Invisible Blade Balance Thread

[Dr. B]

Does Lesser Restoration work for it or just normal/greater?

[garrbear758]

Does Lesser Restoration work for it or just normal/greater?

Normal or greater

[Dr. B]

Thanks.

Would you also consider adding Wakizashi to the IB weapon list?

[strong yeet]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Here’s what we are probably doing (subject to change without notice):

Lower heal dc by 20
Allow resto to clear
Change bleed to slashing damage
Require dual wielding to use bleed or eviscerate
Change bleed damage to hard int
Change eviscerate to (hard int)d4

IBs will get another, optional relevel.

Sorry but in my estimation this is nowhere near severe enough of a nerf, and really addresses nothing about why the class was OP in the first place.

The bleed still stacks infinitely and doesn't expire, or at least there's no mention of either notion in the updates.

The arcane strike is still absolutely LUDICROUS -- 20% spell failure on a touch attack? That's a literal death sentence for a caster of any stripe, especially a mage. There's no getting out of it, either. Spell failure debuffs are VERY rare and have always been attached to a DC in the past. On its own, this ability would be absurdly overtuned. Yet it also has additional effects, breaching as many effects as a spell of greater breach, and giving a malus of 5 to Lore+UMD just as a cherry on top.

The slow is still overtuned, but doesn't need as severe a scaling back as the insanity of arcane strike. The DC is simply way too high, and again is an extremely powerful effect on a touch attack With No Save. An overwhelming majority of characters can be hit with touch attacks. It's only high-DEX characters that can even have a hope of mitigating them at all -- they are the exception, not the rule.

I'm not really sold on eviscerate, since as I mentioned at the beginning of my post the bleed still apparently would have no limit -- so the damage can eventually reach the same ludicrously sky-high numbers I'm sure everyone's by now familiar with.

Frankly, the way the class is designed is extremely awkward. It's a dip class. You can only take 3 levels. What you get out of 3 IB is vastly more than you get out of 3 levels in any other class, even the much-maligned div/monk dips.

[Baron Saturday]

Yeah, as is I'd be pretty tempted to turn any Dex build into a dual-wielder with IB just for Arcane Bleed.

[kinginyellow]

Sorry but in my estimation this is nowhere near severe enough of a nerf, and really addresses nothing about why the class was OP in the first place.

The bleed still stacks infinitely and doesn't expire, or at least there's no mention of either notion in the updates.

The bleeds expire after 1 minute if no new instance of it has been added. That means that it is active for 10 rounds after the last application. If there are no new applications for 10 rounds, then the bleed is gone.

You could let it take that long, or you can use a healing kit or, if the changes actually make it so restoration gets rid of them, you can either -pray or use a restoration scroll to get rid of them.

The arcane strike is still absolutely LUDICROUS -- 20% spell failure on a touch attack? That's a literal death sentence for a caster of any stripe, especially a mage. There's no getting out of it, either. Spell failure debuffs are VERY rare and have always been attached to a DC in the past. On its own, this ability would be absurdly overtuned. Yet it also has additional effects, breaching as many effects as a spell of greater breach, and giving a malus of 5 to Lore+UMD just as a cherry on top.

I agree. Arcane bleed is still stupidly good. But at least we're getting a nerf to some of the other aspects of the class that make it as strong as it was.

The slow is still overtuned, but doesn't need as severe a scaling back as the insanity of arcane strike. The DC is simply way too high, and again is an extremely powerful effect on a touch attack With No Save. An overwhelming majority of characters can be hit with touch attacks. It's only high-DEX characters that can even have a hope of mitigating them at all -- they are the exception, not the rule.

There's a touch attack on landing the slow. If it hits, you get a wound and get a reflex save. If you pass the reflex save the slow doesn't apply. So it has a saving throw. Only Arcane Bleed has no save whatsoever.

I'm not really sold on eviscerate, since as I mentioned at the beginning of my post the bleed still apparently would have no limit -- so the damage can eventually reach the same ludicrously sky-high numbers I'm sure everyone's by now familiar with.

