Half-Breed Camp

[Ninjimmy]

When I started Cordor is described as a small city-state. After a few weeks it felt that Cordor were considered an imperium.

Yeah, this is sortof a result of Big Fish, Little Pond. Cordor's a small city state but it's the biggest settlement on the isle and has Amnish backing so it gets treated like an imperium due to relative scale. Like how you'll sometimes get epics on Skal flaunting their level 30 powers over lowbies, Cordor is just the big boy in town - if they got uppity Amn would put the boot in.

I would also quite like if Sibayad felt like it was more of a presence for sketchy activity.
AND Sencliff, kinda.
There are options for sketchier settlements, just wish we had one without slavery as the core attraction and that had some kind of messy political deal so overt aggression was disallowed. That period when Sibayad was openly trading with Andunor and was daring Arelith proper to do something about it was really interesting, just needed some kinda backing like Calimshan or something that kept the other settlements in check.

[Flower Power]

There's the Merchant League, but more often than not they end up being used to keep Sibayadi players in line, and to stop them from just trying to strong arm their way into "officially controlling" the settlement/enforcing their will onto people over Sibayad's stated neutrality.

[mjones3]

We're not going to beat Sibiyads current approach in my opinion. Let them come in for trade, they buy their things, and they leave. Gets you that tense trade RP with monsters on the surface but doesn't let them stay for a cuddle.

What ever happened to the Gnoll encampment in old stonehold? I feel like that's an easy experience on how monster surface settlements will turn out. I remember it being the key point raiding parties came through, awkwardly having to just ignore monsters while going from bendir to brog, and not being sure if I should or shouldn't pvp monsters who ran to there to try and hide from getting killed.

[hmm]

...goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, kobolds, troglodytes, and ogres are all surface races. It does the setting an injustice that these playable characters are inexplicably banned from permanent or semi-permanent surface settlements

permanent or semi-permanent spots for them? It is a dream to see this come to fruition.

[Petrifictus]

...goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, kobolds, troglodytes, and ogres are all surface races. It does the setting an injustice that these playable characters are inexplicably banned from permanent or semi-permanent surface settlements

permanent or semi-permanent spots for them? It is a dream to see this come to fruition.

I’ve long roleplayed and worked hard to make surface monster RP possible as Karstaag. Would love if monster races would get some distant caves or hidden lairs to camp, which only they could get access and take over.
If people start to camp and patrol these areas for simply PvP with barely giving RP, report them.

If team is keen to stick with their plan by allowing surface races into Andunor as trade city without an issue (unless you’re an elf), the UD races should have something similar. Not saying we should get access into Dale but surface monsters certainly need more room.

We got Sencliff and Shadow Wharftown but that can easily change if a group of players decide that monsters are not welcome there and they get DM support since we’re supposed to be unwanted as ”underdogs.” Dis is neat through, wish I could own the bar there.

We’re too much afraid about ”threat of cuddlebolds” but most of the time I’ve roleplayed as monster, I’ve seen this issue of cuddly acceptance of hugs come more from the surfacers and not from the monsters.
Beside its hurtful to bring this up as it hints that people cannot be trusted to RP monsters. Its more likely that halfling will offer tea and pie to monster than gnoll begging for bellyrubs.

”Monsters got Andunor, they can play there” is not a good argument. Imagine if we locked all the elves into Myon, halflings into Dale, etc. and told you may not RP elsewhere.
If UD character become unwelcome there, their RP will turn very limited with options, unlike the surfacers who can just jump into another settlement. Which is why I try to work on the vision where monsters can practice their RP and have places to go without being forced to roll or shelf the moment they become unwanted in the Underdark.

You want to see more monsters and their RP?
Give us more room.

ps. I’m running Arelith Monster Support - group at discord, where we gather all sort of tips, lore, history, etc. for anyone who wish to become part of it. Also be free to reach me IC or OOC if interested.

Edit. Dont support idea that monsters can only RP at surface if they’re slaves.

[Turn the Tide]

There's the Nelanthar's smuggler cove that you can access and set up tents and such in, some areas with mobs some not.
It won't be a quarter- but not much know how to access it and it can be pretty secluded for some passive monster RP.

Could even occupy the fortress nearby it probably, that has the twisted rune liches.

