Cultural Issue - description of female/male PCs

[Seven Sons of Sin]

This has bothered me for a long time, and I thought we could talk about it.

Given any range of sample sizes, I think you will largely find two things.

First, female PCs often have an immediate descriptor of attractiveness. If not right away, somewhere in their description there will be a comment of physical beauty - or something about them that makes them physically attractive, even if they are "thin" or "plain", and so forth.

Second, male PCs often ignore this entirely. Most don't need to comment on physical attractiveness. They are hardly ever "handsome", or any typically masculine depictions of beauty.

I always found this deeply problematic, but maybe I am alone.

So, my questions:

1. Do other players experience similarly?

2. Are these actual problems?

3. Do players of female PCs feel a pressure to include language around their character's physicality/attractiveness? Why isn't this a thing for male characters?

[Halibutthead]

oh, boy, i can't wait for the peanut gallery's opinions on this one

[The GrumpyCat]

1. Do other players experience similarly?

2. Are these actual problems?

3. Do players of female PCs feel a pressure to include language around their character's physicality/attractiveness? Why isn't this a thing for male characters?

1) Not sure. I'd have to pay more attention. But my instinct says 'Yes. This is a thing.' - (though I will keep an eye out IG myself, and see if you're correct. But I think you are)

2) Yes, I think it is a problem

3) Not sure. Dispite being female IRL, I rarely play female PCs (can't think why...) And the ones I have played have both been... none-sexy.

I have heard from others that they tend to avoid playing female pcs because they get constantly hit on/flirted at, which they find offputting.

I think this is a really interesting topic, and I do invite discussion on it but I'd ask that everyone please keep it polite and reasonable.

Appart from anything - I think a lot of the players here isn't a matter of... concious sexism. The fact that women are valued primarly for beauty is pretty deeply ingranted into... well certainly western culture and probably a lot of cultures.

Breaking that deep assumption is really tough. So I'd never really condemn another player for doing that.

That being said, I think it is reasonable to ask other players to be thoughtful on this matter and see if they can break the mold a little.

[Flower Power]

Second, male PCs often ignore this entirely. Most don't need to comment on physical attractiveness. They are hardly ever "handsome", or any typically masculine depictions of beauty.

I've not experienced this. At least 50-60% of Male PC descriptions (if people bother to write one at all) comment on how hot or fit their PCs are, which is at least part of the reason why 90% of my characters can be described as "Buff Hank Hill."

[Amnesy]

I tend to avoid descriptions that invoke subjective elements (like if something makes OTHER PCs perceive/react in a certain way, i.e. "she was dreadful", "he is handsome" etc. as it is invasive). Yet it is slightly derailing the subject.

1) I notice it frequently, regardless of attribute placement.
2) So so, as I look for interesting bits in PC's description that define them, and I filter out the lengthy appearance bits with TL; DR. *Burn me*
3) Personally not at all.

[Emotionaloverload]

I haven't noticed any issue with this specifically in descriptions. However I always include text that talks about the character's physical appearance in some way, regardless of race or sex, so that other players can use it as first impressions. People use appearance as a huge portion of first impressions (and impressions in general, I suppose) so I always appreciate it when we get details on any unusual/typical facial structures, hair styles, clothing choices, and cleanliness/sloppiness.

-S

[-XXX-]

I'd say that the description should accurately represent the character sheet.

If a character happens to have a high CHA stat, then I'd say that hinting at their physical attractiveness might be one of the ways to describe such character - female or otherwise.

Characters with a low CHA stat should probably not be described as physically attractive in their character description - female or otherwise.

[Irongron]

Some years back I really started trying to promote Arelith, but in doing so moved much closer to the world of D&D, as it currently is. Be it on our Twitter account, or various forums I increasingly get an insight into what the current cultural status of this game actually is.

And without wanting to go on at length? Log into Twitter right now and search the hashtag #DnDArt and you'll find a VERY high percentage of the images are sexualised images of female tieflings, drow, or other weird furry stuff, very often in an anime style. My own personal opinion? Fantasy art is agruably less progressive than in the 1970s heyday of chainmail bikinis, where at least the females were generally portrayed as actual (strong) women, despite the obvious objectification. The whole D&D reimagining of D&D races as teenage boys and girls leaves me feeling very cold.

