RIP Gnolls :c

[Dalenger]

I'm not here to rage or insult the dev team, and its been no small secret for quite a while now that much of the most recent server leadership has not been a fan of monster RP on the server. And sometimes not without good reason: nothing is more immersion breaking then when a kobold emotes making puppy dog eyes or a gnoll decides to play fetch in the hub (to to mention the occasional non-PG-13 rated incidents which seem to be all the forums talk about when they think of gnolls). But I'd still like to ask the devs to reconsider their decision.

Still, from one player who has played gnolls on the server since I joined over 6 years ago, I have always considered them one of the most fun and interesting races in the UD. Whenever I didn't have time to play a consistant character, I always loved to roll up a gnoll and play bodyguard for some low-level PCs in the sewers, or go around spicing up things a bit on the surface with some low-level bridge-trolling or the like, just to give the nearby city guards some fun. Gnolls have played a dynamic and creative part of the living history of the Underdark, ranging from agents of Drow houses to packs strong enough to rival any power in the city. Unfortunately, the most rewarding RP from gnolls (and other monster races in general) only really crops up when enough of them decide to play at one time to form a community, which will now be basically impossible since gnolls are now locked behind a reward.

I was always under the impression that the reward system was intended to help keep races and character concepts that should not be seen frequently on the server (RDDs, vamps, tieflings, etc) rare, not limit the creation of races that the devs has considered poorly RPed in the past. I don't see how limiting gnolls to a reward will do anything other than reduce their numbers even lower than they already are, so that when the devs remove them completely there will be less people to complain about it. I would quite kindly ask the dev team to reconsider their decision to remove one of areliths only monster races from non-reward status, and instead ask them to perhaps lock it behind 20-rpr and add a mandatory "definitive gnoll policy" reading (similar to Drow's) to the wiki so that there is no question about what a gnoll is and isn't in the mind of what the devs intend for Arelith.

Failing that, I would simply like to make said this gnoll player's sadness at seeing one of his favorite races get locked behind a reward.

[Good Character]

Curious why this move was made. Is it because now gnolls don't have the negative INT anymore?

[Security_Blanket]

Since Gnolls require a normal award to play do you still need another award to be a Gnoll pirate? I didn't think Gnolls were that much of an issue but I never go in the Underdark so I wouldn't know.

[Dalenger]

Curious why this move was made. Is it because now gnolls don't have the negative INT anymore?

The most recent dev team has been pretty outspoken against monster races for a while now. There has generally been an inconsistency in the quality of monster RP: for every couple dozen well-played and theme appropriate monsers, there is one "UWU snugglez" gnoll, "*cute baby-dragon noises, pet me I am smol* kobold, or "smear-the-hub-walls-with-dung-and-wait-for-someone-to-say-something" goblin. And on top of there, gnolls in particular have had some very not PG-13 RP crop up in small groups from time to time. Monster races seem the pull out the worst in the worst kind of players... but I still think have a place on the server, for reasons I've mentioned above.

I'm not completely unsympathetic with the dev's move, but I still think they should reconsider the move to normal rewards in lieu of other options.

[DM Rex]

The negative int modifier remains.

[Good Character]

The most recent dev team has been pretty outspoken against monster races for a while now. There has generally been an inconsistency in the quality of monster RP: for every couple dozen well-played and theme appropriate monsers, there is one "UWU snugglez" gnoll, "*cute baby-dragon noises, pet me I am smol* kobold, or "smear-the-hub-walls-with-dung-and-wait-for-someone-to-say-something" goblin. And on top of there, gnolls in particular have had some very not PG-13 RP crop up in small groups from time to time. Monster races seem the pull out the worst in the worst kind of players... but I still think have a place on the server, for reasons I've mentioned above.

I'm not completely unsympathetic with the dev's move, but I still think they should reconsider the move to normal rewards in lieu of other options.

If that is the case, large shame. Ironically, some of the best roleplay I have ever had was when I was playing monster races.

Maybe rather than lock it behind rewards, which have honestly no bearing to roleplay a character well, possibly they can be locked behind a token that can earned via an application? Demonstrate you understand the bearings of a certain monster race, and you can play the other monster races from here on out till you are stripped of your token.

[Itikar]

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=29519#p247727

Obligatory reference, which is why I really saw this coming.