I'm sure that monsters aren't exactly barred from the surface- they just can't be allowed in cities, own surface quarters, or be in known traveled places for too long of a time as per the monster DM policy.

I do advocate for changes on that though, there definitely needs to be more monster spots on the surface I feel.

[JoeKickAss]

I'm sure that monsters aren't exactly barred from the surface- they just can't be allowed in cities, own surface quarters, or be in known traveled places for too long of a time as per the monster DM policy.

Ive not played long but Id say that as monster on surface, you are barred from everywhere except Sencliffe, even there I have been ganked. Id say dont expect to even be able to beg for your life as a monster, and that RP solutions are nearly always rejected.

Re: cuddlebolds. Right now all underdark races are united. Pursuing an anti-human or divisive plots in underdark will result in exile.

Keep in mind, factionwise, underdark is just Anundor. There's no darrowdeep equivelant, no Bendir Dale, no Borg, no Myon. Anundor is the strongest faction in the game as a result. It is not even surface bases that are essential. But clearly the appeal of a half-orc camp will be that it is half-human/half-monster. If that's not desired, what do half-orcs do?

Beyond that, what are realistic goals for monster races? What are we fighting for? What does underdark intrigue look like?

[Flower Power]

If team is keen to stick with their plan by allowing surface races into Andunor as trade city without an issue (unless you’re an elf), the UD races should have something similar. Not saying we should get access into Dale but surface monsters certainly need more room.

Do they? I don't think they do.

Andunor is Skullport-lite. It's a shady trade city that's supposed to be trafficked by both Underdarkers and shadier Surfacers. That has always been its vision and intended purpose, and the staunch anti-Outcast anti-Surface sentiment is just a holdover from older UD players trying to turn it into Nu-Udos or Little Menzo. The developers and DMs alike have all been very clear, both at the start of Andunor and consistently since then, that this is not what Andunor is supposed to be.

It doesn't make sense for any of the surface settlements to be pro (or even tolerant) of monstrous races, though. Nor do we really need to encourage that sort of behavior - if I get told off by one more paladin for being "intolerant" for not blindly trusting a random duergar or kobold, I'm going to start exploding people.

[The GrumpyCat]

Odd quesiton - but genuinly meant.

'Why do you want there to be a monster-settlment on the surface?'

Disreguarding how possible it is or not - why do people want one?

[JoeKickAss]

Odd quesiton - but genuinly meant.

'Why do you want there to be a monster-settlment on the surface?'

For me:

1. regionalised, more subtle conflict, with a purpose as opposed to constant server wide conflict without any purpose. e.g. Gnolls hunting on arelith forest annoys elf, there is a gnoll v elf conflict. Not ALL GNOLLS MUST DIE IMMEDIATELY conflict involving the whole of the underdark and every single surfacer.

2. Make regions and large mostly abandoned areas of Arelith mean something. "Goblin country", "Orc country", etc.


3. Have a more graded surface-underdark spectrum, with "neutral areas in between" inhabited by "not-quite surfacers" and "not-quite underdark" races. If you think Cordor-Anundor as a ladder with Anundor on the bottom. You might have the mighty Cordor, this leads to the sewers where a human thieves guild resides. Beneath that maybe a small goblin tribe in underpassages linked to the caverns, where you find kobolds or deep gnome holds hidden within a cavern system beneath that, and then you arrive in the mighty Anundor, ruled by drow with a small derro colony in the sewers and a large deurgar keep nearby (and close to Borg).

This then gives territory for factions to squabble over, and a lot of scope for plotting outside of Cordor.

[Ork]

Truthfully, I just hate the "surfacer vs. underdarker" comments when 1/2 the races in Andunor are surface ones. I also think that Andunor & the surface might as well be two different servers with the amount of interaction they foster for one another - which is 0 unless you go out of your way.

Give players stakes in both areas. Why would a paladin come to the underdark (besides getting that sweet beast b- nvm), and vice versa why would an underdark race go to the surface?

[Itikar]

Odd quesiton - but genuinly meant.

'Why do you want there to be a monster-settlment on the surface?'

Disreguarding how possible it is or not - why do people want one?

