I read somewhere on the forums that shifter overhaul is eventually expected, hence I'm making this thread. Let's all complain about the class and see if we have clever solutions for fixing it. Of course the shifter is not an Arelith creation so there's no need to be kind. The class is wet garbage. Without further ado I'll pick apart the problems with the shifter one by one.
Prerequisites and Flavor: I get that sometimes cool classes are gated behind feat taxes, but what the hell does having to be a druid do for the class mechanically or thematically?
Having to take five levels in a full caster class is usually pointless. The druid levels have to be abandoned to get the most out of shifter and they do little besides granting some easily dispellable buffs and slowing BaB progression.
What I find even more irksome is that druids swear to uphold the natural order but shifters can transform into iron golems, zombies and various other unnatural beings. The class' general aesthetic and theme strikes me as totally schizophrenic. Besides having to start as a tree hugger to become a walking corpse, the forms seem hugely random. Other classes have access to summoning streams, and of course there are totem rangers and druids. So while other characters can have a neat and coherent look to fit a certain narrative (bird totem druid with a bird companion and summoned bird, a cleric who summons demons and evil outsiders, etc.) the shifter is by contrast a bag of random surprises and party favors.
The randomness of the shifter is not necessarily a bad thing if one wants to play a zainy shapeshifting madman or something, but I feel like a system of form specialization should be available. If you want to master a certain family of shapes like constructs or humanoids I think you should be able to do that early on. Perhaps your character believes he was a kobold in a past life and seeks the power of transformation to assume what he believes to be his true form. Why would such a man have to learn how to become a gargoyle and a harpy and a dragon before he can figure out the only form that motivated him as a character?
Mechanics: Yeah, the class blows. Being martial, shouldn't it have full BaB? Shouldn't the forms scale better with level? And perhaps most important of all it would be awesome to see more abilities on forms. Dragon breath weapons are so much fun and it would be great to see similar abilities on other shifter forms.
Shifter Feedback
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Duchess Says
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Re: Shifter Feedback
It would be very different than what they are now but I would suggest making them a race and a class. More a sub-race like tiefling or genasi actually-- an award variant of a base race. Then make shifter the base class they have to start as.
Re: Shifter Feedback
I have no illusions about anything coming to pass (Garrbear even said, if I remember correctly, that a shifter rework was in the books if a dev was feeling up to it, and there are many approved suggestions that have been sitting around for years). Reworking shifter is a huge undertaking, and it's for the benefit of literally only 4 current players, as per the last character/class count by Spyre, who are running a shifter. So...big effort, minimal reward.
That being said, some thoughts as I really do love the class!
* BIG PICTURE *
If a shifter rework were to be done, it would really need to be made its own class from level 1. Shifter transformations are different than any polymorphing spell (shifter forms can't be dispelled); it's very clearly a bizarre primal magic all in its own league. Any given person can't "learn" true shifting the way they can learn a polymorph spell. These abilities aren't general knowledge. The closest someone could get is studying under druids and learning how to beastshape, which is the closest mechanical similarity in NWN. This is why, I believe, that the base game designers decided shifters needed druid levels. Because shifter forms are like druid beast forms functionally, so...correlation? Kinda lazy when you can shift into golems and undead as Waldo pointed out, but whaddaya gonna do, they needed some mechanical prerequisites for the class.
I think the nature of a shifter's abilities need to be carefully thought out so it doesn't step on the toes of rakshasa. The big difference is that rakshasa can shapeshift into humanoid forms and most 'regular people', whereas a shifter shapeshifts into monstrous forms; I consider the humanoid shifter forms exceptions to the rule. So when considering something like Duchess Says' suggestion, you have to consider what's the point of having both changelings AND rakshasa in the game? If they're both race-based shapeshifters, they step on each other's toes. It would be more interesting imo for them to be markedly different kinds of shapeshifting, which is something already largely achieved.
* MECHANICS *
So how to improve the base class, as it's a complete mechanical mess? A very tough question to answer. Some ideas (with absolutely no thought to how hard it would be to make them happen, just thinking out loud).
ONE: Scrap every shifter form. Seriously. Get rid of every single base shifter form. But hear me out...
Grant shifters two feats.
