells.
3: It doesn't increase the value of burst builds, as they would burst through healpots anyways.
4: In the future, we could potentially add class features or other mechanics that utilize this feature. Spells that raise your opponents toxicity, feats that give you bonuses at high toxicity, etc. This is way down the road though, so I don't really want to focus on that here.

This would definitely go to the PGCC first, for obvious reasons.

[The Rambling Midget]

Will Restoration play into this?

[garrbear758]

Will Restoration play into this?

I'm undecided on that, but I'm leaning towards no.

[Nekonecro]

I don't think buff pots like bull strength and NEP should play into it. That already has a counter in the form of dispells.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Good, standing there drinking healing potions while someone wails on you with a sword or kamehamehas you until they get tired is stupid and immersion breaking anyways. I don't see how this won't hurt certain STR builds just as much as DEX builds, but I trust the devs have something else up their sleeves to roll out later.

[Garvik]

This will mitigate meme supertank/AC builds from being able to kill someone who overdoes it on healpot spam, but allow reasonable builds to kill them.

If I understand that sentence correctly, is not the exact opposite the case?

A heavy AC build, especially when edodge is thrown into the mix, has less need to chug heal pots while still being able to fish for hits. The more reasonable build will generally have a greater reliance on heal pots to stay alive in that scenario, which with the proposed system will lead to the reasonable build maxing out on toxicity and knocking itself down before the AC build does. That in turn leads to the reasonable build taking even more damage that needs to be offset by even more heal pots, compounding the problem.

[Skane]

Will Con allow one to drink more potions, similar to how alcohol works?

[Drowboy]

I'd for sure leave zoo pots out of this.

Also, drunken style monk with triple toxicity max when

[Kalopsia]

Possibly relevant: Altering between potions and scrolls would let people retain a "potion only" healing rate, while effectively doubling the amount of healing before running into the toxicity cap.

[garrbear758]

Possibly relevant: Altering between potions and scrolls would let people retain a "potion only" healing rate, while effectively doubling the amount of healing before running into the toxicity cap.

This is a very good point. Thanks for bringing it up! I don't really have a solution here yet, but I'll figure something out to mitigate this, and I'm open to input of course.

[garrbear758]

Will Con allow one to drink more potions, similar to how alcohol works?

Initially I didn't plan for this, but I'm open to the idea.

[TimeAdept]

I don't think buff pots like bull strength and NEP should play into it. That already has a counter in the form of dispells.

Yeah, I'm agreed on this one. Would be especially frustrating in PvE where dispels are spammed.

[Wrips]

1: It makes HP important again, which will hurt dexers more than str builds, as they generally have to give up more to reach the same HP.

I'm not sure I agree with it this statement; thanks to being hit less, dexers can make the most of the extra hp they get from healing. Thanks to their high AC, too, they have more flexibility to decide on when to use it. A str character can easily lose the benefit of a heal potion by being hit while drinking it. I also think the hp difference between a str and a dex build usually ranges between 30-100 (with the exception of barbarians) hp, which is less than a single heal potion, too.

[Kenji]

On an unrelated side note, let it be on record that I'm calling it now: TF meta incoming!

[Nitro]

If anything this hurts TF's more since they need to chug a ton of potions to get the buffs they need unless they have a pocket caster to buff them up.

[Tarkus the dog]

belligerent drunk wizards and intoxicated mundane fighters.

I'm sold.

Serious suggestion: Using a healing kit should break stealth

[strong yeet]

I think this is an interesting direction, but I am not so certain that certain "essential" potions should have a toxicity rating, namely Haste but also things like zoo buffs, barkskin, or clarity -- it's worth keeping in mind that it falls by 25% every round, but in longer drag-out fights that can lead to very big advantages to characters with Blinding Speed or self-casted haste.

It's also a huge QOL kick in the nuts for anyone without the Heal skill, who are already familiar with life in an aggressively CBT-esque sort of hell; imagine having to stop drinking your exorbitantly expensive cure critical wounds potions because your Geralt of Rivia metre is too high.

EDIT: I also think it's still too much healing. -pray, a gresto scroll, and 5 healing potions (only in a short amount of time -- it's still an infinite amount, you just have to press W for six seconds longer to slurp another) is still more than likely going to be enough to exhaust a wizard's spellbook and probably a sorcerer's too.