The current state of Underdark vs. Surface simply is disruptive of immersion and not really consistent with the lore. Some monsters live on the surface and it belongs to them, in the due places, as much as it belongs to humans, elves, & co. There are types of roleplay, monster roleplay, among monsters, that are not really possible in the Underdark. Many monster cultures have rites and traditions that relate to the surface and with the current setup this is very hard if not frankly impossible to realize. And this is ultimately a loss for the server. Even drow have groups, such as Vhaerunites and Eilistraeeans, that have plans and traditions related to actually claiming remote areas of the surface. The only one race that truthfully has none of this are the deep gnomes, who are by lore very oriented toward the Underdark, but ironically here they are the one race that can roam the surface as they please.

I want to stress that the way I see monsters on the surface is not one of peaceful coexistence. It is at best of isolation, or of interactions with surface people comparable to what we have in Andunor now. What would change in having monsters able to play on the surface would mostly be the environment. I don't think the interactions should not be antagonistic, even if antagonism different thatn mechanical PvP can certainly be welcome, as the kind of roleplay with deals, truces, etc. is more appealing to me than kill on sight.

Make no mistake, there are also certain behaviors in the Underdark, more from the playerbase than from the developers though, that do not sit well with me. I mentioned this in other topics related to this and I will not digress further, but it essentially still boils down to the above the setup of Surface vs. Underdark is shallow at best, and it prevents a more complex and interesting interactions.

But ultimately I think Ork put it down succinctly and quite beautifully. Right now it very often feels we play different servers.

I believe we can do a bit better than this.

[Aradin]

Odd quesiton - but genuinly meant.

'Why do you want there to be a monster-settlement on the surface?'

Disregarding how possible it is or not - why do people want one?

Others have already given great reasons; my main important point is this. I think when people hear the idea of a monster surface settlement, what they're really hearing is a place for Underdarkers to lounge around on the surface. But I would argue that isn't the case. Why would the proud orog chief ally himself with filthy, backstabbing drow? Why would the wily orc shaman go to the Erudite Arcanum for aid in a nature-preserving ritual instead of the Heartwood Grove? If there's a surface settlement for monsters, I firmly believe it would be at odds with Andunor much of the time.
I can feasibly imagine situations where Cordor might need to temporarily ally itself with the monsters in order to deal with a drow incursion, or where the duergar of Andunor need to ally themselves with the monsters in order to have a place to trade with surfacers. Having a third big presence in the world, allied with neither the surface at large nor Andunor, would open Arelith up to a bevy of cool plots and fun.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Orogs are an underdark monster. There are a lot of surface monsters that are in the Underdark, and I think it's dumb when they say stuff like "surfacer races", because they're surfacer races too. But orogs are not one of them.

[Aradin]

Whoops, you're absolutely right there. My bad! Replace it with 'proud ogre chief'.

[Gouge Away]

I'm 1000% in favor of a monster settlement that would let us get into the really wild tribal RP that stuff like skull coins and the Shaman class suggests but always seems odd to play in ultra-civilized Anundor. Please please please let's bring that about. It's something that's been wanted on Arelith for as long as I can remember and I remember 2007.

It's never going to happen in the half-breed camp. That suggestion should be off the table because it would never ever be considered. It would have to be in a remote area and very inconvenient for the Radiant Hearters and Cordor Knights to access, and likewise extremely difficult for the monsters to raid indiscriminately and at level 3.

Like, make it half-underground, half above ground on a remote island or on the other side of the Dark Spires or something, and the only way to get there is through extremely treacherous lands on the surface, by pirate ship from Sencliff, or by going down through the underdark and back up (I think such a settlement should be reasonably possible to access to and from Anundor but far enough away there's no turf war.)

[Flower Power]

Keep in mind that we used to have a monster camp on the surface, Urblexis Grond and Udos Dro'xun and it - Well, it wasn't great.

We backed off that model and got rid of it all for a reason, folks.

[Drowboy]

Funny bit of server history, but this is what gnolls were originally intended to be. They were supposed to be a go-betweener race, and the little npc gnoll camp that was behind the stone hold ruins was going to be their "place," as it was at the time situated between a few reliable ways down to the UD. I even played one of the first few gnolls to get made! It was an interesting, ambitious project, and it was absolutely miserable from jump.

It was ruined by several things:
1. The lolth tlu malls udos griefers set immediately found out where gnolls spawned and showed up en masse with, being extremely kind here, 0 rpr bow or die rp and drove off most people

2. Gnolls that ended up on the surface got hit by surfacer 0 rpr go back to the Underdark or die rp

3. The remainder of gnolls at that time was, not to put too fine a point on it, the ol alpha yiff sexy elven fun times stereotype that most people avoid gnolls for by reputation even still

Do I think this would happen again with a new monsters in surface camp?