The first feat is their shift ability. Using it opens a conversation box where they can select a form they'd like to shift into. At level 1, this conversation box has no creature forms in it, or maybe like just a dire rat.
The second feat is a passive feat that allows them to study hostile creatures they encounter. Once a shifter kills x number of a creature (like a quaggoth raider, a cracked skull goblin, etc.), they receive a notification saying something like "You have studied these creatures enough to know them inside and out. You can now shift into the form of a _______!" Now, when they use their shift ability, the conversation box that opens includes the new form.
In this way, a shifter's journey would lead them to ever greater adventures as they search for new forms to learn. Want to shift into a fire giant? Sorry, you'll need to kill 20 fire giants before you've studied them enough to know what to do. You'd obviously have to put limits on this ability (we don't need shifters running around as Pausch), but the notion of shifters learning their forms by studying monsters in the field is such an exciting concept in my mind.
TWO: If you're going to keep the shifter forms that are there now, they need to *each* be useful in some genuine way. I think it's fine if a shifter is never PVP-competitive. Honestly, I don't think they should be. The RP potential with their abilities is tremendous but also a burden; that's why it's locked behind an application. If you make shifters OP mechanically, then I think people will want to play the class just because it's strong.
But the shifter forms need to be useful. I think the ideal goal would be to make each form have a niche use; specific groups of enemies or scenarios where they shine. Right now, there are forms that are objectively worse in every way to others. And that's fine to some degree; lower level forms should not be stronger than higher-level forms. But there are really only one or two forms that you can trust to perform with any decency, and I think you should be able to feel that way about a dozen different forms. As it stands you're better off min-maxing a single form to make it as strong as possible, which goes against the nature of the class.
I think a great and simple way to achieve this is just to tweak some numbers. As Waldo pointed out, most shifter forms are melee-focused but the class doesn't have full BAB. Your AB is absolute trash, only becoming a little reasonable if you do something like min-max the kobold form, multiclass swashbuckler, and use parry for the +5 AB.
AC and damage aren't in terrible places, I think. Depending on the form and how you're geared you can be doing 30-50 a hit, and you can very reasonably hit 3-digit crits on at least a couple of the forms (azer chief, risen lord, possibly others). Your AC across the board isn't great, but isn't terrible either. Multiclassing into monk really boosts that AC up to competitive levels (60+ on most forms, mid 70s with the kobold commando, spectre, so on).
The other drawback is that many shifter abilities have limited uses per day and have extremely low DCs. Instead of limited uses per day, put shifters in line with every other class on the server with abilities in this vein and just make them have cooldowns. DCs are trickier to balance, as some of the abilities are stanky good. Sure, the basilisk form has terrible stats, but it has a petrification cone ability it can use a few times per day. And once you hit shifter level 10, you can shift into the basilisk form unlimited times per day. So...you have unlimited petrification cones with no cooldown. And yet...since the form has terrible stats, and since the cone DC is so low, and since spending a round to shapeshift out and then back in to use the cone again is a hassle, it's almost never worth using. If you put the abilities on a cooldown, it would really help to balance that. Shifter ability DCs need a serious look across the board, as they're all too low. They're so low that they're never worth using, so you're forced to go with the one or two forms that have decent stats.
"Adventure in a party!" You say. "Then your frontline fighters can soak up attacks while you kite enemies and use your abilities." Great plan, but just about every shifter ability hits your allies. Manticore spikes? Hits your allies. Basilisk and medusa cones? Hits your allies. Dragon breath, mindflayer psionic blast, both rakshasa offensive spells, golem stone throws? All of them hit your allies.
What I'm trying to get at is that the nature of many of the shifter abilities look promising on paper, but in practice it just never works out. These abilities are really cool, and you should be stoked to use them. But they're just so ineffective, or they hit your allies. Spellcasters have lots of spell options to choose spells that work in a party. Shifters don't - they're limited to a set stack of poor offensive abilities. Which brings me to suggestion three...
