New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

[mjones3]

Offering the opposite feedback as other STR Rangers, as someone who plays a lot of STR Rangers, the Vamp. Regen feats have me salivating. They might not be the most optimal PvP options, but that's a lot of added sustain, which would help give STR Rangers parity with DEX rangers for tanking (who are virtually invincible in PvE, due to the sheer number of Blade Thirst vamp regens they can hoover up in the blink of an eye.)

Gib vamp regen pls.

Vampiric regen working 50% of the time is like arcane spell failure 10% only ruining your spells 10% of the time. NwN will do its numbers game where it it triggers every hit for a while, or not at all for a while. Its janky at best so don't don't expect it to add a consistent sustain.

[Ork]

I do agree it should be the "new" 100% vamp regen.

[Curve]

How about tying vamp regen to ranger levels with a STR requirement rather than spell casting. 13/14 WIS always seemed like a hefty cost for only casting Invis Purge and Blade Thirst. You could keep the option of casting open for DEX Rangers this way too.

[mjones3]

I do agree it should be the "new" 100% vamp regen.

Not with you there sadly. The new weapon regen lets you regen typically 15+ a round if you get in at least 3 hits. Giving that for every thing no matter what would be over the top. Vanilla Vamp regen will cut that down to 5 a round more than likely. If you hit with all 4-6 attacks probably 5-15 on average, but sometimes 20-30.

[Nitro]

I do agree it should be the "new" 100% vamp regen.

Not with you there sadly. The new weapon regen lets you regen typically 15+ a round if you get in at least 3 hits. Giving that for every thing no matter what would be over the top. Vanilla Vamp regen will cut that down to 5 a round more than likely. If you hit with all 4-6 attacks probably 5-15 on average, but sometimes 20-30.

It's easier to adjust the numbers up or down with new vampiric regeneration. If you put vamp regen 1 on with the new vamp regen, you'll get exactly one hp per hit. If you do it with the old, you could get either 1 or no hp each hit, and not necessarily in an even 50/50 spread either.

[Drowboy]

I mean, if we assume the knowledge had about the property is correct, and it triggers roughly half the time over a long enough time scale to take accurate results-

Wouldn't giving half that amount as new regen be literally the same thing?
(and if we assume it doesn't work the way we think it does, and is effectively random with no real normalization at all, well, it's not worth a feat, is it)

[WJLIII3]

As a mage player, the combination of this:

Second Wind (Granted at level 2)
- Standard action - 10 minute cooldown - self only
- Grants fighter level * con mod hp.
Example 1: 20 fighter with 14 base con - 20*8 = 160 hp
Example 2: 26 fighter with 16 base con - 26 * 9 = 234 hp
Example 3: 6 fighter dip with 14 base con - 6*8 = 48 hp

and this

Sucker punch (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- Standard action - touch attack - 2 minute cooldown
- Does 5 * Fighter level damage
- Blinds for 1 rounds on a failed fortitude save
- DC = Fighter level + Con Mod

Seem really really brutal on casters, who already lack both staying power and kill pressure. They now can't even use AC to protect themselves from an attack that will so at least 90 damage and blind them, making targeted spellcasting impossible, and their first two rounds of damage (or one hasted round) can be erased with a cooldown ability, without even the need for potions.

[Tarkus the dog]

The blind is a touch attack that lasts for a round.

It's also a standard action.

This means by the time the fighter is able to attack you, the blind is down + you're away from the fighter.

Sucker punch is not a crowd control ability if it lasts for 1 round and is a standard action. It is a very decent melee touch attack execute ( that you're never going to be able to use ), very robust if you're a 30 fighter ( I'm assuming it's melee as ranged wouldn't make sense with STR ). If you're not a pure fighter then you are unlikely to take this feat as there are better epic feat options.

[jomonog]

Been mucking around with various builds and thinking how to balance strength and dex builds.