Maybe not. Maybe we've matured.

Do I think a surface "monster" camp is doable without settlement mechanics, rules changed, possibly races rebalanced, and a heavy dm hand?

100% no. All those things are necessary and it's likely theyd still have a miserable time, especially non-30s.

[Gouge Away]

Stonehold ruins are three areas from Bendir and right next to the forest, of course that's going to be a mess, you're right on top of each other.

You don't see daily raids on Sencliff even though it's an evil surface area because it's difficult to get to and it's "out of sight out of mind." Same philosophy would would for a monster settlement if it's in an area that's a PITA to travel to. I would never underestimate the power of inconvenience to sway behavior.

[Drowboy]

Oh, for sure, and then we've got:
1. Cordor start
2. Skal start
3. Brog start
4. Andunor start
5. Sncliffe start
6. Monster start for, I feel like this is important to mention, kobolds, goblins, and races that are currently reward only otherwise.

3 and 5 only work because those starts let you bounce out of them and into the normal writ-and-community infrastructure. It's all well and good to put a monster camp somewhere annoying to get to, but to make playing them not a chore you need to set it up, essentially, as it's own self-contained 3-21 at least, and if I'm being honest I don't, no offense to the current ogre players in here, see the point of all this effort going towards, frankly, what are usually 2 active ogres, a couple minotaurs maybe, and one hobgoblin if any.

[Ork]

Y'know, in an ideal world we would have players playing monsters that evoke suspicion, hostility, and savagery. While I think some players do these things, some players choose not to. If there was a surface monster settlement, that would have to come in tandem with harsher consequences for being a nice monster.

[The GrumpyCat]

There are a few valid and interesting points here, and before I begin I want to add that I'm not... intrinsically against a monster settlment. But I think making one brings with it a few issues. Because I think that there are three extremes it can go.

1) The setlment is used as a stanging ground for - and target of, constant pvp.

2) This settlment becomes a hug-box for surfacers/monster races.

3) This settlment becomes a 'safe space', an out of the way enclave where a few people rp, but most people just ignore.

Of the three, the third is the least troublesome. But Irongron has mentioned before now that he wants to see the player base pushed together more, forced to live together more, to interact more. We're seeing that with New Guldorand and I think that point this would kinda go against that.

Which isn't to say that I think the idea is entirely bad. I think there is an issue with Andunor in that, if your character makes enough enemies there- you're kinda stuck.
And the point about the fact that a lot of these monsters are 'surface monsters' is actually well put, and makes an amount of sense.

But the issue is how to weave in the place of those characters, with the rest of the server. I think it'd be very difficult to do.

[Ork]

Andunor is a settlement that grows based on height. Could another district be added that is undoubtedly "Andunor" but holds claim of a surface cave?

[JoeKickAss]

Of the three, the third is the least troublesome. But Irongron has mentioned before now that he wants to see the player base pushed together more, forced to live together more, to interact more. We're seeing that with New Guldorand and I think that point this would kinda go against that.

Guldorand is a well-defended camp with rules around PvP, the half-breed camp is not.

The point of any monster settlement is to create outlets for storytelling and interaction, and PvP. The whole point of monster settlements should be to bring people together (particularly underdarkers and surfacers). This might mean including monsters in an underused camp in a strategic location (next to Crow's Nest), that is currently run by a PC that seems to approve of it.

Monster settlements should fill gaps that exist on the server. There just needs to be a lot more interaction between underdark and surface, and the terms of those interactions (outside of PvP) need to be worked out.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't see how a monster settlement on the surface is anything more then a settlement like sencliff only with the problems the cliff has magnified times ten. At least with Sencliff, the characters that would normally react to pirates with pitchforks and torches can relate to their humanity...or Elfinity, or Halfinity...yeah, I can go on but those are terrible.

As people who experienced this in the past have explained, this would just be a constant circle war of pvp until it lays empty and the developer who spent their valuable free time winds up depressed that his work was wasted. Sorry for being the party pooper here, but someone has to save the devs from a lifetime of Zoloft bills when it could have been easily avoided with a dose of common sense.