Another update, another character sacrificed

[AstralUniverse]

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes

But it isnt really going to happen. I hate to bring the lore change up (and for the record, I was never really against it) but balancing the game around 3 classes, rather than 2 classes and a UMD tax, is borderline impossible. You'll always have builds showing up, fully optimizing what the meta has to offer and passing the average power curve, then needing nerfs, until something else comes up.

The upside in this in my opinion is that games which are constantly going through mechanical meta shifts are so fun and evolving so I dont even consider this a bad thing.

[Draco]

The new update crippled my character to the point that I might as well roll. I get adding content but when you take it away it affects people far more than what you added. No more skill dumps for certain classes, while it may have been intentional or not does major damage to the character and build. Resources are limited, including the number of classes you can fit in. I totally empathize with the OP here. I didn't do anything wrong, I've leveled my character to 30, taken part in a lot of great RP, and hopefully provided some for others. I've grinded far more than I'd like to finish the gear for my character, all that work, all that progress with the character just so it can be undone with an update.

Really, where is the incentive to play?

[kinginyellow]

I think I've said this before myself.

I spent a major award on a character that I built as an off-meta shadowdancer build with majority shadowdancer levels that relies on a gimmick and class synergy to work. Right now with the skill update the character is actually better. But, I made the character maybe a month or two before the announcement that HIPS was going to be removed from the server and shadowdancer was getting a rework.

Right now the character still has HIPS while we wait for the shadowdancer rework, and thankfully even when HIPS is removed I should be fine because the character wasn't built around HIPS itself. However, I can't say that I've not taken a major step back from the character and haven't been playing super noncommittal simply because in 6 months or so once the class gets reworked I might need to just roll.

I empathize with the people who've gotten memed on by some of these balance changes. While I appreciate Arelith's mechanics, which are very different from vanilla NWN, and the attempts at balancing it, we've been having very significant buffs, nerfs and QOL changes being implemented very quickly in the past year, which has made it difficult to actually settle into one character. I was considering making a paladin recently for once (I usually play Neutral/Evil characters and wanted to go for something different), but I just saw the patch notes for paladin including level 23 Paladin getting Div Might / Shield for free on a use of either. This means the optimal path for building a paladin now is to only take one to save a pre-epic feat. I might wait 6 months on making a paladin simply because I predict this to get changed to it requiring you to at least have both feats at some point, and I don't want to get a character to 30 that I then need to rebuild or roll because of a change like that. Because as minor as a change like that might seem it actually hits the character pretty hard on a mechanical standpoint. And I give this as an example that I can see happening.

[Itikar]

I am frankly baffled at the logic, or apparent lack thereof, behind some changes.

Specifically, my character has been deeply hurt by the removal of parry from bard, which was useful for a class that otherwise would suffer from spell failure, unless one was to take still spell.

That said, it is a large and impressive update and I feel bad at pointing out small smears like this. Still, being affected, I cannot help but feel less than happy at having to make further sacrifices to save an aesthetic aspect of my character.

[garrbear758]

I just saw the patch notes for paladin including level 23 Paladin getting Div Might / Shield for free on a use of either. This means the optimal path for building a paladin now is to only take one to save a pre-epic feat.

You still need both feats.

[kinginyellow]

You still need both feats.

Huh. The announcement wasn't very clear on that. Well, at least that means I can actually make that paladin then.

Edit: Or my single digit IQ skipped over it.

[Diegovog]

Why the nerf on barb/wm? They were one of the few good str builds out there.

[garrbear758]

You still need both feats.

Huh. The announcement wasn't very clear on that. Well, at least that means I can actually make that paladin then.

Edit: Or my single digit IQ skipped over it.

You didn’t miss it. I edited it to clarify after seeing your post.

[Apothys]

Speaking for the other side of the coin.

I absolutely love the changes that happen and have no problem with the sudden impact of them at all. The fact that this server constantly works to improve the game as it does is one of many reasons I stay. So Kudos to everyone behind the scenes.

Having said that I recognise that some will be getting a bumm deal with this.

[Draco]

Having said that I recognise that some will be getting a bumm deal with this.

Very much so, yes, made all the worse by the fact that it was through no fault of our own. How can I trust anything I make if this is what is to be expected? When you remove skills from a class then that build will suffer. A class that was once used as a skill dump, as part of the build in both RP and mechanics then with a flip of a switch take it away, it is incredibly discouraging. It's not about what was added, it's about what was taken. Which then adds insult to injury when you see how so many others benefited by you getting screwed over.

