Great to have options here, particularly because it fits more thematic concepts. However, for a sorcerer this really hurts. It hurts because the sorcerer has even less variation now that this spell has been broken up into many spells rather than just 1 that might be affected by streams or something in the same way that Flameweapon/Darkfire are.
Possible solution: When a sorcerer takes Ice Shield, give it Fire Shield and visa versa.
Possible solution2: Elemental Shield, change stream for changing damage.
Elemental Shields
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Elemental Shields
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Kenji
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Re: Elemental Shields
The initial design for the elemental shields was to make them all -streamable. But due to engine limitations, the initial casting animation would be limited to arcane VFX, similar to the current "Elemental Weapon", instead of the various fire/ice/lightning VFX and SFX.
The other problem was the mechanical aspect of it: Fire Shield (originally named Elemental Shield) provides 50% Damage Immunity to Fire and Cold damage. Frost Shield, if made streamable, would make sense to provide the same DI. However, the lightning shield would be different.
Could we have made it all -streamable and have different DI? Yes. But lightning shield would be and should be a mechanically distinct spell from the Fire/Frost Shields much like Acid Sheath. It was then decided to separate Lightning Shield from Fire and Frost Shield.
Now Lightning Shield has its own cool VFX while Elemental Shield (-streamable with fire and frost) looked weird due to the caster having a fiery VFX while casting then gets a Frost shield. So it was decided that they all become separate spells.
Lightning Shield, if streamable, also wouldn't be able to be separated as a 5th level spell if it were streamed via Elemental Shield.
Lastly, this also expanded future possibilities of certain Clerical domains getting their matching damage shields (except acid sheath, ofc) for thematic purposes.
TL;DR: It was mainly due to aesthetics and a few mechanical reasons that the spells were separated instead of streamable.
Edit: Regarding allowing both Fire Shield and Frost Shield to become available as the spontaneous caster takes one or the other: I vaguely remember how having more spells over the limit of spells slot messes with the spontaneous caster's spellbook or the character, especially during level-ups. It may require some research and testing.
The other problem was the mechanical aspect of it: Fire Shield (originally named Elemental Shield) provides 50% Damage Immunity to Fire and Cold damage. Frost Shield, if made streamable, would make sense to provide the same DI. However, the lightning shield would be different.
Could we have made it all -streamable and have different DI? Yes. But lightning shield would be and should be a mechanically distinct spell from the Fire/Frost Shields much like Acid Sheath. It was then decided to separate Lightning Shield from Fire and Frost Shield.
Now Lightning Shield has its own cool VFX while Elemental Shield (-streamable with fire and frost) looked weird due to the caster having a fiery VFX while casting then gets a Frost shield. So it was decided that they all become separate spells.
Lightning Shield, if streamable, also wouldn't be able to be separated as a 5th level spell if it were streamed via Elemental Shield.
Lastly, this also expanded future possibilities of certain Clerical domains getting their matching damage shields (except acid sheath, ofc) for thematic purposes.
TL;DR: It was mainly due to aesthetics and a few mechanical reasons that the spells were separated instead of streamable.
Edit: Regarding allowing both Fire Shield and Frost Shield to become available as the spontaneous caster takes one or the other: I vaguely remember how having more spells over the limit of spells slot messes with the spontaneous caster's spellbook or the character, especially during level-ups. It may require some research and testing.
Re: Elemental Shields
The end result is going to be that spontaneous casters will very rarely use these. My example in particular is a True Flame, who cannot afford to take more than one of these spells given the opportunity cost.
RP only starts at 30 if you're a coward.
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Kenji
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Re: Elemental Shields
The end result turned out to be that all 3 of the spontaneous casters can and have taken the elemental shields of their choice where the trade-offs aren't as bad as one would assume. In this case, choices matter, examples are shown below:
The only time where selections are really tight is Favored Soul, but that's the beauty of it: the favored soul either goes into the melee line or the caster line, not both.