That said, I don't think this is a positive change, and it will simply decrease the number of gnolls. It even risks to make them roleplayed even more poorly, because let's be frank about one thing, the award system has some good qualities, but it is not a solid guarantee of rp. It is a solid guarantee of grind, in whatever shape or form, to get a decent award you need to play a character and grind it up to 26.

Maybe minor would have been better, but overall what we need is more attention to the roleplay of the various races, monstrous and not really, and I do not think that award lock improves this much.

Sure, people who want to play a gnoll will maybe think twice before spending an award to make one, but then again, that hardly means they will roleplay a gnoll as intended. You could make the same reasoning for every race, really. I can see the awards as something that limits the numbers of a race, as OP correctly pointed out, but gnolls are not an uncommon race, so that point is moot.

[Irongron]

Another UD race is scheduled to replace gnolls at the standard tier, we are just waiting on completion of the associated modelling work.

[Dalenger]

Another UD race is scheduled to replace gnolls at the standard tier, we are just waiting on completion of the associated modelling work.

That's nice to know, at least. There's always an argument for removing races whenever you add new races, just to keep the community from getting too diverse and to allow for fresh lines of RP to be explored. So if that's your intention, I suppose I can understand why you'd move a race to reward-status.

Still, it makes me sad to see one of my favorite races go. Thanks for reading, IG

[Tyrantos]

Sad to see them go, but may we ask what kind of race it is to be added? Is it by any chance hobgoblin that will become a standard race?

[mirvv]

I dont think the current Andunor is diverse. the most ratio what i am seeing (at GMT 20:00-23:00) is 60-70% human (outcast/slave) 10-30% drow and the rest combined of other races. I dont know the background of the changes, nor played a gnoll ever...

however there will be always players who play the current race very badly, we should not take this as example or put as case against the whole race and players included. As general rule which is usually happens here to take all these *non authentic* rp case by case like reports. There are awkward drow moments all around which totally drops me out of the universe of arelith and yes there are joking silly goblins around dungthrowing, however to say the monster rp is simple and lack of options (mostly from players who never played a monster race more than 15 levels probably, for two weeks) is just shortsightining. if it would be the case i havent played a monster goblins (multiple chars) for last 10++ years in underdark. Its just not the same as human rp, but still can have similiar events, hapenings around as well and as resposne many finds it delightfull and worthy to play.
( I would love to see sometimes goblin clan wars and some competition however we have not enough goblin players for that. )

There are many options/how to play a monster, the lore is deep, just most of the options are gone when you do racial rp with only human / drow and their stereotyphs which also very simple in most of the times. The gnolls have their own unique way of rp, from what i could see, this half animal wild wolf horde like thing, all with Alpha's and such, which is addition to the enviroment.

As last thought for the proper monster rp: You ask to play a monster player properly rp'd but you cant be a monster in underdark. You cant steal and rob ppl in underdark without publicly hanged the next day about it. Small crimes goes to intercitial court to meet a city ban. And when a monster player starts playing a mosnter "properly" the whole City kinda rebels against the whole concept becuase its disrupts the peace.

I havent seen any conflict in Ud for weeks now which was not caused by 'Oh look a surfacer', which mostly jsut gives a ' shrugs ' and 'nay its a trade city, they come and goes quick' and move on. If i rob a character in UD out of City, than next day we meet in the Hub and sooner or later some higher level buddies will meet me too and its escalate into who has more higher level buddies or get bored of constant pvp / when Team decide enough from the next conflict in the City.

And if you cant play a monster to be monster, than whats the reason to play a monster, usually worst than a human character counterpart. You play for a monster to have option to play a non-human cultural society, to try somerthing new other than UnderSims around, at least for me. But it's very hard to avoid instant City ban, endless pvp and other attrocities (IC / OOC).

If DEV wants to transform the UD without monster races, its fine, it is their server, their deicision and i will accept it, just it would be nice to know if this is the case on long term. But Ud without monster races is kinda like a second surface, which i felt the most part already. Removing monsters from the server would lose a lot of its uniquness and attractivity, as well some players too ( i think) .

[Dalenger]

Sad to see them go, but may we ask what kind of race it is to be added? Is it by any chance hobgoblin that will become a standard race?