Every mundane or non casting strength build I look at the one thing that makes me most sad about it is the thought of having to haste using potions and the poor quality of life that has compared to blinding speed on dex builds.

My suggestion therefore to bring some parity is to make blinding speed also available for selection as a feat if you have strength of 25+. I dont think this would be too overpowered as its more a quality of life change for strength melee generally. Its makes sense thematically too as strength is required as a sprinter.

[a shrouded figure]

I find that I don’t realize how bad I have it until I group with a monk or blinding speed character - lol.

It’s a bit funny when my slow poke hard hitting strength guy runs into an invincible super speed character that deals as much damage... it doesn’t bother me it just makes me realize that I’ve been playing on hard mode haha

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Been mucking around with various builds and thinking how to balance strength and dex builds.

Every mundane or non casting strength build I look at the one thing that makes me most sad about it is the thought of having to haste using potions and the poor quality of life that has compared to blinding speed on dex builds.

My suggestion therefore to bring some parity is to make blinding speed also available for selection as a feat if you have strength of 25+. I dont think this would be too overpowered as its more a quality of life change for strength melee generally. Its makes sense thematically too as strength is required as a sprinter.

Blinding Speed being an instant action is what it makes it so insanely good. I have hardly being theorycrafting any non-DEX build, just because I want to play with Blinding Speed.

I don't think the response, also, should be making it a Standard action rather than an Instant action. It would be totally be interesting opening it up to STR builds, but I do think it should be slightly tweaked if it was - a "Blinding Speed Dex" vs. "Blinding Speed Str."

For example, I wouldn't give the Blinding Speed Str +1 APR, I'd give them like an adrenaline shot of Discipline/save boosts or something.

But the instant-action +50% move speed is crazy. I really see now why Dex builds become so prevalent, especially with the combination of the previous Knockdown nerfs. You just can't *stick* to these builds.

(the alternative would be to change how Attacks of Opportunity work, and changing it so the Tumble DC is vs. the target's Discipline, and not just a DC of 15. that would be super spicy)

[Poolbrain]

I think the simple reason why dex is so prevalent is that they got their cookie (EDodge and then now Speed) while strength lost their cookie (Dev crit).

Dev crit balances out a lot of builds since it forces people to get the high fortitude (spellcraft not counting).

All this from a PvP perspective of course.

Not saying vanilla Dev crit is the best way to solve the issue, but a cookie is indeed needed. Giving them the same cookie as dex builds sounds boring.

Rebuilding with Dev crit without insta death is a good idea though, maybe upping the requirement on strength since we got gifts.

[AstralUniverse]

I tried out some builds on the cbc and pgcc with the now 19 con req EDR. I tried stuff like heavy hexblade builds with curse of life and 25+ fighter options, etc. I think, after considering the nerfs to grenades, quarterstaff, ranger's dual-wield + monk synergy removed AND now this EDR change too.. I think we're getting somewhere. I'd recommend not to introduce new game changing feats just yet and wait a couple of months.

What we do need to look at is gear, and especially armors. I still dont understand why anyone would ever make an adamantine half-plate (or really 70% of the armors for the same reason). I think we can do a lot more in that department.

[Nidea Lynn]

In response to the STRanger ideas, I have a three ideas that may help the STRanger problem:

Damage Reduction & Regen Per Round

Since some pushback has been given regarding vampiric enhancement, what if those benefits were translated into DR & regeneration? I'm not sure how the development team balances such boons, but instead of +2 (stackable) VE, it would provide +1/+1 DR/R (or its equivalence) per round for X rounds. I understand that conceptually these buffs correspond better thematically with high constitution, yet mechanically, it does avoid the requirement to land a hit and failing the 50% proc.

