Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[DangerDolphin]

Full list here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZu ... sp=sharing

They're not on the PGCC yet, but in the next few days will turn up there.

[Bunnysmack]

I'd have to play with it in PGCC, once the new songs get posted there, but looking at the numbers, but I'm pretty sure "Booming Drums of the Storm" is too strong of a hard counter to all spellcasting. Here's my reasoning...

First, saveless 10% arcane spell casting failure that only needs to be applied with a wide AoE shout is...Ow. It's like...Imagine 10% of a warrior's sword swings auto-failed prior to even addressing spell resistance/mantle AC, or crazy high saving throws of the current meta concealment? Add in that you have a limited number of sword swings per day and...Ouch.

MORE concerning, however, is the combination of the lightning strike with concentration debuff. Up to -10 concentration, combined with a saveless lightning bolt that hits for up to 15d8 (average damage of 67.5). Especially with the concentration debuff, that average damage is virtually guaranteed to cause a spell to fail unless it's an epic spell. Assuming the high range of caster base constitution+buffs, that's a +10 con mod to concentration, 33 skill ranks, and let's generously say...24 bonus concentration from items. That equals 67 concentration (way higher than most epic-geared level 30 casters have actually), but the DC to resist spell failure is 10+SpellCircle+DamageTaken.

So...factoring in the -10 concentration from the song...to resist the average damage on subsequent strikes, a caster with VERY high concentration will be unable to cast even level 1 spells while being repeatedly assaulted by this song. The closest analog to a no-save elemental effect like this is Ice storm, but that actually divides the damage into two separate damage rolls (Bludgeoning and cold damage), likely for this exact issue of concentration balance, and this song actually hits substantially harder than ice storm, because it uses D8s (instead of D6s) but still tops out at 15 dice (just like Ice Storm).

Note: I like the idea of a storm singer effect, I just think it needs some tweaks. Having something that is anti-caster is likely a good idea, to give bard more versatility, but it shouldn't be so potent as to ENTIRELY make their victim unable to cast.

[Drowboy]

Healing Harmony [4]

+1 regeneration per 5 bard levels
+1 to healing per 3 bard levels
+5 saves vs poison
+2 Fortitude Saving Throws
ESF: Perform: Immunity to Poison and Disease

Cleric levels with the healing domain count for this song. The number of cleric levels contributing to the song cannot exceed those of the bard levels.

So,
It seems a little bit like a fully kitted out bard could, theoretically, between combats swap into various utility songs to fill certain roles, like healer. Neat. Looks cool.

[Nitro]

2. Non of the songs we haven't revealed have implications for balance, or we would have made them public. They have niche situational uses for either specifically pve, rp, or exploration.

Boy am I glad they were made public because this wasn't true at all. A lot of the songs in that document seem very relevant indeed to very specific class matchups. And specifically to how you may want to build your character.

[AstralUniverse]

Can we please not have Open Lock in any shape or form on any of the bonuses of this class except the base bonus to skills? I understand the thematic intent but... just big no. For obvious reasons.

[Garvik]

Can we please not have Open Lock in any shape or form on any of the bonuses of this class except the base bonus to skills? I understand the thematic intent but... just big no. For obvious reasons.

The bonus itself is fine. Having the song that applies it stack with both trickery cleric and rogue levels might be a bit much, though.

[ManicMalcolm]

Im Playing a Maxed out Bard so my question ,
Will these new skills get retconed in to existing LvL30 Bards or will you be giving any Maxed lvl Bards a grandfather clause. ?

Not going to Roll going to keep on with Him , I believe you have to play the hand your dealt

EDIT by Xerah: Removed ranting.

[AstralUniverse]

Can we please not have Open Lock in any shape or form on any of the bonuses of this class except the base bonus to skills? I understand the thematic intent but... just big no. For obvious reasons.

The bonus itself is fine. Having the song that applies it stack with both trickery cleric and rogue levels might be a bit much, though.

I really dont think we should introduce any quarter breaker builds which are actually fun and functional to play. It's disastrous and I fear there might be one or two being enabled by that particular bard song.

[strong yeet]

lock pick bard song...

no wonder you didn't want to show me!

Anyway Nitro is right. Some of these don't quite seem like the minor sideline tiny baby benefits they were made out to be, which really doesn't matter now that we can all look at them.

please no lock pick bard song btw

[Mattamue]

The song will give 17 skill points, which is 2 less than vanilla.

I think a 30 vanilla bard would have been able to hit the 55 umd to wear rogue leathers before the change. Not sure how it would change a 27 bard 3 rogue.

[AstralUniverse]

its gonna look very silly if str bards with lowish cleric investment will reach quarterbreaking tier now. very silly.

[Garvik]

Can we please not have Open Lock in any shape or form on any of the bonuses of this class except the base bonus to skills? I understand the thematic intent but... just big no. For obvious reasons.

The bonus itself is fine. Having the song that applies it stack with both trickery cleric and rogue levels might be a bit much, though.

I really dont think we should introduce any quarter breaker builds which are actually fun and functional to play. It's disastrous and I fear there might be one or two being enabled by that particular bard song.

Current lvl 30 bard gives a +19 to all skills, including Open Lock.
Proposed lvl 30 bard gives +10 to all skills and an additional +7 to Open Lock with that particular song, totalling to a +17.

This is still a net nerf compared to what is possible now. What /should/ be looked at, however, is the song gaining levels from trickery cleric and rogue that do not exceed the bard level. Example:

12 trickery cleric / 15 bard / 3 rogue
Base bard song: +5 to all skills
lvl 30 pilfering poems (since both the 12 cleric and 3 rogue levels count): +7 Open Lock
Trickery domain: +7 Open Lock
Total: +19 Open Lock

That is the same bonus a pure lvl 30 bard got before the changes with the exception that this class spread gets access to 33 ranks in Open Lock. Should probably make the trickery cleric and rogue bonus not exceed half the bard levels to adress this.