THREE: Rethink the variety of shifter abilities. Shifters are supposed to be this jack-of-all-trades class that can fit into many scenarios, but they're only designed for attacking things - in melee combat, mostly - in different ways. Give them some variety. What if the mindflayer could apply its psionic barrier to party members? What if the drider had a bow (like every other drider) so you could have at least *one* form with a regular ranged weapon attack? What if the harpy's song stopped enemies from attacking all party members, not just the shifter? What if the risen lord could summon undead on a cooldown? What if the golem forms could guard party members with increased effectiveness like the knight?
* LAST THOUGHTS *
The question of how to improve shifters is a difficult one to answer, and hopefully minds wiser than mine will chip in. There's a lot of dangerous potential with the class. Ultimately, I think the goal should be to make shifters fun and reasonably effective to play while still maintaining the integrity of roleplay in the Arelith setting. I think any shapeshifting class/race in a roleplaying server should be behind some kind of application, and I'm glad to see it's the case on Arelith. I wouldn't want that to go, because a fighter can run around willy-nilly and PVP and one-line people and bash corpses and, eh, it's another madman. But if a shifter does that as a manticore or gargoyle, or as an intelligent form like an azer or mindflayer, the server starts to look real silly real quick.
Hope this text-vomit of thoughts might provide some ideas to any dev wanting to take the project on!
That being said, some thoughts as I really do love the class!
* BIG PICTURE *
If a shifter rework were to be done, it would really need to be made its own class from level 1. Shifter transformations are different than any polymorphing spell (shifter forms can't be dispelled); it's very clearly a bizarre primal magic all in its own league. Any given person can't "learn" true shifting the way they can learn a polymorph spell. These abilities aren't general knowledge. The closest someone could get is studying under druids and learning how to beastshape, which is the closest mechanical similarity in NWN. This is why, I believe, that the base game designers decided shifters needed druid levels. Because shifter forms are like druid beast forms functionally, so...correlation? Kinda lazy when you can shift into golems and undead as Waldo pointed out, but whaddaya gonna do, they needed some mechanical prerequisites for the class.
I think the nature of a shifter's abilities need to be carefully thought out so it doesn't step on the toes of rakshasa. The big difference is that rakshasa can shapeshift into humanoid forms and most 'regular people', whereas a shifter shapeshifts into monstrous forms; I consider the humanoid shifter forms exceptions to the rule. So when considering something like Duchess Says' suggestion, you have to consider what's the point of having both changelings AND rakshasa in the game? If they're both race-based shapeshifters, they step on each other's toes. It would be more interesting imo for them to be markedly different kinds of shapeshifting, which is something already largely achieved.
* MECHANICS *
So how to improve the base class, as it's a complete mechanical mess? A very tough question to answer. Some ideas (with absolutely no thought to how hard it would be to make them happen, just thinking out loud).
ONE: Scrap every shifter form. Seriously. Get rid of every single base shifter form. But hear me out...
Grant shifters two feats.
The first feat is their shift ability. Using it opens a conversation box where they can select a form they'd like to shift into. At level 1, this conversation box has no creature forms in it, or maybe like just a dire rat.
The second feat is a passive feat that allows them to study hostile creatures they encounter. Once a shifter kills x number of a creature (like a quaggoth raider, a cracked skull goblin, etc.), they receive a notification saying something like "You have studied these creatures enough to know them inside and out. You can now shift into the form of a _______!" Now, when they use their shift ability, the conversation box that opens includes the new form.
In this way, a shifter's journey would lead them to ever greater adventures as they search for new forms to learn. Want to shift into a fire giant? Sorry, you'll need to kill 20 fire giants before you've studied them enough to know what to do. You'd obviously have to put limits on this ability (we don't need shifters running around as Pausch), but the notion of shifters learning their forms by studying monsters in the field is such an exciting concept in my mind.
TWO: If you're going to keep the shifter forms that are there now, they need to *each* be useful in some genuine way. I think it's fine if a shifter is never PVP-competitive. Honestly, I don't think they should be. The RP potential with their abilities is tremendous but also a burden; that's why it's locked behind an application. If you make shifters OP mechanically, then I think people will want to play the class just because it's strong.
But the shifter forms need to be useful. I think the ideal goal would be to make each form have a niche use; specific groups of enemies or scenarios where they shine. Right now, there are forms that are objectively worse in every way to others. And that's fine to some degree; lower level forms should not be stronger than higher-level forms. But there are really only one or two forms that you can trust to perform with any decency, and I think you should be able to feel that way about a dozen different forms. As it stands you're better off min-maxing a single form to make it as strong as possible, which goes against the nature of the class.
