Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

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Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Poll ended at Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:34 pm

Fully Automated System - Tracks things like faction size, time played, RPB, lines spoken, emotes emoted, unique items made, etc. Eventually guarantees 5%.
18
18%
Partially Automated, Partially Manual System - Automated system in addition to DM and community-based hand picked recommendations VIA in-game commands that can further expedite the progress to being guaranteed a 5%.
30
30%
Fully Manual System - DM and community-based hand picked recommendations via in-game commands that accrue and accumulate into a "point" based escrow, eventually guaranteeing a 5%.
6
6%
Leave the system as is - No changes to award system. Remain as RNG, level-based system with small increasing factor of gold.
27
27%
None of these.
8
8%
Delete Award System Entirely - Let players play whatever they want, within reason. Special requests can be made to DM team.
12
12%
 
Total votes: 101

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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:57 pm

If turnover is a major concern, maybe this: Having an Mark of Destiny increases the odds of a higher roll? Or introduce a new mark to this effect that only kicks in after they hit level 30 (so they don't just perma-die early on from having a few bad writ outings).

I know that only partially addresses the issue here, but it might help incentivize more dynamic turnover in the characters we see hanging around out there.
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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Kilivin » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:26 pm

To re-iterate/reinforce what I said about the 5% roll being a form of "Elitism" is that specific character concepts have a wall to entry due to them being elite both by community standards and meta. The reaction to this is that the wall to entry, seems to be, that past experiences have dullened the setting having these races/classes be "commonplace" amongst the player base.

I would repeat that Cordor does not have a population of 20-30 humans that are directly represented by each NPC present. Relative to the realistic amount of people that would be in cities such as Guldorand, Cordor, or Andunor - spotting a pair of Ogres teamed up with a red dragon disciple elf and a tiefling sorcerer is not going to make that suddenly 20% of the population of Arelith. Maybe, sure, it will make it 20% of the population of Adventurers, but that is already a very small percentage of the world of FR on the whole.
My Point Is - claiming that because the player base makes a larger amount of one race/class over others makes it more common is also stating that the population of Arelith IS the player base and not the world of Arelith on the whole. Player Characters are a fraction of the population of Arelith. To state otherwise, while maybe visually apparent by how many NPCs are walking around, is even more jarring to the verisimilitude of the world than having 12 tieflings in a bar. Which I'm going to keep using 12 tieflings in a bar because it sounds like the start of a good joke. :D

I would also repeat that Arelith has a number of very very very rare creatures in a geographically very small area relative to the rest of Toril. While rare places like this exist (Undermountain/Waterdeep in general being ones I can think of off the top of my head), nobody would make too much of a fuss at 12 tieflings at a bar in said places. By making the argument that special race/class combo rarity needs to be maintained for verisimilitude to be achieved, it's blatantly ignoring the very high fantasy setting of Arelith specifically compared to the rest of the Realms. While I would definitely 100% not consider myself an expert on FR lore, the only place that may come close to Arelith's level of whacky occurrences, events, and enemies present is Evermeet or Waterdeep. Both locales (specifically the latter), again, nobody would bat an eye at the realism or possibility of 12 tieflings being in a bar.

On that vein, the only thing that the 5% roll achieves is making the player base have the meta OOC knowledge that "Oh, that firbolg was hard to get". You may not react to that the same way a new player does, but there is a degree of grandeur that these 5% roll race/classes have which I've noticed get a lot more attention by the player base than your bog-standard half orc barbarian or human fighter. That those character archetypes are so tired and repetitive is why you shouldn't make the option of doing something weird and against the norm so difficult or time consuming to achieve. Exclusivity/Elitism isn't necessarily a bad thing. You could have rewards tied to living characters that achieve level 31 or something, idk. Barring variety though for the sake of verisimilitude or being "OP" (which means nothing in D&D) through a time-wall leads to repeated character stereotypes that must be played in order to achieve something unique. You have to slog through, take your licks, w/e u wana call it just as everyone else did to get what you wanted in the first place... in other words... elitism.