One of the big selling points for why Favored Souls aren't given something to put them on Clerics level was the skills available to the Favored Soul. Now that argument is out the window, we take serious issue with giving Favored Souls anything but then give Clerics 66 extra skill points to spend just because.

[chris a gogo]

Is this update going to stand or should I wait a week for all the alterations to go in so I don't have to relevel everything twice?

Also.
Why does rogue now have 10/lvl skill points with no int investment?
Why does rogue/assassin/shadowdancer now have perform?

Why have Bard lost a skill and gained extra skill points?

Why have druid and shaman just lost a class skill and gained nothing?

Why do palemasters get 2 extra skill points and not wizards?

[kinginyellow]

Is this update going to stand or should I wait a week for all the alterations to go in so I don't have to relevel everything twice?

Also.
Why does rogue now have 10/lvl skill points with no int investment?
Why does rogue/assassin/shadowdancer now have perform?

Why have Bard lost a skill and gained extra skill points?

Why have druid and shaman just lost a class skill and gained nothing?

Why do palemasters get 2 extra skill points and not wizards?

These are my beliefs as to why these changes are as they are.

If you recall people were complaining recently about the changes when it came to obtaining gold. There have been skills that have been introduced that are the difference between having a character that actually has gold and a character that doesn't. These skills being Appraise, Search and Leadership.

Most non int caster characters on server are going to have a +2 int modifier. Almost no build doesn't take expertise, and going below this means being skill starved.

Necessary Skills for most builds: Discipline, Heal (Going without is painful), Spellcraft (if available, free saves), Tumble (Free AC), Lore (Access to scrolls like Mind Blank for a rogue is priceless), Concentration (mostly for casters, but also to resist taunt), UMD (15 at least.)

Rogues have to go even further because if they want to be able to stealth they need Hide/MS. If they want to find traps they need Search. If they want to disarm traps they need Disarm Trap. If they want to open locks they need open lock. So Rogue on top of the above also needs 5 more skill points to do Rogue Things. Shadowdancer and Assassin have the same requirements. (I assume they were given perform in order to use it for disguise instead of bluff)

And then you still have skills like Appraise and Leadership (And search ,but included with rogue) to actually generate gold with.

Honestly adding +2 skill points to some of these classes is the same as removing Discipline from the game (which I wish we did) and Heal (which I wish we did) which every build needs, and letting them have more skill flexibility. I don't see this as a bad thing.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Discipline is not as necessary anymore as it once was.

Palemasters losing leadership is a major hit, and i say this as a PM built for leadership.

Intimidate just doesnt do it for me. It implies Palemasters are meant to be out in the open i guess? Not sure

[Hazard]

Rogues desperately needed the skill points. Even with 16-18 int you don't have enough for the bare basics as a classic rogue (pure or deep rogue with fighter levels).

That's just wrong.

This update is pure gold. I love it.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I feel you man, it's kind of disheartening to know my shifter shadow dancer concept will probably one day get nuked (don't judge, it has it's merits both mechanically and roleplay even if it is subpar) and I haven't even gotten my shadow dancer levels yet even though I created the character several months ago. (this also will probably mess with my heavy shadow dancer shadow mage concept that has epic dodge, blinding speed caster level 30 and great sanctuary and hips) I love exploring unintended/overlooked mechanics as well. Meanwhile holding W while shooting is kept as intended even though we had to recently learn about it as why archers got nerfs and not something you could have easily theory crafted on your own just by looking at a wiki.

But I feel like we are getting better and better even if it is frustrating on a personal level.

[Anomandaris]

You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

Im very grateful you said this. Imagine if you had spent the last 6+ months lvling that char to 30 and become deeply immersed in RP.

A not insignificant number of people have been saying for some time this server is gonna (and prob has) lose players because ppl are tired of having their characters that they’ve invested time and energy into invalidated. It’s too much, too fast and with very little transparency. We don’t need to obsess over balance, it’s actually pretty good. A lighter hand on trying to perfect balance would serve this community well as would a bit more transparency on how and when these changes are made. It’s fine if stuff is late, we’re not Salesforce here, almost every dev group has a roadmap and a transparent decision making process to its stakeholders. As a past digital product and project manager I would happily volunteer my time to help with some simple processes/ideas that would help with planning and community management around dev.