[Dr. B]

its gonna look very silly if str bards with lowish cleric investment will reach quarterbreaking tier now. very silly.

To be fair, a multiclass build with <15 cleric levels is gonna be awful in many situations, especially in late game PvE/PvP, and moreso if you need to sacrifice ability points into dex and skill points into open lock.

[Bunnysmack]

New cultural meta: All singing clergy are hunted down and destroyed as the settlements universally decide they are a worse menace than any warlock or pale master could ever hope to become!

[Garvik]

its gonna look very silly if str bards with lowish cleric investment will reach quarterbreaking tier now. very silly.

To be fair, a multiclass build with <15 cleric levels is gonna be awful in many situations, especially in late game PvE/PvP, and moreso if you need to sacrifice ability points into dex and skill points into open lock.

Quite so. Even with these changes, str bards will not be able to break any quarter locks. And whatever concoction of bard/cleric/rogue you can brew up for that task will be far from functional or enjoyable in anything else.

[Dr. B]

Ah, I forgot about the need to dip rogue levels. So that's what, 13 max cleric levels? You'll be a one trick pony who'll have a very hard time getting to 30 and totally dependent on wands for buffs.

[garrbear758]

Current bards will be offered a relevel. They will not be grandfathered.

[Garvik]

Ah, I forgot about the need to dip rogue levels. So that's what, 13 max cleric levels? You'll be a one trick pony who'll have a very hard time getting to 30 and totally dependent on wands for buffs.

Twelve cleric levels max, no points left for str and con as well as for either wis or cha. While the bit on the song stacking with cleric and rogue makes is marginally easier to reach certain thresholds, the journey to lvl 30 will be far from pleasant. And once you got there ... you are still a one-trick pony that falls over from a stiff breeze.


But to get back onto the main topic: Releasing the full list made a big difference. There are some really juicy, situationally awesome songs in there that I can't wait to try out. Basically turned my initial reception from 'meh' to 'yes please'.

[The Hazards of Love]

Full list here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZu ... sp=sharing

They're not on the PGCC yet, but in the next few days will turn up there.

I've read them.

A lot of these songs seem to encourage builds and synergies that just don't exist, and probably never will. Having a few songs that make barbarian levels count for bard song isn't enough to make a bard/barbarian work. Some of them are cool, and really I'm here for what you guys are doing conceptually (I especially love using ESF perform to grant special effects), but I hope you guys go back to the drawing board with most of this stuff.

Also, I really hope the Open Lock/Disable Trap song is nixed. The one limiter of that "build" used to be that you had to have a 30 bard partner to quarter break, but now it can be a single character with that song.

[Nitro]

Twelve cleric levels max, no points left for str and con as well as for either wis or cha. While the bit on the song stacking with cleric and rogue makes is marginally easier to reach certain thresholds, the journey to lvl 30 will be far from pleasant. And once you got there ... you are still a one-trick pony that falls over from a stiff breeze.

It's not like the people who currently make one-trick ponies to quarterbreak are stopped by being a one-trick pony with a particularly cancerous trick.

[Xerah]

Full list here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZu ... sp=sharing

They're not on the PGCC yet, but in the next few days will turn up there.

I've read them.

A lot of these songs seem to encourage builds and synergies that just don't exist, and probably never will. Having a few songs that make barbarian levels count for bard song isn't enough to make a bard/barbarian work. Some of them are cool, and really I'm here for what you guys are doing conceptually (I especially love using ESF perform to grant special effects), but I hope you guys go back to the drawing board with most of this stuff.

Also, I really hope the Open Lock/Disable Trap song is nixed. The one limiter of that "build" used to be that you had to have a 30 bard partner to quarter break, but now it can be a single character with that song.

Not everything needs to be at the very top of the meta to be useful. Scraping these unique synergies because some people only look at that aspect is a pretty poor approach. To me, these look great. I'd certainly take some time to think of how these synergies would add to any bard build I'm planning.

[ManicMalcolm]

Current bards will be offered a relevel. They will not be grandfathered.

By re-Level do you mean a total rebuild or, just a drop of 4 to 5LvL's ?

[garrbear758]

Most of those synergies are more for flavor than for any large benefit. We specifically avoided combinations that would be optimal for those synergies.

The open lock song is under further discussion, but as it stands this change still makes it a harder/worse build than what currently exists.

[garrbear758]

Current bards will be offered a relevel. They will not be grandfathered.

By re-Level do you mean a total rebuild or, just a drop of 4 to 5LvL's ?

A drop to level 1 without losing your xp or deleting your character so you can freely relevel. A total rebuild where you create a new character will not be given as 1. It's not necessary for this change. 2. I don't want the DMs to defenestrate me.

[Garvik]

Full list here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZu ... sp=sharing

They're not on the PGCC yet, but in the next few days will turn up there.

Also, I really hope the Open Lock/Disable Trap song is nixed. The one limiter of that "build" used to be that you had to have a 30 bard partner to quarter break, but now it can be a single character with that song.

I'd hate to see it removed completely. I think being able to push oneself up enough to disarm/open end of dungeon chests as a Bard is a nice bit of flavour. Certainly better than pixie pocket rogues. I do concur that the synergy with trickery cleric is troublesome, though. That can be dealt with by either weakening or removing the synergy without touching the rest of the song for the normal bards, however.