True Flame Spell Selections
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
4th Level:
Fire Shield
Frost Shield (Hak) ✓
Ice Storm ✓
Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm
Wall of Fire ✓
Wall of Ice (Hak) ✓
5th Level:
Ball Lightning ✓
Bigby's Interposing Hand
Cone of Cold ✓
Dark Bolt (Hak)
Firebrand ✓
Lightning Shield (Hak) ✓
Shaman Spell Selections:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
4th Level:
Cure serious wounds ✓
Dispel magic
Fear
Fire Shield
Flame strike
Freedom of movement ✓
Frost Shield ✓
Hold monster
Mass camouflage
Stoneskin ✓
Summon creature IV
Polymorph Self
War Cry
5th Level:
Cure critical wounds
Deathward ✓
Ice storm
Inferno
Monstrous regeneration
Slay living
Spell resistance ✓
Summon creature V
Wall of fire
Vine mine
Wall of Ice
Haste ✓
Feeblemind
Lesser Spell Breach ✓
Lightning Shield ✓
Favored Soul (battle oriented)
4th Level Spells
Cure critical wounds
Death ward ✓
Dismissal
Divine power ✓
Freedom of movement ✓
Hammer of the gods
Inflict critical wounds
Greater magic weapon
Neutralize poison
Poison
Restoration
Sound Lance
Summon creature IV
Phantasmal Killer
Stoneskin ✓
Slow
Improved Invisibility ✓
Frost Shield
Flame Shield
5th level spells
Battletide ✓
Circle of doom
Flame strike
Healing circle
Monstrous regeneration
Raise dead
Slay living
Spell resistance ✓
Summon creature V
Evil Blight
True seeing ✓
Enervation
Energy Buffer
Lesser Planar Binding
Haste ✓
Lightning Shield ✓
Last edited by Kenji on Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chris a gogo
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Re: Elemental Shields
To be fair i have both lighting and flame shields on my true flame, you don't lose anything of importance by taking the extra damage shield.
Re: Elemental Shields
More Evo spells will always be in the TF's favour because it actually gives them some options. TF's only just now have more evo spells available than they get spell selections for several levels. When they first came out they didn't even have enough evo spells to pick from so they had to pick non-evo filler spells on some levels.
Sidenote: Never ever EVER pick cone of cold over darkbolt. Darkbolt is disgustingly strong in a TF's hands where you get to do infinite damage and infinite dazes.
Sidenote: Never ever EVER pick cone of cold over darkbolt. Darkbolt is disgustingly strong in a TF's hands where you get to do infinite damage and infinite dazes.
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Kenji
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Re: Elemental Shields
When I picked up Darkbolt in its earliest iteration, its VFX was underwhelming and the uses were limited to PvE CC (or unprepared non-dex PCs with no mind immunity).
If used on a single target, Darkbolt deals <120 dmg even if they all land, and the bolts spread out when vs multiple enemies much like IGMS, not Firebrand/Ball Lightning. At higher level content, with the AB weapon to touch attack spell AB nerf, it doesn't always consistently land for PvE at higher level contents unless the TF gears into dex, which is certainly viable. At that point, the TF usually travels with groups, anyways, where the role of the TF is to dish out more damage via Firebrand, Ball Lightning, Wall of Ice/Fire, Meteor Swarm, or etc.
I've found more uses with maximized Cone of Cold to farm multiple resource nodes at once than Darkbolt. The spell looks good on paper and works well in certain areas, but easily negated by mind-immune enemies or have its damage dwarfed by IGMS.
If used on a single target, Darkbolt deals <120 dmg even if they all land, and the bolts spread out when vs multiple enemies much like IGMS, not Firebrand/Ball Lightning. At higher level content, with the AB weapon to touch attack spell AB nerf, it doesn't always consistently land for PvE at higher level contents unless the TF gears into dex, which is certainly viable. At that point, the TF usually travels with groups, anyways, where the role of the TF is to dish out more damage via Firebrand, Ball Lightning, Wall of Ice/Fire, Meteor Swarm, or etc.
I've found more uses with maximized Cone of Cold to farm multiple resource nodes at once than Darkbolt. The spell looks good on paper and works well in certain areas, but easily negated by mind-immune enemies or have its damage dwarfed by IGMS.
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chris a gogo
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Re: Elemental Shields
Cone of cold IMO. Is a poor spell choice when compared to fire brand and ball lightning, due to there targeting allowing there use in mixed groups of allies and enemies, it has no advantage in damage it can't kill trolls and it is massively limited in range and AoE.
In fact ice storm is a better choice which is a level lower cold spell has the same damage and will hit everything in it's AoE as it can't be evaded.
Dark bolt is a much better spell choice as it got better AoE and has a daze effect so it fills a role that taking another elemental damage spell doesn't, so it's good when in a group or when solo against mid level mobs you don't want to waste spell components on.
This leaves one pick left so taking lighting shield is a good option for a TF.
Picking cone of cold would be purely a thematic choice, as mechanically it's the worse option
In fact ice storm is a better choice which is a level lower cold spell has the same damage and will hit everything in it's AoE as it can't be evaded.
