RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

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Duchess Says
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:39 pm

I wouldn't say notions such as copyright, parody and fair use have any bearing here. We're just playing a video game. It's not a published work and certainly not for profit. Nobody would get sued even if they sat there typing in the entirety of a song or book word for word. But if you just have your bard play Johnny Cash songs barely bothering to update your lyrics I have the right to roll my eyes and think less of you creatively particularly next to another bard who writes original lyrics or even researches obscure real-world folk music.

It's a matter of +taste+ more than anything else. Quoting the bible may be in bad taste as you don't know what the religious beliefs of other players might be (and in my opinion you're better off not knowing) but it is also such a foundation of western culture and literature you can use or better, adapt passages if you're smart about it. Same with Shakespeare, philosophy, classic literature and so on. It is fair game but you may ask yourself whether you're using it as a shortcut to avoid creative RP or whether you're being clever in adapting it to the situation or making commentary.

Taking whole chunks of something in modern pop culture is a risk because it can feel lazy, cheap and too familiar. You can't name your wizard Dumbledore and you shouldn't lift his dialog or chunks of text from the books either. Quick references tend to fare better but they can get old quick and tend to read as OOC wisecracks rather than serious RP. I have seen it work well too and it is not off the table and of course this is all just my opinion not some decree I expect to see followed.

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Dwarven Warbard » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:08 pm

My character, Bremus Drumsplitter, performs quite often at the playhouse under the Nomad.
Every song he performs I have researched and pulled either from public domain or from Forgotten Realms sources. When asked, or occasionally when he performs, he will given an intro and talk about where he picked it up in his travels.

Arelith is a roleplay server. Some players enjoy entertaining others and go to considerable efforts to do so, often with little to no recognition for the time the invest in doing so. I really don't think that a class like Bard, when played to entertain others, needs to be gate kept because the player isn't a skilled poet or song writer. Personally, I would refrain from using anything that is overly famous or, like the Bible, tied too closely to matters of real world faith. I have on occasion researched hymnals to see how they were constructed so that I could write my own.

If a player wants to play a Bard and isn't sure where to find material that is in the public domain, drop me a line. I am here to support and enjoy interactions with my fellow players.

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by chris a gogo » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:34 pm

My Gnome wizard would sing the "beer beer beer" song from the bards tale every time they were role playing drinking in an Inn.

You want to use something that fits the character and is something that would fit the setting go right ahead I honestly wouldn't care where you had got it from so long as it adds alittle extra something to an encounter/performance.

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Anime Sword Fighter
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm

thinking about the time a bard in wharftown just copy-pasted "I'm on a Boat" by The Lonely Island with either minimal or no alterations for some festival

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by godhand- » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:53 pm

Anime Sword Fighter wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm
thinking about the time a bard in wharftown just copy-pasted "I'm on a Boat" by The Lonely Island with either minimal or no alterations for some festival
But was he actually on a boat?
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Pippo » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:10 pm

Anime Sword Fighter wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm
thinking about the time a bard in wharftown just copy-pasted "I'm on a Boat" by The Lonely Island with either minimal or no alterations for some festival
I would have loved for a gnome or halfling bard rocking "I'm on a goat"

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 am

Personally I would much prefer to see a bard do some awful but original poetry than just copy / paste anything or change a few words. The effort goes a long way regardless of actual talent, although I'm not going to judge someone for being less creative and just shoplifting lyrics.
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:10 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 am
Personally I would much prefer to see a bard do some awful but original poetry than just copy / paste anything or change a few words. The effort goes a long way regardless of actual talent
This. People are too hard on themselves. I love player written material!

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Kuma » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:55 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 am
Personally I would much prefer to see a bard do some awful but original poetry than just copy / paste anything or change a few words. The effort goes a long way regardless of actual talent,
this

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by LawfulJoe » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:01 pm

Chances are, you keep pushing people for original content and you’ll end up with NO content. It’s not easy to put on a performance every week to make an easy and fun way for you other players to learn languages. I am not going to spend hours of OOC time developing enough original content to fill an hour to 2 hours of game time every week. I just don’t have that level of free time. This thread has been more discouraging than helpful to any bard RP.
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LawfulJoe
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by LawfulJoe » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:22 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 am
Personally I would much prefer to see a bard do some awful but original poetry than just copy / paste anything or change a few words. The effort goes a long way regardless of actual talent, although I'm not going to judge someone for being less creative and just shoplifting lyrics.
I guess you really like not seeing bards perform at all. Unless song writing is your job or you are a poet, try to develop a different 2 hour show every week with crappy original content and see how burned out you get.
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Xerah » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:40 pm

Different people have different preferences. It is not a personal attack on you.

When I do bards, I look to get a mixture of things that have been done before (with no changes; honestly, that should not be uncommon and in general should be the most common types of performances you see), some that you change a bit to fit in Arelith, and some that you make yourself.

My favourite has been when a specific halfling bard wrote their own play and we performed it. It was a long time in the works, but I think it went pretty well!
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Duchess Says
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Duchess Says » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:56 pm

Nobody’s saying you can’t bring outside text to a language lesson or other performance. They’re just saying what +they+ would like to see. It’s not for anyone but DMs to say you can’t quote Ed Sheeran lyrics if you really want to. I’d rather see original text or someone research interesting and more obscure folk songs and poetry myself but that is my opinion. Bards absolutely do not have to create everything original and even if you look at their RL historical counterparts most of them will be singing songs or recounting stories they picked up on the road as much as creating their own. That’s cool with me. Whatever you do just make it feel organic and you're most of the way there.