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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Zavandar » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:39 pm

that you think repeated character stereotypes must be played in order to achieve something unique is kind of the crux of your problem.

you don't need a 5% to stand out.

i can probably count on one hand the number of 5% characters that have left a lasting, good impression on me.
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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Kilivin » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:11 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:39 pm
that you think repeated character stereotypes must be played in order to achieve something unique is kind of the crux of your problem.

you don't need a 5% to stand out.

i can probably count on one hand the number of 5% characters that have left a lasting, good impression on me.
There are an unknown number of players that never got to play their really awesome 5% character concept. A likely reason why so many 5% characters haven't stood out is because the bar to entry for a 5% character is so time-consuming and rather anti-RP oriented. People who would have made good tiefling RPers, minotaurs, firbolgs, etc etc - never went through with grinding that much. I don't know many people who are really really into roleplay and are also very into grinding...not all, but pretty much everyone I know.

Forcing someone's interesting character to be diff/not what they want for the sake of anything so they can "Prove themselves" by making many lvl 26 characters to sack... You're only going to push people away tons of potential good RP by it existing.

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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Xerah » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:16 pm

Kilivin wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:26 pm
That those character archetypes are so tired and repetitive is why you shouldn't make the option of doing something weird and against the norm so difficult or time consuming to achieve.
This is a pretty uncool thing to say. You can certainly make interesting characters that are basic archetypes and just because they are not a special race does not make them uninteresting. It's also not elitism to lock these things behind time commitments.

We all understand that Cordor has more than 20 NPC, but it would still look absolutely terrible if all the player characters had horns, wings, tails, large sizes, etc. Clearly, we disagree with that, but this is the majority opinion (and more importantly, the developer/owner opinion) for Arelith. In general, if someone can't play anything but "wacky things" then finding a place more suited to their style is the best approach; I honestly don't feel sad if I lose out because the best minotaur RPer in the world couldn't play here.

Also, 12 tieflings in a bar would 100% stand out in FR and people would think the hells have opened up or something.

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As a final note, speaking as a moderator now, please stop calling everyone "elitists". It is rude, uncalled for, and frankly, incorrect.
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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by godhand- » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:22 pm

Kilivin wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:26 pm
post on elitism and "reinforcing" the same argument - snipped
in both cases feel like the only way to enjoy time playing is to enforce unrealistic bends to the character concept in order to fit in to the different groups/factions and enjoy the game.

In other words, it's a status symbol to have angel/devil/dragon wings for example from PLAYER to PLAYER that "Hey, I'm not a newbie." I have never heard of a 5% race or character not being extremely popular, and as much as I want to chum it up to good roleplay - non 5% race/characters tend to always fall by the wayside unless they've been on the same character for 2 years+.
I think you confuse your perceived elitism with what others might refer to as arelith experience, the experience gained of players who have played along time (and some are naturals on their first attempt), who are both more comfortable with how to get involved in roleplay, and toe the line between whats a good character concept in your own mind, and what actually plays well with others. Remember, this is a collaborative story telling game, and to do so we need a concept that is actually enjoyable for the collaborative story of all.

I know for myself, i've had alot of GREAT ideas, that either: I couldn't execute well enough, OR, i could execute it awesomely but it wasn't wholesome for the playerbase as a whole... And then i have other ideas that i wasn't as sold on when i originally made it that blossomed beautifully.

I feel like theres a big misunderstanding happening here with comparing arelith to pnp. Arelith/nwn is a video game based on pnp, yes, but it is not, pnp.
I've never seen a pnp game where you have up to 60 players sitting around the table roleplaying through a story - which, while it doesn't happen out adventuring, its a common occurence to have 60 players taking part in an event, all in the same zone ingame.
Player Characters are a fraction of the population of Arelith.
True, But PCs are almost the entirety of what you will interact with while role playing the game, unless you happen on a DM event.
I would also repeat that Arelith has a number of very very very rare creatures in a geographically very small area relative to the rest of Toril.
lets use the baseline measurements of a tile in NWN. 10x10 meters. So, By this logic, from Cordor to Bendir is probably less than a kilometer, or mile (shakes fist at the US). Theres a suspension of disbelief one has to take with regards to the size of the fictional* island of arelith compared to the actual FR lore on location sizes.

Infact on the topic of suspension of disbelief, your entire argument is trying to base around "verisimilitude to FR lore" - There is a balance between verisimilitude and suspension of disbelief to make something fun and enjoyable... and this is a game that is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Its a delicate balance that Irongron, Grumpycat and the DM teams have been supervising for years, to create a server/environment that 20 years after NWNs release, has a playerbase that is still growing.

