Haroshia wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:58 pm
Irongron wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:51 pm
Here are a few of the conculusions I have reached, though none of them is the 'answer' players may be seeking.
- Permanent subdual (never-death) would likely make PvP be treated even more lightly.
- Forgotten Realms is not the real world, death is painful, but not often final, and the afterlife is a confirmed fact, as such, we shouldn't expect (or desire) it to be treated with the finality as we might.
- Conflict between characters is far more interesting when not settled by PvP
- As a developer, if we encourage PvP resolutions, with systems such as the old settlement 'war' mechanic, or the current assassination function, or simply by having the loser pay a significant price in XP, we will see more of it.
- PvP, in moderation can be great fun, but can absolutely become stale and tired when repeated every second day.
- Many players level to 30 as fast as possible, so as to join the merry-go-round of relentless PvP
- For most, winning is far more fun than losing.
- PvP continues to cause sore OOC feelings.
- Level 30s start fighting because they've got nothing better to do with that investment.
Overall, I guess? I'd just rather players didn't desire to shut others down quite as frequently as they do, and to concentrate on story and atmosphere, to allow other space to play and realise their concepts without quickly trying to grind them into so much paste. I have no answers here, beyond a hope that players and DMs work together to do so something more interesting with this world.
Agree with all of these points, especially the bit about death being treated with finality and conflict not being settled by PvP is far more interesting. Unfortunately that seems to contradict people's desire to RP that killing IS the "be all end all" solution to dealing with problems. I think a lot of this stems from PvP being the only non-consensual conflict-resolution method available in the game.
I have gotten no end of grief both IC and OOC for RPing in a way that tries to find solutions to conflict that aren't just killbashing the "bad guy". I know my experience in this is far from unique. "Why didn't you just kill them on sight? You must be their ALLY!" is a common thing that happens. I think this stems from two people having very different points of view on how killing and death are treated. If you have two people that can't agree on these fundamental rules of the world, then I can't find a resolution to this argument.
What is a proper way to respond to this ICly? How can we handle these kind of arguments in a way that doesn't strain the setting? I've been struggling with this for a while and I can't find a good answer. The mindsets are just too contradictory to live in the same setting.
Regardless of your alignment, I may have a somewhat working retort:
So, afterlife is real in FR, right? And clerics, high level wizards and Loremasters who in P&P would specialize in either knowledge (Religion) or knowledge (Planes) would have a pretty good knowledge of how it works, right?
Now, if any of the above suits your character, I would bring up the fact that if you kill a follower of X deity, said follower will go to said deity's realm where they will go on to be a nuisance: For instance, a follower of Solonor will go to Arvandor and join the Great Archer in His hunts to the lower planes or hostile deities' realm. If you oppose Solonor, or are a servant of lower planes, it might actually be a bad idea to kill a Solonorite if you're thinking long term!
How can you resolve this? Well, sacrificing souls in FR doesn't really trap them with the deity you worship so that won't work, every other method can be reversed with Miracle/Wish and deities may hand out Quests to their followers to undo such things any way. What's the only way that really works long-term, and will save your patron from having to deal with one more celestial or favored petitioner in Solonor's Host? Conversion. Seed your foe with doubt in their faith, entice their flaws in long-term thinking with short-term gains. Try and make them become False, Faithless or best case: your patron's servant!
This likely won't work against priests and super devout servants, and those with good long-term thinking - but it may just work for the grunts and that alone is victory.
You could try bring the above up IC, adjusted to fit your/faction's deity. It works very well for Ilmatari and Lathandari, seeing how their entire vibe is in mercy and redemption. It does not work that well for racial deities (at least the conversion bit, but inducing False/Faithlessness still can work). It probably won't work at all ICly, seeing as our PCs tend to be far more familiar with things than level 5 grunts buut - you don't know that IC nor does your faction.
And surprisingly, there's a LOT of False/Faithless PCs on Arelith (I've often walked into "Gods suck" talks while wandering the server). So my assumption that "Likely won't work on PCs" may not be as strong as it is on other servers.
Ninjimmy wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:58 am
AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:16 am
Ninjimmy wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:01 am
Like Irongron said, Death isn't a permanant end in the forgotten realms. To treat it as such is to ignore the setting and the mechanics of the server.