It's a very difficult balance to get right: healing needs to be effective enough to let you recover from big damage spikes if you play it well, but not so effective that damage ceases to be relevant outside of a 1-shot. Today we're leaning more toward the latter, but even an ostensibly minor change could lean the server too far the other way.

[Red_Wharf]

The idea is interesting, but I feel like eventually people will just be fed up by it.

[Gouge Away]

The senator from Georgia would like to tack an amendment to this bill: if you're messing around with potions to add "toxicity" then how about they also raise your thirst meter half as much as water would as a little QoL boost.

[AstralUniverse]

I admit I dont fully understand what this toxicity system is supposed to solve or add to the a game besides yet another annoying meter to play around. If it's supposed to balance between high ac builds and big burst builds then I suggest perhaps tying this to STR the same way sobriety is tied to CON and leave buffs out of it. Just an idea.

[Imperatrix]

I'm glad to see something is being done about heal potion spam, though I'm not so sure about including other potions in the equation. That seems to overcomplicate a situation that is relatively simple: heal potions offer too much healing, making certain builds near-unkillable in PvP, and other builds are rendered incapable of killing anyone with a stack of heal potions.

Including haste potions, for example, is potentially crippling to just about every build that doesn't have haste as part of their kit. Haste is an absolutely essential buff in any PvP that needs to be re-applied every minute unless receiving it from a caster. Being forced to balance haste toxicity with heal toxicity and whatever other potions I need in the situation just sounds frustrating to me, especially considering NWN is incredibly bad at displaying information. If there were a handy "toxicity bar" on my UI I wouldn't see much issue, but I really do not want to have to be staring at my floaty overhead text or combat log for my toxicity meter and/or remembering the exact toxicity of every potion as they pertain to what I've used recently.

On the other hand if we limit the system to heal potions, which are the actual problem, it's really easy to equate heal potions to 25% (as an example) and remember you can use four in a fight (depending on how long toxicity lasts for - I assume "ticks" refer to hourly ticks but I'm not sure.)

This aside, any system with the end result of limiting heal potion use is very welcome.

[Eters]

Cooldown on heal potions may be the most straightforward, easy way to approach this without turning it every fight into an algebra equation. Something like a 12 seconds cooldown is enough honestly to allow you to get the edge over whoever is relying on "spamming" healing potions to survive.

Strategy would be involved as well, how to manage that cooldown, what other alternative (less efficient or have far longer cooldown) you can use in that situation, etc.

As for other potions, you're already getting punched in the face with the far higher cost of strong variant potions (Zoo buffs, haste), to be double penalized with managing an extra gauge feels like too much.

[Twily]

I personally don't think any sort of buffing potion should factor into this.


-It will further encourage dip classes to take UMD(or lore) since wands and scrolls for these buffs won't raise the meter, and buff potions specifically will only actually have a notable effect on people who decide to play mundane characters in most cases.

-It also further complicates PvP, something that is already heavily skill based that casual players are already at a huge disadvantage on.

-I'd be worried about it becoming a normal thing in dungeons for people to let their toxicity meter hit 100% so that it can drop back down quickly and they can continue through the dungeon with the ability to drink more potions.
This would be incredibly immersion breaking, yet has the potential of becoming common enough for it to be widely accepted and ignored. Some might even do it deliberately before a boss fight as a means of 'preparation', to put their toxicity lower than it was. This is my largest concern.


A suggested tweak if buff potions are going to apply:
-Rapid lowering of the toxicity meter. If it drops fast enough(Maybe 1% per round?) it would have minimal impact in PvE settings, while still being restrictive in PvP settings.

[Imperatrix]

Will Con allow one to drink more potions, similar to how alcohol works?

Initially I didn't plan for this, but I'm open to the idea.

I recently played a conlock and I don't think con should factor into anything. Con builds are already built to be difficult to kill without giving further advantage.

[Mythic]

Perhaps lowered effectiveness after constant use of certain items?

EG if you drink 4 heal potions you get

1 = 100% effectiveness

2 = 75%

3 = 50%

4 = 35% effectiveness

Staying at 4 until rounds pass you dont drink one. not sure if it's possible, but things like this for consistant use of pots, or even heal kits?