If a language lesson is just regurgitating text to teach the language without care as to the content? That is a problem I hope DMs would address. I don’t know what you do or what your sources are but I will assume there’s at least some editing to make it fit the world and seem like something your character would have picked up and if so then great have fun. In the end do whatever you can live with and ignore those who don’t like it if you don’t agree.

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:50 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:56 pm
Nobody’s saying you can’t bring outside text to a language lesson or other performance. They’re just saying what +they+ would like to see. It’s not for anyone but DMs to say you can’t quote Ed Sheeran lyrics if you really want to. I’d rather see original text or someone research interesting and more obscure folk songs and poetry myself but that is my opinion. Bards absolutely do not have to create everything original and even if you look at their RL historical counterparts most of them will be singing songs or recounting stories they picked up on the road as much as creating their own. That’s cool with me. Whatever you do just make it feel organic and you're most of the way there.

If a language lesson is just regurgitating text to teach the language without care as to the content? That is a problem I hope DMs would address. I don’t know what you do or what your sources are but I will assume there’s at least some editing to make it fit the world and seem like something your character would have picked up and if so then great have fun. In the end do whatever you can live with and ignore those who don’t like it if you don’t agree.
Pretty much this - especially as reguards bardic stuff.

If we want it spelled out here's my personal guide to Bardic songs in this context

* Please do not regurgitate modern, well known songs without any change in lyrics if said lycis mention very immersion breaking things. (e.g. cars, tv, whatever - you know what I mean.)

*Please try and steer away from very well known/popular songs if you can. Again not the end of the world if you do it occasionaly or as a brief joke - but most of the time it's more likely to make people wince than laugh.

* The more origionality you put into your songs the more impressive it is... but don't feel like you have to. If you don't want to? Don't do it. That's fine. No one's forcing you to. But if you're up for it? Huge kudos there!

* If you are heavily basing your song on someone elses work, and someone asks you IC 'hay is this your own work?' it might be nice to say, 'No, it's from another bard.' Again - not neccesary though. Or possibly you can go 'Yes it is' but tell them OOCly that it isn't - that's up to you.

* If someone asks you OOC if the song is your origional work and it's not - then it is definatly very polite to say 'No this is in fact Heather Dale/Lenard Cohen/an old folk song/ect' Again - not a server rule but just good form.
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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by R0GUE » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:55 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:56 pm
Nobody’s saying you can’t bring outside text to a language lesson or other performance. They’re just saying what +they+ would like to see. It’s not for anyone but DMs to say you can’t quote Ed Sheeran lyrics if you really want to. I’d rather see original text or someone research interesting and more obscure folk songs and poetry myself but that is my opinion. Bards absolutely do not have to create everything original and even if you look at their RL historical counterparts most of them will be singing songs or recounting stories they picked up on the road as much as creating their own. That’s cool with me. Whatever you do just make it feel organic and you're most of the way there.

If a language lesson is just regurgitating text to teach the language without care as to the content? That is a problem I hope DMs would address. I don’t know what you do or what your sources are but I will assume there’s at least some editing to make it fit the world and seem like something your character would have picked up and if so then great have fun. In the end do whatever you can live with and ignore those who don’t like it if you don’t agree.
I'm going to guess you've never been to one of our language lessons, so you are just assuming, but I can assure you no one is regurgitating anything. We put a lot of work into our little concerts to make learning languages fun. That includes research, planning, formatting, more planning. For one of our performances we arranged the whole thing into a play. There were some parts that were borrowed, although some were completely original. But I can assure it was a lot of work and it wasn't "regurgitation".

Unfortunately this whole thread has put one of our players off of ever performing on stage again. I know you are saying we shouldn't take it personally, but it's really hard not to when you work really hard at something for a long time and then people don't seem to appreciate it.

No one in our group is breaking any rules that Grumpycat just laid out, although we did have a newer bard sing a song from one of the Lord of the Rings soundtracks. She actually received compliments about it afterwards however not winces. I guess my point is this thread has resulted in a policy decision from a DM, I think we should close and lock the thread before it causes any more hurt feelings.

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Duchess Says » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:05 pm

Excuse me? I worded it careful to express that I did not know them or accuse of anything. I refuse to have a guilt trip laid on me because someone took offense at a very reasonable discussion.

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by R0GUE » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:18 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:05 pm
Excuse me? I worded it careful to express that I did not know them or accuse of anything. I refuse to have a guilt trip laid on me because someone took offense at a very reasonable discussion.
I'm not guilt tripping you at all. This happened well before your post. Not all the discussion has been as gently worded.

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by Duchess Says » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:19 pm

Then why quote me like you are admonishing me!?

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Re: RP Policy: Quoting real-world works in-character?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:04 am

Perhaps its' time to lock this, as I think it's been tougherly discussed.

Please note my above isn't 'rules' (Bar maybe the point a bit? And even that only in extremes) it is, for the most part, just suggestions. If you really want to run around claiming that a slightly altered version of Scarbrough Fair is your own work well... you can, we won't 'ban' you for it - but I would personally think less of you.

No one here (or at least very few) are saying 'TO BE A BARD YOU MUST WRITE 100% ORGIONAL SONGS!!!!'

We're saying 'It's awsome when people do make their own poetry.'

But if you can't/don't/won't (I know when I've played bards I havn't!) then that's 100% fine too.

Again though - I think it's time for a lock.
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