To me, that means they're hitting the nail on the head with maintaining that balance.

*Fictional compared to FR lore

**Edited becauase i can't string a coherent sentence together.
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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Kilivin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:43 pm

godhand- wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:22 pm
Player Characters are a fraction of the population of Arelith.
True, But PCs are almost the entirety of what you will interact with while role playing the game, unless you happen on a DM event.
I would also repeat that Arelith has a number of very very very rare creatures in a geographically very small area relative to the rest of Toril.
lets use the baseline measurements of a tile in NWN. 10x10 meters. So, By this logic, from Cordor to Bendir is probably less than a kilometer, or mile (shakes fist at the US). Theres a suspension of disbelief one has to take with regards to the size of the fictional* island of arelith compared to the actual FR lore on location sizes.

Infact on the topic of suspension of disbelief, your entire argument is trying to base around "verisimilitude to FR lore" - There is a balance between verisimilitude and suspension of disbelief to make something fun and enjoyable... and this is a game that is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Its a delicate balance that Irongron, Grumpycat and the DM teams have been supervising for years, to create a server/environment that 20 years after NWNs release, has a playerbase that is still growing.

To me, that means they're hitting the nail on the head with maintaining that balance.

*Fictional compared to FR lore

**Edited becauase i can't string a coherent sentence together.
That's more to my point of there being verisimilitude within the setting that it makes sense realistically in the lore. I'm not arguing that the world isn't fun/enjoyable/well made. More that the repeated statements that something being rare as an argument to not allow its presence is ignoring that suspension of disbelief we all share in the world. Stating that "Some firbolgs are in the plaza, my immersion is broken" is also destroying that understanding that Cordor is more than 20-30 NPCs and adventurers that roam through it.

A better argument for removing the 5% roll being dangerous than rarity would be that the race/classes are broken or that people won't RP that race/class well. I'd submit my counter to those arguments because the previous just feels like an agree to disagree. I don't see adventurers as the predominant race on the island, therefore allowing more exotic race/classes doesn't tip the scales in a way your character would recognize beyond "Wow, Arelith really does attract all sorts." (which it does...Thay, The Flaming Fists, Amn, The Lord's Alliance - I mean come on, the island is super popular). I feel really bad for people who can't see it as bigger than its in game counterpart is. It's like playing a campaign set in Waterdeep but getting upset at the creators cause they didn't make over 500 maps of every street for you to really understand the scale. It makes the world feel incredibly smaller than it is built up to be by what your comment that so many have worked so hard to make it feel big and important.

As for something being broken, my question would be broken how? There are non reward characters that can solo all content in the game already, including epic dungeons. PVP could have grief, but in most all cases it's player buy in to PVP in the first place and player buy in to take a death as permanent. If someone has a super beefcake minotaur come to the surface and kills 30 players, none of whom are even level 30, people would tackle that individual down as a group and their "OPness" wouldn't really come into play. Maybe they knock one or 2 people down, but ultimately you're not going to get these massive displays of meta builds stomping people in most PVP settings. Certainly, it can happen and I think that should be handled more on a case by case basis of somebody just griefing people with a power build and being a wang rod, "Oh, it's what my character would do."

As for someone not RPing that race/class well. I'd say this is what feels like the biggest fear that's being cloaked as "it's not realistic to the setting." I think it's this way because saying "You can't RP a tiefling well" sounds very mean/exclusive, true or not. I would say this though - if someone is playing a Firbolg and does it poorly according to you or a few people - why does that ruin your experience more than if they played a Half orc or Orog poorly? The problem with this argument is that the races that are behind a 5% roll (no matter minor->major) seem arbitrarily picked by newcomers. You could very easily make things like Orc, Orog, and Kobold also reward races because they're hard to roleplay "correctly". Ultimately - this is something that should be reflected on someone's RPR and the DM's consent to its existence just like a vampire or rakshasa. It's NOT something that is solved by having it possible for someone who loves grinding make 10+ 26 lvl characters and make a Minotaur.

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Re: Award System Remastered - What Would You Prefer?

Post by Xerah » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:01 pm

I think we can drop this argument.

You have an opinion that is not the same as the admins/devs/DMs here. Repeating yourself over and over again isn't going to say anyone over to your side.

The topic is about reward systems and this has ventured very far from the point. I am locking this thread but if another can be opened and stay on topic then it can continue.
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