But then, should I really be such a grouch about it? It's clearly part of the appeal for players nowadays, and I also don't really want to shame them for it. It's a very similar dynamic in cosplay, which is itself closely related to the whole world of fantasy RPGs. Across a lot of online games we've had this tendency for people to play their 'perfect' selves, and a large part of that, in the current zeigeist is to have the body of teenager. I don't think it is promoting a good body image for men or women, and could possibly doing a lot of harm, but discussing gender politics on the Arelith forums? That's not exactly my dream of saturday night entertainment.

[AstralUniverse]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

I dont want to read that your character is attractive or beautiful or anything subjective that excludes my character's taste in other people sexually. Now, if you write that they groom themselves, or that they look naturally and effortlessly groomed, that's a whole lot better. My character cant be affected by their charisma and confidence just from looking at them.

[-XXX-]

This is how it all started. Hate it or love it, this is why we're all here today.

[Nitro]

Frank's art is legendary, just look at the rippling muscularity of this barbarian warrior:

God I love classical sword & sorcery art.

On topic:

1: Definitely.

2: I don't think it's a problem in itself as long as the descriptions aren't too graphic. I've seen some that almost verge on softcore porn from characters that are very obviously sexy elven fun times bait.

3: I can't comment about the first part, but for my own characters, male or female (though most of my characters are male) I usually get a giggle out of describing either how they're hideously, thunderously ugly, or have some major scarring or deformity that is very prominent. I find it wards away the people only interested in romance RP.

[-XXX-]

I mentioned Frazetta's work because it pretty much is the definition of the objectivization of the human form - and by that I don't mean only female (Conan the Barbarian, anyone?).

It is that work being featured on the covers of fantasy novels that popularized the sword and sorcery genre.
That lead to people discovering and appreciating the older works of the high fantasy genre later on (Tolkien, etc.)
Eventually D&D was created in the wake of all that and...
...we're here in 2020 playing a 20-year old computer game that was inspired by all of the above.


Disclaimer: I DO love Frazetta's work and believe that some 100 years from now, kids in art school will be taught about him as one of the greatest artists of the 20th century.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'm actually going to be really cheeky and, upon some thought, expand on my own comment earlier.

2. Are these actual problems?
Yes, I think it is a problem

I'm going to ammend/expand my thoughts a little.

I think the fact that women in society are stil juded heavily (if not primaraly) for their appearence is a problem.
Is it a problem in Arelith though?
Not... really.
Ultimatly we play Arelith to have fun, not to make huge cultural overhalls/statement. I think if someone wants to play The Most Beautiful Woman In The World then that's... fine. I don't think it in itself is a world destroying issue.

However if someone wants to be Woke enough to move away from these ideas then I think that's great and I woudl encourage it!

I do really respect having none-beautiful female characters around and I very much encourage people to move away from the 'Beautiful woman' sterytype.

But as I said, I think that's very much a 'It's nice thing to do' not a 'It's a terrible thing not to do.'

I recommend people do it more, because honestly it's more interesting often and it does help move away from a RL thing that /is/ harmful. But don't feel like you /have/ to, or that you're bad for wanting to make your avatar pretty.

[DangerDolphin]

I generally wouldn't stoop to outright putting that a character was attractive in my bio (Except perhaps as a lead up to mentioning they were vapid or something comical to pair with it), but I don't think it's any weirder than people wanting to play a super strong guy, or super intelligent mage, it's called fantasy for a reason.

[MissEvelyn]

As someone who plays a lot of female high-CHA characters I tend to be very careful in portraying that high Charisma in my descriptions.

I prefer subtlety over "She's drop-dead gorgeous" when describing my highly charismatic characters. What makes them charismatic? It can be natural charm, sophistication (in mannerisms and style), natural leadership aptitude. Or perhaps she is simply a woman of the people, likeable by all. Charisma does not automatically equal beautiful, but one might argue that most charismatic characters are considered attractive in some way, shape, or form, by at least a some.

Still, I despise when descriptions say "This person is extremely beautiful/handsome, and you find yourself attracted to her/him." Firstly, if I scroll down and see "Charisma: low", then I will not consider your character beautiful or handsome. Simple as that. She or he might become that to my character if they manage to impress her, but first impression won't be that.

And secondly, it's just poor form and almost feels like shallow godmodding that my character feels a certain kind of way based on what's on your description.