It can still stack infinitely but instead of having 2d6 or 3d6 damage per stack it is possibly going to become xd4 based on hard int. Most characters are going to have a hard int of 14. If you wanted to get more you could but I don't see it going above 16 on most non casters. On a spellblade it will go up to 19. But the spellblade would have to dual weild IB weapons.

So, most cases 2d4. Rogues and Assassins maybe could get it up to 3d4. Spellswords could make it 4d4.

Frankly, the way the class is designed is extremely awkward. It's a dip class. You can only take 3 levels. What you get out of 3 IB is vastly more than you get out of 3 levels in any other class, even the much-maligned div/monk dips.

Before Garrbear's post on what might get changed (and none of them are confirmed yet) I'd agree with you. Now I think its better, but would still prefer IB to be a full class that required full investment, rather than 3 levels to get everything. But I'm also of the opinion that monk ubab should only apply to majority monk level characters and the wis to AC should be capped by class levels just like Spellsword's shield AC is.

The only thing I would leave alone are div dips, because they still require feat investments past the 3 level dip to get the prerequisite of turn undead.

[Dreams]

Invisible Blade could be made much more simple:
- Lose Arcane Bleed
- Lose Eviscerate
- Just have each stack of bleed be 1 magic damage, stacks go indefinitely, until Restoration/Greater Restoration/45DC heal check.
- Crippling Throw can put on 10 of the above mentioned stacks.
- Expand potential weapon choices to any 1h bladed weapons used with no shield, dual wielding.

Then you’d have a small dip for a small benefit, wouldn’t have to be game-breaking, super mechanical or over the top crazy. It’s just the sort of thing that isn’t hugely important but would eventually need to be taken care of.

It also leaves the class open for classes like monks to get a benefit but not a massive one, since the class is no longer ridiculously overpowered.

[Poolbrain]

Just but a damage cap on eviscerate, possibly linked to sleight of hands?

[Apothys]

I don't get it, provided it's properly balanced, classes don't have to please everyone, having different playstyles/gimmicks is healthy. You can play a crapload of other classes that I'm sure cater to your more traditional-NWN tastes, and that's okay.

Anyway to each their own. I just wanted to state explicitly that I really support the attempt to bring proven new ways of playing classes into this old video game. A dev reading this could feel disheartened to have spent hours working on it just to have that work dismissed non nonchalantly. So hey, whether i'm in the silent minority or silent majority, here's a thank of a player to the work on IB and the innovation behind it. Keep it up devs!

I totally agree with this.

[Rico_scorpion]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Here’s what we are probably doing (subject to change without notice):

Lower heal dc by 20
Allow resto to clear
Change bleed to slashing damage
Require dual wielding to use bleed or eviscerate
Change bleed damage to hard int
Change eviscerate to (hard int)d4

IBs will get another, optional relevel.

[I know i know i said i wouldn't post again, sue me]

Great changes!
Arcane bleed could still use a slight nerf / scaling too.

I just have some doubts about "hard int". Wouldn't using soft int (like softint/2 * 1d3) put some pressure on the gearing game (which is always good on a loot-craft RPG) and that would also open up the class efficiency to 14 int strengthers with gearing sacrifices? More open-ness that way.

With hard int taking the class with a 14 int toon would be mild. Its also a free grab on assassins/swash which may or may not be an issue.

[Dreams]

One minor thing that's really frustrating about this at the moment: Using arcane bleed or eviscerate is supposed to be tied to an attack, but what it does is a touch attack and then leaves you flat footed with your action queue cancelled. Could we change it a little to leave you attacking afterwards, similar to stunning fist or ki damage?

[AstralUniverse]

Most IBs will have 16 int. I mean... its mandatory to take 14 on any melee build already so using a certain race or trading con gift to get 16 int is not a huge problem. At that point you're dealing 3 per stack again (or imagine you're a hecking spellsword IB... *cringe*) and the nerf is basically d6s into d4s, which is a step in the right direction. It seems that instead of nerfing the damage stacking, the nerf was to the DC of the healing kits, which is fine on paper but healing kits flat-foot you so I dont know if it's really solving the problem. you're either screwed by eviscerate or by flat-footing yourself with kits. The problem mostly remains.. there's too little investment for qualifying and taking this class to begin with, for what it gives, it is insane still.