Blinding Strike Riposte

Another way to add survivability is to reduce incoming damage entirely through misses; in this case, at the appropriate STR requirement, toggle-based (stackable) stance could be activated and lasts X turns. 50% Upon being hit, a save-based riposte is triggered. If the opponent fails to save (discipline?), they are blinded for x turns. While this does have the 50% ratio, it is based upon being hit instead of landing one. Moving the ability to depend on a save avoids the AC problem. Placing it within a stance avoids taking up a turn like using KD would. This idea assumes quite a bit regarding how flexible the engine is, however.

Intimidating Aura

If we flip the idea of adding survivability to killing your opponent more quickly, at a certain STR threshold, a toggle would be granted that lowers nearby opponents AC by X for Y turns if they fail a relevant save at an appropriate number. It could also be stackable with itself; if 5 rounds pass by and all the saves fail, the penalty would be -10 AC (if it's 2 AC per round). Numbers are obviously negotiable. Again, this avoids having to deal a hit, fits thematically with being strong, and gives time for keen eyed DEX players to know how many rounds they have to budget for these types of fighters.

[Dr. B]

I take it someone has already suggested enabling Dev Crit, but modifying it so that it does a lot more damage on a failed save rather than insta-death.

But if they haven't, let me be the first.

[CNS]

I take it someone has already suggested enabling Dev Crit, but modifying it so that it does a lot more damage on a failed save rather than insta-death.

But if they haven't, let me be the first.

Dev Crit but it just nullifies E-dodge (Qualifying requirements for both looked at).

You can then save E-dodge for PvE and help remove one of the worst things for PvP balance.

Trading 20's via high AC might not be the most fun meta but its not inherantly unbalanced. Being able to force combat into a trade of 20's when one side has to trade into e-dodge is.

[Moonlandergames]

As someone who played a 26/4 Ranger/Bard Strength Ranger with Tomir under the Brandts I will say my thoughts on a few topics regarding the strength ranger and proposed changes

The "Strength" of Strength Rangers- Strength rangers at least from what i've done play into the category of a glass cannon, something with more attacks but the equivalent stopping power of a WM with the small flair of anti defense with a +5 bladethirst ignoring a good few DR spells.

General Concerns- the biggest issue running into the path is # of feats needed to be viable. Slayer of Enemies as well as other feats that melees are already incentivized to take (Such as Expertise) really puts a hamper on the amount of feats in a chain to make something like a strength ranger good and may cause strength ranger to fall into the "Have to play human for the extra feat to make it work".

Regen- From reading the other posts I agree having it be the 100% regen would make things much more consistent, however I still dont think it would be the best for the build at a pvp level. +5 Vampire regen off bladethirst tends to be all you need at a pve standpoint as long as you are not tanking damage, but at pvp your AC teeters at a "Worse then Weapon master" with the restrictions to some of your two weapon fighting abilities and heavy armor. I would still fear that a +15 vampire regen wouldn't stop you from getting shredded by any dedicated damage threat.

Animal Companion -Something I feel is quite under used design wise probably because it would be a pain in the neck to program stuff around having a certain mob out. Normally its used to throw out a body thats weaker then a elder elemental typically that takes attention of the mobs in a ritualistic sacrifice. Im no feat designer but it would be interesting for some strength based feats revolving around buffs while Animal Companion is out (DR, AC, or even See invis and Movement speed bonuses while its out)

[AstralUniverse]

I like the change to mighty rage and I like the +4 full plate, and I absolutely adore the hexblade armor and how's made.

[garrbear758]

Most of the fighter feats are going to be held off on for a bit with the other recent changes like the armors and timestop. Some of them will likely still be added like second wind but the stronger ones probably won't happen now.

The ones likely to still be added:
Second wind
Epic second wind
Honed edge

On the fence:
precision strikes OR sucker punch in mid to upper epic levels

I'm still planning some minor additions for STRanger.

[Elurion]

Echoing what others have said, the Arelith wiki paints a very specific picture of what rangers are supposed to be. There are two Areliths, the one where primarily roleplayers immerse themselves in a character, and another where players primarily play for a deep, competitive, ever-changing PvP metagame. Both are valid methods of play. Both should be addressed.