I think a great and simple way to achieve this is just to tweak some numbers. As Waldo pointed out, most shifter forms are melee-focused but the class doesn't have full BAB. Your AB is absolute trash, only becoming a little reasonable if you do something like min-max the kobold form, multiclass swashbuckler, and use parry for the +5 AB.
AC and damage aren't in terrible places, I think. Depending on the form and how you're geared you can be doing 30-50 a hit, and you can very reasonably hit 3-digit crits on at least a couple of the forms (azer chief, risen lord, possibly others). Your AC across the board isn't great, but isn't terrible either. Multiclassing into monk really boosts that AC up to competitive levels (60+ on most forms, mid 70s with the kobold commando, spectre, so on).
The other drawback is that many shifter abilities have limited uses per day and have extremely low DCs. Instead of limited uses per day, put shifters in line with every other class on the server with abilities in this vein and just make them have cooldowns. DCs are trickier to balance, as some of the abilities are stanky good. Sure, the basilisk form has terrible stats, but it has a petrification cone ability it can use a few times per day. And once you hit shifter level 10, you can shift into the basilisk form unlimited times per day. So...you have unlimited petrification cones with no cooldown. And yet...since the form has terrible stats, and since the cone DC is so low, and since spending a round to shapeshift out and then back in to use the cone again is a hassle, it's almost never worth using. If you put the abilities on a cooldown, it would really help to balance that. Shifter ability DCs need a serious look across the board, as they're all too low. They're so low that they're never worth using, so you're forced to go with the one or two forms that have decent stats.
"Adventure in a party!" You say. "Then your frontline fighters can soak up attacks while you kite enemies and use your abilities." Great plan, but just about every shifter ability hits your allies. Manticore spikes? Hits your allies. Basilisk and medusa cones? Hits your allies. Dragon breath, mindflayer psionic blast, both rakshasa offensive spells, golem stone throws? All of them hit your allies.
What I'm trying to get at is that the nature of many of the shifter abilities look promising on paper, but in practice it just never works out. These abilities are really cool, and you should be stoked to use them. But they're just so ineffective, or they hit your allies. Spellcasters have lots of spell options to choose spells that work in a party. Shifters don't - they're limited to a set stack of poor offensive abilities. Which brings me to suggestion three...
THREE: Rethink the variety of shifter abilities. Shifters are supposed to be this jack-of-all-trades class that can fit into many scenarios, but they're only designed for attacking things - in melee combat, mostly - in different ways. Give them some variety. What if the mindflayer could apply its psionic barrier to party members? What if the drider had a bow (like every other drider) so you could have at least *one* form with a regular ranged weapon attack? What if the harpy's song stopped enemies from attacking all party members, not just the shifter? What if the risen lord could summon undead on a cooldown? What if the golem forms could guard party members with increased effectiveness like the knight?
* LAST THOUGHTS *
The question of how to improve shifters is a difficult one to answer, and hopefully minds wiser than mine will chip in. There's a lot of dangerous potential with the class. Ultimately, I think the goal should be to make shifters fun and reasonably effective to play while still maintaining the integrity of roleplay in the Arelith setting. I think any shapeshifting class/race in a roleplaying server should be behind some kind of application, and I'm glad to see it's the case on Arelith. I wouldn't want that to go, because a fighter can run around willy-nilly and PVP and one-line people and bash corpses and, eh, it's another madman. But if a shifter does that as a manticore or gargoyle, or as an intelligent form like an azer or mindflayer, the server starts to look real silly real quick.
Hope this text-vomit of thoughts might provide some ideas to any dev wanting to take the project on!
Is no one.
Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.
Re: Shifter Feedback
I don't agree with everything you said but there were a lot of really compelling ideas there.Aradin wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:33 am I have no illusions about anything coming to pass (Garrbear even said, if I remember correctly, that a shifter rework was in the books if a dev was feeling up to it, and there are many approved suggestions that have been sitting around for years). Reworking shifter is a huge undertaking, and it's for the benefit of literally only 4 current players, as per the last character/class count by Spyre, who are running a shifter. So...big effort, minimal reward.