Dark bolt is a much better spell choice as it got better AoE and has a daze effect so it fills a role that taking another elemental damage spell doesn't, so it's good when in a group or when solo against mid level mobs you don't want to waste spell components on.
This leaves one pick left so taking lighting shield is a good option for a TF.
Picking cone of cold would be purely a thematic choice, as mechanically it's the worse option
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Kenji
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Re: Elemental Shields
Noone's picking Cone of Cold over Firebrand/Ball Lightning. Again, Darkbolt's effects look good on paper, in its actual practical use, however, means:
A mid-level TF now needs to gear Cha, Con, and Dex instead of just 2, this definitely cuts into QoL as their intermediate gear now just requires more tempering and cost.
An epic-level TF needs to gear 3 stats, as well, in order to consistently land darkbolts on mobs that may or may not be CC'd by daze.
Darkbolt's damage part works as follows: (No spell components required)
2d8*7 vs 1 target or 7 targets with 2d8, maximized would mean 16 damage on 7 targets or 112 damage on 1 target. Daze for 1 round if the Will Save fails, no mind immunity present, AND the darkbolt hits (likely never vs a dex character). For PvP this is easily negated. For PvE this can be inconsistent.
IGMS: (No spell components required even if maximized using 9th level spell slots)
2d6*10 vs 1 target, 2d6*20 vs 2 targets, or 2d6*20 vs 7 targets, or 2d6*20 vs 20 targets,
120dmg vs 1 target, 240dmg vs 2 targets, 36dmg vs 6 targets with 7th gets 24dmg, or 12dmg vs 20 targets. Damage is negated with Shield Spell AND GSF: Abjuration (mainly for PvP)
If the target has DI or DR against fire and/or electric damage, IGMS is the default spell, anyways.
I personally picked Cone of Cold for farming various nodes of materials, 3 maximized 270 cold damage will play into the 280 damage calculation for maximizing gains from a node. Did I ever state it's a mechanically better choice? No. But Darkbolt as a trade-off isn't game-altering for a TF in this case is the point I'm trying to make. Nitro's overestimation of Darkbolt's usefulness will get many TFs reading this thread killed disappointed when they realize the CC isn't as consistent if the TFs aren't properly geared for it.
Edit: This thread is for Elemental Shield feedbacks, not Darkbolt vs other Evo spells as a choice for TF spell selection. I politely encourage anyone with an interest in continuing this off-topic to move the discussion to Nitro's True Flame Spell Selection thread.
A mid-level TF now needs to gear Cha, Con, and Dex instead of just 2, this definitely cuts into QoL as their intermediate gear now just requires more tempering and cost.
An epic-level TF needs to gear 3 stats, as well, in order to consistently land darkbolts on mobs that may or may not be CC'd by daze.
Darkbolt's damage part works as follows: (No spell components required)
2d8*7 vs 1 target or 7 targets with 2d8, maximized would mean 16 damage on 7 targets or 112 damage on 1 target. Daze for 1 round if the Will Save fails, no mind immunity present, AND the darkbolt hits (likely never vs a dex character). For PvP this is easily negated. For PvE this can be inconsistent.
IGMS: (No spell components required even if maximized using 9th level spell slots)
2d6*10 vs 1 target, 2d6*20 vs 2 targets, or 2d6*20 vs 7 targets, or 2d6*20 vs 20 targets,
120dmg vs 1 target, 240dmg vs 2 targets, 36dmg vs 6 targets with 7th gets 24dmg, or 12dmg vs 20 targets. Damage is negated with Shield Spell AND GSF: Abjuration (mainly for PvP)
If the target has DI or DR against fire and/or electric damage, IGMS is the default spell, anyways.
I personally picked Cone of Cold for farming various nodes of materials, 3 maximized 270 cold damage will play into the 280 damage calculation for maximizing gains from a node. Did I ever state it's a mechanically better choice? No. But Darkbolt as a trade-off isn't game-altering for a TF in this case is the point I'm trying to make. Nitro's overestimation of Darkbolt's usefulness will get many TFs reading this thread killed disappointed when they realize the CC isn't as consistent if the TFs aren't properly geared for it.
Edit: This thread is for Elemental Shield feedbacks, not Darkbolt vs other Evo spells as a choice for TF spell selection. I politely encourage anyone with an interest in continuing this off-topic to move the discussion to Nitro's True Flame Spell Selection thread.