Strength rangers when compared to dex fail in one respect: AC and general dodginess. Rangers, like other many classes, should be playable and powerful as a pure class, and should stand on their own without all that silly kung-fu mumbo jumbo. And I think STRrangers should gain benefits limited to their natural environment, against their favored enemies.

STRrangers get hammered by high AB high crit mobs. So, empower what toys they already have: Hips, Ultravision, Freedom. Rangers should be hit and run melee. Guerilla tactics, baby. Spells or spell-like abilities that only work in natural environments against favored enemies would be a boon in PvE and PvP. Just for example, Darkness, Confusion, Entangle, Web or Sleep which only works in natural environments, against favored enemies, could all be representative of a ranger's mastery of the land and knowledge of a creature's weaknesses. Combined with ultravision and Hips, this makes traversing a ranger's territory even more intimidating. These could be on cooldown, which only ticks in natural environments, or casts/day. Adding more opportunities for ambush without defaulting to traps is an option. This adds defensive value to HiPS for melee players.

One possible solution for balancing any additions for str only plays is to make a separate Path for str rangers. Make them choose this playstyle over that of a quarterstaff monk dex ranger. Limit dex bonus to AC, prohibit Epic Dodge, or whatever, on the str Path. You want all the ranger bells and whistles? Be a ranger. You want a monk quarterstaff bane of enemies proccing PvP ninja elf? Go be one of those.

Just my ideas!

[garrbear758]

Echoing what others have said, the Arelith wiki paints a very specific picture of what rangers are supposed to be. There are two Areliths, the one where primarily roleplayers immerse themselves in a character, and another where players primarily play for a deep, competitive, ever-changing PvP metagame. Both are valid methods of play. Both should be addressed.

This is entirely wrong and I'm very tired of seeing this false sentiment. Some of the best roleplayers I've seen on this server have also had good builds and are good at pvp. Some of the worst roleplayers I've seen also had terrible builds. The two are not in any way mutually exclusive.

[Drowboy]

Don't make me tap the sign.

[Kenji]

Read that before, but read it again just for the chuckles.

One should perceive Roleplaying and Powerbuilding/Optimizing as orthogonal axes where each axis can be independent of one another rather than a singular number line where they're on the opposing ends.

[Elurion]

While I guess it doesn't read like that, what I meant by the part you quoted was exactly what Kenji said, although I guess I didn't phrase it well. I agree there are good RPers that are good PvPers and builders, and vice versa, and there exists all manner of players across the spectrum. My point was that I was hoping to see some changes that makes rangers more rangery flavor-wise, while also improving the PvP game.

[Scylon]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding strength builds of late in another topic which I linked to this one. As such I wanted to push this guy up so people can see this topic and also add a bit to it myself.

I think the biggest issue with Strength characters is dips. They are flat out required as pure mundane characters are just bad. Outside the barb/WM build they are very lacking for PvE and need magical aid, which I'm totally not opposed too, but it should enhance my character, not be a requirement.

My suggestion would be any buffs for strength based builds would need a mundane tag. I suggested this in the other post regarding gold however I'll rehash it here. If some one dedicates to a mundane build that forgoes any self divine or magical aid would gain some of these new powers. This grants a bit more flexibility in adding stuff in if the DM restricts or removes them should a character take levels in something that isn't mundane. So things like WM, Fighter, Knight, dwarven defender, Specialist and maybe dips in swash, invisible blade and maybe rouge (UMD would make them able to use magic now?). I purposely exclude barbarian from this as they are really good when leveled right. That said tribes man don't get rage so maybe they would be mundane also?

Another possible buff would be to make herbalism more attractive with some high DC items that mesh with alchemy stuff that offer decent potions that can do things usually reserved for casters? not sure how you would restrict that however.