One minor thing that's really frustrating about this at the moment: Using arcane bleed or eviscerate is supposed to be tied to an attack, but what it does is a touch attack and then leaves you flat footed with your action queue cancelled. Could we change it a little to leave you attacking afterwards, similar to stunning fist or ki damage?

you really asking for buffs now? lol

For clarity, you are asking that it'll be a normal attack in the action queue but right now it's a full round action like using a wand so it would be a HUGE buff. Plz no.

[Dreams]

No, I'm not asking for buffs. I'm asking for it to not make you flat-footed and end your action queue. It's clunky as hell and doesn't actually work unless you're finishing the fight.

Assuming that the proposed changes go through and eviscerate doesn't become the 500 damage explosion combat ender, then this is going to be more necessary. If it was WAY less damage, then making it a free action would be ideal.

Also, open this to the sickle. It's a less-good shortsword, bladed weapon, almost never used by anyone but potentially has a cool aesthetic.

[Maladus]

Would it be possible to have these abilities added to -usefeat? Having to click on the target you want in the middle of a big crowd is rough.

[AstralUniverse]

No, I'm not asking for buffs. I'm asking for it to not make you flat-footed and end your action queue.

Serious question. How is it any different than a normal action that ends in you being flat-footed unless you have another action in the queue? When you use a wand, you have to immediately do something after, or you'll be standing flat-footed right? so what's so bad in it working this way? Remember, if it was like knockdown or any other action you shove inside your attacking queue it would be INSANELY too strong.

[Zavandar]

kd doesnt end your action queue so why should evisc be any different?

what other combat abilities flatfoot you? Does cav charge?

[AstralUniverse]

kd doesnt end your action queue so why should evisc be any different?

what other combat abilities flatfoot you? Does cav charge?

Any full round action like using a wand, using a grenade etc will end your action queue (unless you.. like.. use another wand) and make you need to manually attack after. Dunno about Cav... This does includes tho many or even most of touch attack rolls in the game (PM's touch ability comes to mind) so I dont see why Eviscerate should be any different, also considering the ridiculous amount of damage it can deal, seems to balance out imo.

[Dreams]

Alright, Astral:
"end your action queue (unless you.. like.. use another wand" = not ending your action queue

[AstralUniverse]

Alright, Astral:
"end your action queue (unless you.. like.. use another wand" = not ending your action queue

Oh you're being cute. Alright mate. Let me explain in other words maybe...

When you perform a full round action, like using a wand or a scroll or most of the touch attack rolls in the game (basically all that arent spells, because then spells could be hasted) you cannot have your attacking order stacked up in the queue, because to do so, you'd cancel whatever it is you're currently doing and attack instead. This is just how the game works.

This means that outside of stuff like knockdown, disarm, called shot and 'special' attacks in general, anything you do can be stacked up in the action queue except attacking. It is slightly inconvenient but it's nothing new and all you need to do is attack immediately as you would need to do if you were using a wand or whatever.

Turning this ability into a special attack like KD and disarm (and forgive me deeply if I understood you incorrectly and this is NOT what you were asking for) is way too strong. In fact, I'm not even sure it can be done. it isnt something I've ever seen done with touch attack rolls. I hope this is more clear now.

[Dreams]

Oh you're being cute. Alright mate. Let me explain in other words maybe...

:)

[Maladus]

So can it be added to the -usefeat functionality being a melee touch attack? If so, I still think it would be worthwhile to do.

[LIAR LIAR]

Guess who's going to get hit all the time in PVP, especially now that we've given up on giving STR AC and are giving them damage immunity instead :^)

The sad thing is that STR builds don't need AC or damage immunity.

They just need the ability to render DEX builds flatfooted, either through feats or consumables. Which they used to have.

Literally just - giving them ways to FF DEX-builds would give them parity again. That's all that needs doing.

Uncanny Dodge I: The character retains his dexterity bonus to AC, even if caught flat-footed or attacked by a hidden or invisible creature.