This is the most unhealthy thing to the server, ever said on this forums. Your RP approach to death is really, REALLY lazy.
Man, I've seen a lot of posts on these forums and if "The Forgotten Realms has spell like Raise Dead and Resurrection" you think is the most unhealthy thing for this server you've ever seen posted here, you've clearly not read 50% of the threads I've seen you personally post in.
Hottest RP take; Mechanics exist and ignoring them is more detrimental to continuity and narrative than acknowledging them. More at 11.
Death
has weight, I keep saying that, but to feign that it's permanent is overwrought melodrama for the sake of lazy stakes - we can have dangers and consequence BEYOND a kill-bash if we apply ourselves. Jailtime, exile, hell even just a subdual beating.
To call every death permanent makes ACTUAL narrative deaths, heroic sacrifices, villainous comeuppances, the ones where someone rolls, feel less important because the only difference is they don't pop up 3 days later to the shock and awe of everyone, perhaps founding a religion after them for this singular and miraculous feat.
(Also, so I don't get lost in the weeds, I'm NOT advocating for whack-a-mole resurrection where you respawn, comment on how that was a long 3 minutes then get back to grinding while telling everyone you just died/got KBed. I'm advocating that treating any and all instances of someone hitting -10 HP as the end of their life so you can start bidding on their property as farcical, there IS a spot in between these two points)
With this, I feel is potentially a disconnect between OOC/IC perspectives. It probably does not affect selfish/insular PCs that much but...
Things that determine if someone can be raised in FR:
A) Does the soul wish to return? (Entirely in hands of the player!)
A1) Does the soul wish to return with aid of the deity/cleric doing the raising? (meaning: a Banite likely won't be able to raise an Ilmatari or vice versa)
B) Does the deity you petitioned to raise the individual actually care for it? (It's a DM question, but without DM handholding our best approximation is same as A1 - enemy of a character's deity likely won't want to help you)
I would imagine ICly any character with theological education would know this too (So wizards, divine champions, clerics, loremasters).
If raising someone with their patron/patron's allies help, you likely won't have to fear their patron refusing things so that's no reason to fear.
But do they want to return? That's a reason to respect and fear death. Not for your enemies, maybe not even yourself since you know your own convictions...
But for your friends, family, loved ones. I feel even evil PCs (those who are of the "Ends justify" type and still love others at least) would stop and think about this. Will the actions I am about to take endanger those I love? And if they will, can I be certain they will return?
It's a bit of a similar concept as playing a PC immune to fear. Sure, you yourself won't be frightened against any odds... but - as long as you love someone else, you WILL be worried for their well-being and not act as recklessly.
So - As a PC that's familiar with how souls/afterlife works (insert previous list here...) here's how I feel one could see death:
A) I know my duty binds me to this plane today and for the foreseeable future. But even if that conviction binds me, secures my life - even if my wounds are perfectly healed through Resurrection - I will remember the moment of death: the horrible pain that follows it that is difficult to forget. I want to avoid that pain. Let's avoid unnecessary risks.
B) I love XYZ. I do not want to lose them. I am certain we will meet again (if we follow the same patron), but I'd rather us go there together in our old age. Let us not take unnecessary risks. They say they want to do the same with me... but who knows what will happen if they see our god's realm? Can I be sure they'd want to return to this hellish painful mortal realm just to be with me? Am I that arrogant?
C) I hate ZYX. They follow a deity that seeks the death of me and those I love. I can kill them today, delay our conflict and have a moment's respite. But even if they do not return, and stay dead - once I myself die, we might meet again as ZYX become servants of their vile gods and seek to invade my own well-deserved plane of rest. I should try to prevent that, fill them with doubt... But if I do that, that might cause XYZ to be caught in the cross-fire and die...
Without treating death as permanent, while fully accepting that Raise dead, Resurrection AND True Ressurection work -
One can still ICly treat death with respect and fear and see conflict between their choices for short term vs long term.
We don't need any rules or mechanics for death. People just need to look beyond their own character, and consider that they have no control over the choices of another player and thus feel genuine fear that the character they have grown to love may disappear.