[DM Rex]

Charisma is not innately linked to attractiveness, it is linked to someone being able to convince others into their own thoughts and ideas. And a bosom is not actually persuasive so much as it is distracting, so whoever's doing that is already going about it very much the wrong way.

Full disclosure, male or female, all my character descriptions make them sound like they look like dirt. And I couldn't be happier.

[Xerah]

By the actual definition, no. However, in D&D, charisma is linked to attractiveness. It even says so in the NWN description of the stat.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Charisma

I always liked that one book from 2E where they separated each ability out in 2 to give move options though, so I think it was separated into attractiveness and leadership (I’m sure someone will correct me; from Skills and Powers)

[versus]

This isn't something I've noticed, and I don't think it's an issue.

What does jump out at me are all the descriptions of seven foot tall men weighing in at 300lbs of pure muscle etc.

[Drowboy]

This isn't something I've noticed, and I don't think it's an issue.

What does jump out at me are all the descriptions of seven foot tall men weighing in at 300lbs of pure muscle etc.

saw a couple seven foot tall by description drow when the height update first hit that were, no joke, shorter than dwarves visually

[garrbear758]

Yes this is definitely a thing. I see it all the time. It isn't a problem to me personally, but if it is making other players uncomfortable then yes it's a big problem. For me, it's not a huge deal, but seeing what feels like every third character (male or female) with a description talking about how attractive they are is kind of obnoxious. It is definitely a thing for male characters as well, although maybe not as frequently. I'm a dude and usually describe my characters in detail as comically ugly, but that is mostly to poke fun at how ridiculous this trend is.

[Griefmaker]

Yes this is definitely a thing. I see it all the time. It isn't a problem to me personally, but if it is making other players uncomfortable then yes it's a big problem. For me, it's not a huge deal, but seeing what feels like every third character (male or female) with a description talking about how attractive they are is kind of obnoxious. It is definitely a thing for male characters as well, although maybe not as frequently. I'm a dude and usually describe my characters in detail as comically ugly, but that is mostly to poke fun at how ridiculous this trend is.

I see more often people overtly trying to make ugly/scarred/missing a limb characters. Or men who are 7 feet tall, hugely muscled, full battle plate armor, a small armory upon them...and a dex build.

Which is worse? (hint: neither).

This is more of a worry about your own RP sort of thing. Everyone trying to police everyone else has gotten very tiring and is kind of sad and pathetic.

[fading]

While I agree this is an issue, it's definitely not as important as the whole "getting hit on by random strangers all the damn time," though I'm not sure what could be done about that. It's an attitude of entitlement that people hold in real life, so it's only natural it would follow into the game, that said, I sorta play Arelith to escape the cat-calling, creepy stares and everything else, apparently if you're a woman, you don't get to escape reality through fantasy.

[Naiinara]

Yeah. I see such descriptions all the time. And, I don't even care. People are in the mindset of playing a heroine or hero. Comes with the territory.

My character met someone the other day who had a description along the lines of "most beautiful." Had a great time rping with her too. Really great. She certainly deserved that high charisma score. I would have missed out if I prejudged.

I remember when I started there were all kinds of red haired characters and there was some complaint about that too. And my character happened to have red hair cause I thought it fitted her, not because of any personal ooc wish or whatever. Was kinda annoying reading all the whining then.

I'm just happy after so many years I can still find people to rp with.

[Airport Proximity Jesus]

I genuinely don't care one way or another. But what's weird to me is that I tend to play female PCs in any game I play and have never been regularly at the receiving end of being hit on. I do think it happens, but it's never happened to me!

Amusingly, my male character, Annwyl, was the first character I've ever been hit on as ever, and thats probably because male pixies are nonexistent.

I actually design most of my characters with some physical or psychological reason for them never to engage in relationships. I'm very proud of these and they never come up. It upsets me deeply! I got this idea from my first character because she was completely hideous and constantly mutilated her body in palemastery experiments, so after that and how funny I thought it was, I went further with it. I think my favorite is my Yuanti, whose standards were so high that it was impossible to impress her with anything.

This is all an aside of course. Back to the topic!

For the last one? eh, do as you will. If people wanna do it they can do it. I've never felt pressured to do anything

[Ninjimmy]

I've not seen it that often but I usually gloss over bow attractive they are because... well, it depends on the beholder.

It is a nice way to enrich WYSIWYG though