We don’t need velocity, we need more careful and stable releases that don’t flip things on their head. If we make 10 people happy with new cookies but ruin 1 person’s character that they pretty much have to roll, as a philosophical benchmark, that is not a fair trade or a good thing. The server has a good population but this creates real fatigue and frustration and then burnout. We can’t afford to be losing great rpers over this.

A lot of these changes are totally legit, a few leave me scratching my head. I’m worried with the rapid addition of new abilities, feats etc the meta is being driven towards high str, burst dmg crit builds and we’re just creating a new set of imbalances, it’s basically balance whackamole.

Specific Changes:
Why did we need more skill pts? Now there’s fewer hard choices and an investment into spot/listen or discipline or (insert skill) aren’t an “investment.” I’m maining a sorc right now so benefitted tremendously from this, but I still think it’s way too much additional power/utility for everyone. We’re not all supposed to be good at everything are we?

Adding a saveless arcane spell failure inducing touch attack (IB’s Eviscerate)? How is that allowed to be a thing? Even at 20% failure any caster in major trouble. Not even a concentration check here? Defender has a similar ability as well. Not a good trend to add things that have no save or counterplay. Any arcane failure is a serious risk to casters being able even participate in pvp and not get squished. These need checks...

I wonder if there isn’t too much power placed into a very small number of people’s hands to decide what balance means and design/modify classes on a fundamental level? A certain amount of autonomy is required, and I love all the creativity and contributions, but the process doesn’t factor in a lot of considerations that would come from a broader perspective. I know how dev decisions are made in even well structured companies and it’s usually side convos, campaigning/debating over pet favorite projects and a lot of fast and loose decision making outside of any real process or transparency. It’s just what happens...

Anyways my characters are basically buffed this time around so I’m really just trying to advocate for a more fundamental issue. There’s a real cultural, community management, dev strategy related bit of feedback the community has been sharing for maybe years now... hope it gets heard.

Thanks for your time!

[garrbear758]

You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

Im very grateful you said this. Imagine if you had spent the last 6+ months lvling that char to 30 and become deeply immersed in RP.

A not insignificant number of people have been saying for some time this server is gonna (and prob has) lose players because ppl are tired of having their characters that they’ve invested time and energy into invalidated. It’s too much, too fast and with very little transparency. We don’t need to obsess over balance, it’s actually pretty good. A lighter hand on trying to perfect balance would serve this community well as would a bit more transparency on how and when these changes are made. It’s fine if stuff is late, we’re not Salesforce here, almost every dev group has a roadmap and a transparent decision making process to its stakeholders. As a past digital product and project manager I would happily volunteer my time to help with some simple processes/ideas that would help with planning and community management around dev.

We don’t need velocity, we need more careful and stable releases that don’t flip things on their head. If we make 10 people happy with new cookies but ruin 1 person’s character that they pretty much have to roll, as a philosophical benchmark, that is not a fair trade or a good thing. The server has a good population but this creates real fatigue and frustration and then burnout. We can’t afford to be losing great rpers over this.

A lot of these changes are totally legit, a few leave me scratching my head. I’m worried with the rapid addition of new abilities, feats etc the meta is being driven towards high str, burst dmg crit builds and we’re just creating a new set of imbalances, it’s basically balance whackamole.

Specific Changes:
Why did we need more skill pts? Now there’s fewer hard choices and an investment into spot/listen or discipline or (insert skill) aren’t an “investment.” I’m maining a sorc right now so benefitted tremendously from this, but I still think it’s way too much additional power/utility for everyone. We’re not all supposed to be good at everything are we?

Adding a saveless arcane spell failure inducing touch attack (IB’s Eviscerate)? How is that allowed to be a thing? Even at 20% failure any caster in major trouble. Not even a concentration check here? Defender has a similar ability as well. Not a good trend to add things that have no save or counterplay. Any arcane failure is a serious risk to casters being able even participate in pvp and not get squished. These need checks...

I wonder if there isn’t too much power placed into a very small number of people’s hands to decide what balance means and design/modify classes on a fundamental level? A certain amount of autonomy is required, and I love all the creativity and contributions, but the process doesn’t factor in a lot of considerations that would come from a broader perspective. I know how dev decisions are made in even well structured companies and it’s usually side convos, campaigning/debating over pet favorite projects and a lot of fast and loose decision making outside of any real process or transparency. It’s just what happens...