I honestly really hope not. Their player model is ugly AF, and we already have a goblinoid race. IG also made it sould like they're working on models for it, so maybe... illithids? Though A) I could never see them being anything less than a greater reward and B) they would never not be immediately PVPed by virtually every other UD race, especially drow. We'll see, I guess. Still sad bout gnolls

[Tyrantos]

They have earlier stated that they were planning on adding hobgoblisn as a free race though, and that they wanted to make dynamic models for them, which is why I asked! I doubt we'll see illithids. Maybe we'll see gloamlings or something?

[Skarain]

*Adds in Gibberlings as a PC race*

"You thought Goblins were bad?!"



On a serious note, I am fine with being a reward, as long as not greater than normal. The race is not that special to warrant Greater.

Looking forward to see what comes in next.

[IanPatron]

I'll be honest. Almost every gnoll I saw had in their description "has an intelligent gleam in the eyes" or something denoting their intellect. I think I saw one gnoll that was savage and primal. The rest were pretty much smart dog people. I even saw a well groomed pretty gnoll who also bore a low charisma(ugh).

Perhaps the change to normal award is best.

[Flower Power]

I'll be honest. Almost every gnoll I saw had in their description "has an intelligent gleam in the eyes" or something denoting their intellect. I think I saw one gnoll that was savage and primal. The rest were pretty much smart dog people. I even saw a well groomed pretty gnoll who also bore a low charisma(ugh).

Perhaps the change to normal award is best.

But hyenas are biologically related to cats and share many social behaviors with cats instead of dogs.

Cat gnolls when.

[Dalenger]

Almost every gnoll I saw had in their description "has an intelligent gleam in the eyes" or something denoting their intellect. I think I saw one gnoll that was savage and primal. The rest were pretty much smart dog people.

As a counterpoint to this, forgotten realm lore does not paint gnolls are savage and primal. In any FR underdark novel which mentions gnolls, they are brought up as tough, semi-intelligent, and most of all versatile henchmen and bodyguards to duergar, svirfneblin, drow, and even humans. Gnolls really shouldn't exist as archmages or anything of the kind, but the idea of hiring a gnoll ranger to guide your way through a winding path of tunnels using its animalisticly-keen senses is 100% theme-appropriate. There's nothing spectacularly strange about an independent and modestly cunning gnoll making their way into a trade city like Andunor in order to carve a better life... if anything, it would be even more expected than seeing independent hobgoblins and goblins, which are both now equal or easier than gnolls to play. I've always really quite disliked the "Gnolls are like animals" entry in the wiki because its really just not true... gnolls are not animals. They aren't primal or any more instinctively driven than any other monster race.

The rest were pretty much smart dog people. ho also bore a low charisma(ugh).

To be fair, gnolls had some of the worst starting stat debuffs in the game. To give them any chance of being half-decent in PVE or PVP, you're forced to dump cha in order to even somewhat match up with your human counterparts playing a very small variety of builds. For everything else, gnolls were a direct downgrade which made buffing cha, a stat that only matters for a few classes, 100% a gimping move.

Anyway, its not like gnolls were the only ones doing this. If I had a nickle for every 8 wis wizard going around giving philosophy seminars in the tower or 8 cha fighters diplomatically working their way up the guard, I'd be Jeff Bezos. I've never been a fan of how D&D does racial stats, as it does nothing but pigeonhole races into the class of whatever Tolkin's named character of that particular race played... but I digress.

Perhaps the change to normal award is best.

Alright, so lets say that you convinced me that gnolls should be played as more primal, less charismatic creatures on the server (which I don't fully disagree with, though the whole point of playing most PCs in D&D is that they're someone "different" than average joe). I'll even agree with you to an extent: my favorite gnoll RP has been when gnolls fit their theme. They are gruffy, somewhat untrusting, boisterous, and short-term-benefit driven creatures. Moving them to reward status and forcing people to submit a DM application fixes this... how? Suddenly, instead of being allowed to roll up a mundane less-than-meta-built throw-away gnoll and then play them like the short-term-thinking somewhat unplanned creatures they are supposed to be (the kind of character which adds to a setting and plays into others' RP), anyone who is going to make a gnoll now has to spend a reward they grinded for. So now every gnoll you see will have been pre-planned and its long-term RP intention will need to be announced to and approved by the DM team all in advance of it being made. This is so against everything that is going to work towards helping move gnolls towards the mundane and away from the overplayed "intelligent gleam in the eyes" counter-stereotype you're trash talking.