That being said, some thoughts as I really do love the class!
* BIG PICTURE *
If a shifter rework were to be done, it would really need to be made its own class from level 1. Shifter transformations are different than any polymorphing spell (shifter forms can't be dispelled); it's very clearly a bizarre primal magic all in its own league. Any given person can't "learn" true shifting the way they can learn a polymorph spell. These abilities aren't general knowledge. The closest someone could get is studying under druids and learning how to beastshape, which is the closest mechanical similarity in NWN. This is why, I believe, that the base game designers decided shifters needed druid levels. Because shifter forms are like druid beast forms functionally, so...correlation? Kinda lazy when you can shift into golems and undead as Waldo pointed out, but whaddaya gonna do, they needed some mechanical prerequisites for the class.
I think the nature of a shifter's abilities need to be carefully thought out so it doesn't step on the toes of rakshasa. The big difference is that rakshasa can shapeshift into humanoid forms and most 'regular people', whereas a shifter shapeshifts into monstrous forms; I consider the humanoid shifter forms exceptions to the rule. So when considering something like Duchess Says' suggestion, you have to consider what's the point of having both changelings AND rakshasa in the game? If they're both race-based shapeshifters, they step on each other's toes. It would be more interesting imo for them to be markedly different kinds of shapeshifting, which is something already largely achieved.
* MECHANICS *
So how to improve the base class, as it's a complete mechanical mess? A very tough question to answer. Some ideas (with absolutely no thought to how hard it would be to make them happen, just thinking out loud).
ONE: Scrap every shifter form. Seriously. Get rid of every single base shifter form. But hear me out...
Grant shifters two feats.
The first feat is their shift ability. Using it opens a conversation box where they can select a form they'd like to shift into. At level 1, this conversation box has no creature forms in it, or maybe like just a dire rat.
The second feat is a passive feat that allows them to study hostile creatures they encounter. Once a shifter kills x number of a creature (like a quaggoth raider, a cracked skull goblin, etc.), they receive a notification saying something like "You have studied these creatures enough to know them inside and out. You can now shift into the form of a _______!" Now, when they use their shift ability, the conversation box that opens includes the new form.
In this way, a shifter's journey would lead them to ever greater adventures as they search for new forms to learn. Want to shift into a fire giant? Sorry, you'll need to kill 20 fire giants before you've studied them enough to know what to do. You'd obviously have to put limits on this ability (we don't need shifters running around as Pausch), but the notion of shifters learning their forms by studying monsters in the field is such an exciting concept in my mind.
TWO: If you're going to keep the shifter forms that are there now, they need to *each* be useful in some genuine way. I think it's fine if a shifter is never PVP-competitive. Honestly, I don't think they should be. The RP potential with their abilities is tremendous but also a burden; that's why it's locked behind an application. If you make shifters OP mechanically, then I think people will want to play the class just because it's strong.
But the shifter forms need to be useful. I think the ideal goal would be to make each form have a niche use; specific groups of enemies or scenarios where they shine. Right now, there are forms that are objectively worse in every way to others. And that's fine to some degree; lower level forms should not be stronger than higher-level forms. But there are really only one or two forms that you can trust to perform with any decency, and I think you should be able to feel that way about a dozen different forms. As it stands you're better off min-maxing a single form to make it as strong as possible, which goes against the nature of the class.
I think a great and simple way to achieve this is just to tweak some numbers. As Waldo pointed out, most shifter forms are melee-focused but the class doesn't have full BAB. Your AB is absolute trash, only becoming a little reasonable if you do something like min-max the kobold form, multiclass swashbuckler, and use parry for the +5 AB.
AC and damage aren't in terrible places, I think. Depending on the form and how you're geared you can be doing 30-50 a hit, and you can very reasonably hit 3-digit crits on at least a couple of the forms (azer chief, risen lord, possibly others). Your AC across the board isn't great, but isn't terrible either. Multiclassing into monk really boosts that AC up to competitive levels (60+ on most forms, mid 70s with the kobold commando, spectre, so on).