Anyways my characters are basically buffed this time around so I’m really just trying to advocate for a more fundamental issue. There’s a real cultural, community management, dev strategy related bit of feedback the community has been sharing for maybe years now... hope it gets heard.

Thanks for your time!

This sounds great if this were a company or we were being paid for it. It’s not and we’re not. Things will come as the volunteers have time and a desire to work on them.

[Cagus]

Even though this topic was created before today's update, I see the discussion switched to comment on recent changes.
And I will comment on this update also.
But not on the changes.
Again, on implementation.

I wasn't around 21 hours, and in that time, you informed on forum about the changes, about FORCED relevel and in 21 hours implemented on live server.
So...
Even if didn't want to relevel, I have to, it is forced.
Now, any character I log is level 1, but I have to immediately level it to 2.
I cannot even export the character to dig out, what feats I took.
I cannot transfer it to test, so I can review the character.
If I do not have notes somewhere, I have no idea how my build was done.
Also if I have full inventory, my character starts to drop the endgame gear on the ground.

Only thing I can do, is click something, which guarantees I will bork the build and sac anyway.
Secondly I can transfer level 2 character to test and spend undefined time on test server building again from scratch.

This is exactly why I made this topic. It is not even about the changes, but the way, how those are implemented.
Could you inform one week before, so we could prepare for the relevel? Prepare the inventory. Export the character. Transfer it to test. Prepare new build.

[RedGiant]

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

This means alot. I have been hoping for awhile we could at least nail down the class mechanics in a (somewhat) permanent fashion, so that most (or all) future mod work could be entirely focused on content creation, development, refinement.

[Anomandaris]

You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

Im very grateful you said this. Imagine if you had spent the last 6+ months lvling that char to 30 and become deeply immersed in RP.

A not insignificant number of people have been saying for some time this server is gonna (and prob has) lose players because ppl are tired of having their characters that they’ve invested time and energy into invalidated. It’s too much, too fast and with very little transparency. We don’t need to obsess over balance, it’s actually pretty good. A lighter hand on trying to perfect balance would serve this community well as would a bit more transparency on how and when these changes are made. It’s fine if stuff is late, we’re not Salesforce here, almost every dev group has a roadmap and a transparent decision making process to its stakeholders. As a past digital product and project manager I would happily volunteer my time to help with some simple processes/ideas that would help with planning and community management around dev.

We don’t need velocity, we need more careful and stable releases that don’t flip things on their head. If we make 10 people happy with new cookies but ruin 1 person’s character that they pretty much have to roll, as a philosophical benchmark, that is not a fair trade or a good thing. The server has a good population but this creates real fatigue and frustration and then burnout. We can’t afford to be losing great rpers over this.

A lot of these changes are totally legit, a few leave me scratching my head. I’m worried with the rapid addition of new abilities, feats etc the meta is being driven towards high str, burst dmg crit builds and we’re just creating a new set of imbalances, it’s basically balance whackamole.

Specific Changes:
Why did we need more skill pts? Now there’s fewer hard choices and an investment into spot/listen or discipline or (insert skill) aren’t an “investment.” I’m maining a sorc right now so benefitted tremendously from this, but I still think it’s way too much additional power/utility for everyone. We’re not all supposed to be good at everything are we?

Adding a saveless arcane spell failure inducing touch attack (IB’s Eviscerate)? How is that allowed to be a thing? Even at 20% failure any caster in major trouble. Not even a concentration check here? Defender has a similar ability as well. Not a good trend to add things that have no save or counterplay. Any arcane failure is a serious risk to casters being able even participate in pvp and not get squished. These need checks...

I wonder if there isn’t too much power placed into a very small number of people’s hands to decide what balance means and design/modify classes on a fundamental level? A certain amount of autonomy is required, and I love all the creativity and contributions, but the process doesn’t factor in a lot of considerations that would come from a broader perspective. I know how dev decisions are made in even well structured companies and it’s usually side convos, campaigning/debating over pet favorite projects and a lot of fast and loose decision making outside of any real process or transparency. It’s just what happens...

Anyways my characters are basically buffed this time around so I’m really just trying to advocate for a more fundamental issue. There’s a real cultural, community management, dev strategy related bit of feedback the community has been sharing for maybe years now... hope it gets heard.

Thanks for your time!