You won't find a dex build without this feat.

[LIAR LIAR]

Okay, some commentary.

Dual-wielding should be a must. A parry build with this would be wild.

Maybe investigate a damage or stack cap? You could even base it off hitdice the character possesses to prevent insane early level gameplay.

A DC of 20 can be achieved by a level 1 character. Maybe more like 40-50, maybe scaling if you make it 5 invisible blade? You want to consider, with raw skill point investment, what you will get on an average roll (ten.) So, 20 skill points, which can be achieved by level 17? DC 30 is fair chance of hit or miss. 30 skill points, by level 27? Average roll of 40 in combat, meaning a 40 dc would have a fair chance of success or failure at that level of gameplay. Many builds actually stop at 30 skill points in heal to shave off for other things. You don't want it too strong for early levels, but also unviable for level 30 characters. Again, maybe tie this to hitdice, not class levels.

People keep talking about monks, but you can't use any monk features on ib weapons.

20% spell failure. Do you guys mean, 80% chance of success at casting a spell? Dex builds really lack for a way to stop a level 30 caster aside from murdering them outright. Now, lets do some math here. If I was hasted, and I cast ten spells over the five rounds this lasts for...I will fail two on average. Or I could kite for five rounds, who knows, sky's the limit when you're flying on haste. This ability is so not threatening it's funny.



And a question. Won't the slashing damage choice make it so the dot literally doesn't bother DR builds?

[Vylarah]

So, I recently remade my character to be an invisible blade, and while yes, I agree with the commentary about how strong it is right now, I believe that some of the proposed nerfs are a little high. Below are my thoughts for

The bleed should scale up with the levels in Invis blade, I feel say... 1/2/3 damage with a cap on stacks at 1/3/5 would be more than fair, and stop this infinite scaling... changing the damage type of the bleed, would really make it a little pointless against things with physical damage immunity.

The DC for the bleed I feel should sit around 40-45, which would still give it some relevance in the higher end of things, should characters come to blows... sure, add in restoration working against it, it makes sense.

Oh, and currently Eviscerate is doing WAY more damage than it is supposed to.
1 stack on an orc, made it do 32 damage
6 on the king of ghouls made it do 200

Edit: I also believe that Eviscerate should have a cooldown of 1-2 minutes, like most powerful class abilities.

[Anomandaris]

...

20% spell failure. Do you guys mean, 80% chance of success at casting a spell? Dex builds really lack for a way to stop a level 30 caster aside from murdering them outright. Now, lets do some math here. If I was hasted, and I cast ten spells over the five rounds this lasts for...I will fail two on average. Or I could kite for five rounds, who knows, sky's the limit when you're flying on haste. This ability is so not threatening it's funny.

There’s a reason people do not tolerate any spell failure on gear even if just 5%. The margins for error playing a caster versus any dangerous build are slim to none, if the other player is capable.

Failing to get your gsanc off, to CC, to imp invis often isn’t a, “oh no keep kiting” moment, it’s a you die moment. Because you’re gonna get KD’d, and if not one rounded, then interrupted and beat senseless (maybe crippling strikes or slowed or whatever).

As a past rogue/fighter player there are many many ways to kill a mage (also most have blinding speed on tap). But that usually is dependent on them not being able to start with, and maintain spacing and action economy. If you take that one crucial spell away with arcane failure, like TS or Imp invis or timestop or a summon or whatever when that melee is 2 quick steps away, they’re just dead. And this is also thinking in terms of 1:1 dueling. In more group pvp the mage is in extreme danger of being burst down by multiple opponents and taken right out of the fight due to their potential impact on the battle.

So yah, saveless arcane failure for multiple rounds against an opponent who can also flat foot you is very powerful and fight ending. Failing 1/5 spells is a heavy heavy malus that can and will end fights. Not to mention, it might even be smarter to not even TRY to cast with a 1/5 failure chance, and instead kite out the five rounds due to the risk of failure and losing spacing, thus effectively taking the mage out of the fight completely for the entire duration. Not to mention the ability has a GSB and skill debuff attached to it... Hence why a DC check should be implemented.