I don't mean to jump all over you for your very short post, but somehow you managed to hit everything I disagree about this change directly on the head in a much more succinct way than I ever could have. To fix the issues gnolls have, they should be put behind 20RPR and given more guidance and/or a mandatory reading in the wiki... not tossed in the bin, only to be played when someone with a normal reward decides they want to be special by playing a dog-man.

EDIT: Mistaken about the DM-perms, that's only for sencliff starts. The rest of what I said still stands on its own, though

[Drowboy]

Are they app only suddenly?

[Dalenger]

Are they app only suddenly?

says so on the wiki

Oh wait, I'm a dumby. That's only for sencliff starts.

[Baron Saturday]

I think you might be reading more into this than there is, Dalenger. Rotations of what "special" races are available at what tiers happens continuously, if slowly. It helps regulate racial populations - it's not meant as a punishment of or judgement upon the people currently playing that race.

[Petrifictus]

Karstaag is disapointed with this. Will the other monster races too be moved as rewards due to strong dislike to the monstrous RP by the Arelith crew?

As someone who had passion for monster RP, we always seem to be doing it ”wrong.”

If we follow the lore and RP them right, we do it wrong as it breaks ”Be Nice” or hurts feelings.

If we water down our RP to work with pg13, we still do it wrong because now its too friendly.

If halfling start to cuddle monster, its the monster who gets punished. Same if said monster eats the halfling.

The strong dislike and lack of support by the crew has been killing the monster RP slowly.

Guess we get another shamed race that look like human/elf/dwarf/halfling to replace gnolls. :/

[Curve]

I can’t imagine fitting more half truths, unfounded accusations and conspiracy theories into one post and still managing to crown yourself a victim.

[MalKalz]

Karstaag is disapointed with this. Will the other monster races too be moved as rewards due to strong dislike to the monstrous RP by the Arelith crew?

As someone who had passion for monster RP, we always seem to be doing it ”wrong.”

If we follow the lore and RP them right, we do it wrong as it breaks ”Be Nice” or hurts feelings.

If we water down our RP to work with pg13, we still do it wrong because now its too friendly.

If halfling start to cuddle monster, its the monster who gets punished. Same if said monster eats the halfling.

The strong dislike and lack of support by the crew has been killing the monster RP slowly.

Guess we get another shamed race that look like human/elf/dwarf/halfling to replace gnolls. :/

I disagree with a lot of your post Petrifictus.

There is no stance that monstrous RP is bad by the team. There is plenty of instances where this is done right. There are also instances of it when it is done wrong. If you got spoken to about something there must have been a reason for it - its not just arbitrary selection.

I do not think its so much an issue of monster roleplay; however, the play style being employed in some instances. There is often a stance, which is present throughout the entire server - not exclusive to monsters, where you must win. And, when a player assumes that stance, they forego thinking about how it impacts others and can hamper RP and fun on the server.

It is needed to be remembered that monster races are monsters. They are not something you want to bunk up with, hug or otherwise befriend. They should be feared, treaded with caution or shown the appropriate level of intolerance towards them. There are some instances that people just use these races to play weird fetishes - those are obviously addressed. Other instances we have seen some stellar roleplay through the race and through how people are interpreting them. All that can be asked is people play them appropriately and that people interpret them in the appropriate setting.

And, no. Both sides would be addressed - if a Halfling was close to a monster and cuddling, both would be spoken to. You are just not privy of them being spoken to which goes with the anonymous approach.

You really need to become less attached to this and look at it objectively.

[DM Rex]

Let me honestly TL;DR this for you.

It has nothing to do with a particular race's roleplay, presentation of the race, etc.
This creature model had two models, and it's being moved to a reward to make way for another monster race. That's it.
No need to read further into this.

[JoeKickAss]

Let me honestly TL;DR this for you.

It has nothing to do with a particular race's roleplay, presentation of the race, etc.
This creature model had two models, and it's being moved to a reward to make way for another monster race. That's it.
No need to read further into this.

Gnolls concepts generally require "a pack". If it needs to have a reward, maybe a minor one? Means that anyone who has been a PC before can go one.