This sounds great if this were a company or we were being paid for it. It’s not and we’re not. Things will come as the volunteers have time and a desire to work on them.

Nothing I said was about increasing output or expectations for more work, or meeting any sorts of timelines. Perhaps even the opposite... Really it's about increasing transparency and developing in a community centric way. Pet projects are great, but sometimes it feels that balance is pretty much decided by 1-x people. Within 1 or 2 standard deviations, people working on a given project can pretty much do whatever they want right?

That's not to say you all don't have a lot of experience or a great perspective, but there are a lot of different perspectives on what balance means and the how changes actually play out in "the wild." It's not a criticism on you, or on anyone for that matter. It's more an observation that sometimes the way these things are done can cause a lot of frustration in the community and there are some pretty simple ways to at least "mitigate" that.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

I feel like Wizards should gain more skill points if Sorc does. It's part of the Wizard identity to have a good amount of skill points. If you raise everyone else's value but leave the wizards low that's a nerf to them and taking away from that identity.

[Skibbles]

I feel like Wizards should gain more skill points if Sorc does. It's part of the Wizard identity to have a good amount of skill points. If you raise everyone else's value but leave the wizards low that's a nerf to them and taking away from that identity.

Wizards weren't changed probably because wizards got the most skill points (and free feats, language slots, learning speed, etc) out of any class prior to the update. They still do, but now it's closer to even.

[Fargreze]

Just chiming in to say this is one of the greatest updates of all time. Having more abilities on one character makes the game more engaging. Today my main picked up Search (money and some cool features), Taunt (new combat tool), and respec'd into Crafting Mastery to gain gearing independence. I could hardly be more thrilled. Two of my complaints at a previous time were that affording Crafting was too difficult without compromising combat effectiveness (see nonhuman, previously skill-starved classes like Fighter), and that "gold skills" were mostly a luxury for suboptimal builds (or lucky classes like Knight, who could use Leadership both for combat and making gold). Solved. Thank you for letting us engage with the mechanics on these newly deepened characters. He can even (barely) ride a horse (to travel through the expansive recent areas)! Quality of Life has gone to the moon.

But I say this as someone who is making and testing a few new builds a week; I can understand the frustration of those who were caught by surprise, and who haven't got the experience to confidently restore or tweak their builds' features according to the changes. The changes are obviously worth it and their implementation (all at once, very nice) is the least jarring that could be expected, given that a level 1 skill recalculation was necessary. This thread documents complaints, but I can tell you who isn't posting here: others who have noticed, like me, that several of their earlier or side characters can now be rebuilt freely with more skills and better knowledge of the game.

I would encourage anyone to use this opportunity to get advice from the Discord or elsewhere on the forums to look for new opportunities for your character. There is almost definitely a way to make something at least somewhat strong (optimal as it can be, even if the concept is not high-tier) and enjoyable along very similar lines.

[AstralUniverse]

I love this update.
Invisible Blade will *definitely* need some tweaks but over all it looks great. I love that harper priest lost Discipline especially, and that Hexblade got Uncanny dodge. Juicy stuff right there. Some things are puzzling still, and I really truly sympathize with the countless players who got no clue what to do with their relevel but I love this game evolving.

[mourisson1]

I'll just add that what OP wrote, is basically a reason why after a forced coronavirus-break, I am not coming back to arelith, because

1) I have to look through a lot of changes and eventually make a new character + build, or just blindly take finished build from wiki, because basically my characters are either broke beyond repair, or the change doesnt allow me to do the build in the same RP fashion (and I feel dumb just randomly coming out with new weapon type, if the character was well known for their mastery of one), or I've missed something like time-restricted relevel.

2) Even if I make new character, and start getting into it, enjoying it, and having it involved in something, the past on Arelith has taught me to always expect No.1 to happen, and that really discourages me from investing time into it again.

I'd like to point out i DONT BLAME anyone, and I really know that everyone who does developer work for arelith does it as non-paid, free-time activity, and that is really nice. I just felt like writing my feelings about this here, since the problem was opened by OP. And in all honesty, even if people feel like after Monkageddon, changes that came were very well done, I cant really put my trust in that, because when i happen to look on updates, and 1 min after reading the invisible blade change, I'm like "This cant be right, 3lvl dip for incredible damage, there has to be catch somewhere", yet it seems like developer overlooked this, and it is getting changed very soon for sure.... It's hard to trust that all the changes are made with impact on builds in mind.