The other drawback is that many shifter abilities have limited uses per day and have extremely low DCs. Instead of limited uses per day, put shifters in line with every other class on the server with abilities in this vein and just make them have cooldowns. DCs are trickier to balance, as some of the abilities are stanky good. Sure, the basilisk form has terrible stats, but it has a petrification cone ability it can use a few times per day. And once you hit shifter level 10, you can shift into the basilisk form unlimited times per day. So...you have unlimited petrification cones with no cooldown. And yet...since the form has terrible stats, and since the cone DC is so low, and since spending a round to shapeshift out and then back in to use the cone again is a hassle, it's almost never worth using. If you put the abilities on a cooldown, it would really help to balance that. Shifter ability DCs need a serious look across the board, as they're all too low. They're so low that they're never worth using, so you're forced to go with the one or two forms that have decent stats.
"Adventure in a party!" You say. "Then your frontline fighters can soak up attacks while you kite enemies and use your abilities." Great plan, but just about every shifter ability hits your allies. Manticore spikes? Hits your allies. Basilisk and medusa cones? Hits your allies. Dragon breath, mindflayer psionic blast, both rakshasa offensive spells, golem stone throws? All of them hit your allies.
What I'm trying to get at is that the nature of many of the shifter abilities look promising on paper, but in practice it just never works out. These abilities are really cool, and you should be stoked to use them. But they're just so ineffective, or they hit your allies. Spellcasters have lots of spell options to choose spells that work in a party. Shifters don't - they're limited to a set stack of poor offensive abilities. Which brings me to suggestion three...
THREE: Rethink the variety of shifter abilities. Shifters are supposed to be this jack-of-all-trades class that can fit into many scenarios, but they're only designed for attacking things - in melee combat, mostly - in different ways. Give them some variety. What if the mindflayer could apply its psionic barrier to party members? What if the drider had a bow (like every other drider) so you could have at least *one* form with a regular ranged weapon attack? What if the harpy's song stopped enemies from attacking all party members, not just the shifter? What if the risen lord could summon undead on a cooldown? What if the golem forms could guard party members with increased effectiveness like the knight?
* LAST THOUGHTS *
The question of how to improve shifters is a difficult one to answer, and hopefully minds wiser than mine will chip in. There's a lot of dangerous potential with the class. Ultimately, I think the goal should be to make shifters fun and reasonably effective to play while still maintaining the integrity of roleplay in the Arelith setting. I think any shapeshifting class/race in a roleplaying server should be behind some kind of application, and I'm glad to see it's the case on Arelith. I wouldn't want that to go, because a fighter can run around willy-nilly and PVP and one-line people and bash corpses and, eh, it's another madman. But if a shifter does that as a manticore or gargoyle, or as an intelligent form like an azer or mindflayer, the server starts to look real silly real quick.
Hope this text-vomit of thoughts might provide some ideas to any dev wanting to take the project on!
I definitely agree for example that different forms should have different abilities and fighting styles to keep the game interesting. Shooting forms, casting forms, etc. I would add to that the idea of multiclass synergies. Just imagine a form that would increase benefits from barbarian rage or a good outsider form that increases the power of lay on hands!
You also touched upon the power level of the class and seem to think it should never be PVP solid in the hopes of keeping the class from being overused. I think it ought to be viable in PVP and PVE with two caveats:
1) Keep the overall power level of the class generally in the okayish or mediocre tier. Not commoner weak or "fun" 15 wizard 15 cleric concept weak, but not something super optimal outside of niche roles.
2) Speaking of niche roles, I don't think that *most* of the forms should play like fighters or rogues or other classes. We don't want to create opportunities for powerbuilds with a class that is intended to be played rarely and with enormous roleplaying responsibility. I think the different forms should be wildly specialized to the point that every form feels incomplete, or is very unforgiving of mistakes. Imagine for example a form with enormous AC but very littile damage and vulnerability to all elemental damage. Or a form with no constitution or AC to speak of but a modest eldritch blast type ability and some buffs. Or a skill monkey with zero combat utility.
I think that making forms frustratingly hyper-specialized could make the class powerful enough to see actual use but annoying enough to those power leveling RP ambivalent types and casual players that only a relative few devoted players will stick with it.