Settlement/Region Discords

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Off the top of my head the first thing I thought of is a reminder, hey, don't forget meeting at 21:00 to discuss X event about Y.
Well, yes, this is posted in game, say a barracks or district hall or what have you, but side settlements don't need to know about X event or that's when the secret meeting time is. Because, yes, you can not remind people, but you also busy people who don't remember things. Also on that, if you post where anyone from any group sees, what's to stop them then meta gaming such to scry, interrupt, go attack a location that will have minimal people, what have you.

Sounds like you're trying to use OOC communication to avoid IC consequence.

I don't think you should be doing this?

[Curve]

Kind of a weird post. I'm not sure who jjjerm is but public forum roleplay for everyone to see would be much better than private discords. Even private forum roleplay would be better as all the DMs could read it.

Kind of a weird post. Check this out,
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/History_of_Arelith

I guess I see where you are going here but all roleplay should happen in game. Degrees of badness don't really matter.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

More active and accessible forum roleplay would make the server far more approachable to new players, and those with minimal play time or odd timezones.

It would also help balance the fact that 1 IRL day is equal to 3 days which make one ask: what does one's PC do on the 2 days not represented? Or between each weekend they can play on?

It would also help record public events that someone living in say, the Eagle in Guld would know about (that whole rain of blood thing with the stakes?) that I only learned about despite my PC living in guld by random hearsay. That's not very immersive. Like, my PC spent (pre time change) like a whole month or so in her room at the Eagle, and had absolutely no recollection of the sky raining blood and was utterly confused when someone spoke of it.

[Zavandar]

100% against forum rp

use another game/medium if that's what you're into. that's not what arelith is.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Well, as was stated, this instance would all be inside of the game also and a ping of a reminder going out, which happens on the official forums also btw so not against the rules. I get your point, but I hope you see mine and aren't assuming that the notion is to avoid ic consequences. A reminder. That is not planning or private discussing or rping outside the server so people can keep from getting found out.
The way you phrased it back at me was rather disheartening considering how many meetings I've insisted were not closed door and didn't need warded etc all so there was a chance of things being discovered.
You don't know me, I don't know you, but I prefer to assume the best of people and not jump straight to the ways they may be cheating to 'win'.

Anyway. My two cents, you pulled at one, but not the other. If they are both things that aren't understandable, reasonable, or shouldn't be done, then I concede.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

i cant coordinate my pvp on officalcord

[-XXX-]

100% against forum rp

use another game/medium if that's what you're into. that's not what arelith is.

I strongly agree with this. Looking at the bigger picture, only a small fraction of the playerbase is actually using the forum. Same could be said about Discord.

Using channels other than actual IG interactions for RP excludes the majority of other players.

If RL and time management becomes such a big issue that IC matters can't be handled IG, then perhaps the degree of involvement in the ongoing IG events might need to be reconsidered instead.
It can be really really REALLY hard, but sometimes taking a step back and admitting to ourselves that "I just can't afford to make the time to reasonably contribute to this storyline right now" can be the most responsible and considerate attitude toward fellow players.


Not all characters need to have ambitious plans. Sometimes just chilling on a sidekick character can be precisely what the doctor ordered. It certainly puts much less strain on the RL schedule.

[Kuma]

100% against forum rp

use another game/medium if that's what you're into. that's not what arelith is.

I strongly agree with this. Looking at the bigger picture, only a small fraction of the playerbase is actually using the forum. Same could be said about Discord.

Using channels other than actual IG interactions for RP excludes the majority of other players.

If RL and time management becomes such a big issue that IC matters can't be handled IG, then perhaps the degree of involvement in the ongoing IG events might need to be reconsidered instead.
It can be really really REALLY hard, but sometimes taking a step back and admitting to ourselves that "I just can't afford to make the time to reasonably contribute to this storyline right now" can be the most responsible and considerate attitude toward fellow players.


Not all characters need to have ambitious plans. Sometimes just chilling on a sidekick character can be precisely what the doctor ordered. It certainly puts much less strain on the RL schedule.

extremely good post

[Marsi]

It's unhelpful to characterize dubious faction discord behaviour as conspiracy to cheat, or metagaming, or cartoonish "psst ward up and help me pvp" (although it certainly does happen) when the problem is the "discordification effect" itself.

A faction or a settlement is a narrative device, not the basis of a social clique. The more social infrastructure there is along fault lines of in-character affiliation, the more there is to lose and the more tribal and self-preservationist the ensuing play must become. As others have pointed out, any would be spies or saboteurs must become IRL gaslighters too.

For this reason I have never felt that a DM being in a server makes it "ok", because no-one is doing anything "Wrong" but its contributing to the cultural malaise and the slow breakdown of healthy conflict engagement and sportsmanship all the same. They're creatively compromised from the start.

Also, the idea that asynchronous RP like forum RP or faction discords are to the advantage of casual/time-constrained players is misguided. In actuality, asynchronous RP actually helps the already advantaged perma-online, hyper-coordinated NEET players all the more, who fully inhabit these spaces and make them weird and alienating for anyone who can't be glued to a device all week.

ps. It's telling how closely the pro-discord camp tracks with the anti- guildhouse changes camp :X

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

ps. It's telling how closely the pro-discord camp tracks with the anti- guildhouse changes camp :X

Honestly I read through this thread and don't see anyone that is really "pro" discord lol. Its more a "Sure discord sucks but you are asking the impossible by saying they need to be eliminated".

[Crookedblossom]

I don't think the intent of the discussion is directly advocating for eliminating settlement/faction discords. That's a tall order, sure. What I do see is advocacy for general awareness that these are probably not conducive to or healthy for the server as a whole.

There is a difference between having a personal discord for use between friends and an "official" settlement/faction discord and I feel like often, those lines are very blurred. I understand that its neat to feel like you're part of a close-knit community and that private discords can give that feeling more than the busy, actual official one.

But the problem with blurring the lines between personal friend discord servers and "official" settlement/faction servers is that (whether knowingly or not) it can breed a closed off environment excluding opportunities for conflict RP that is not approved of or proctored by those within it, or outright be used to discourage RP with certain conflict creators, as stated by some folks above.

"Ours won't be that way" is a very nice sentiment, but it has consistently been enough of an issue that the team appears to be addressing it more and more as it happens outside of the official discord. That's something to consider. Even if you have no intention of falling into toxic exclusive OOC behavior, the problem is that the private server creates an environment where it can easily develop, quickly and beyond player moderators' ability to control sometimes.

I realize none of what I said is new, but I just wanted to add how I feel. To answer OP, I do not believe they're really necessary, no.

[Wethrinea]

I for one enjoy Arelith more by being in a settlement discord than I did before I joined one. I have played on various NwN servers more or less since the game came out, with some long breaks in between, and to me the game itself has never been the main attraction. Rather, it is the people behind the characters you get to know over time that gives NwN this truly special allure of both an enjoyable game and a community of extraordinary creativity.

Before Discord it was usually forums that served the same purpose, where you could have all those things you can't mechanically have IG. Screenshots, "books", banter, discussion on various subjects related to the game, from builds to philosophy on alignments and everything in between.

Now, I know there are people who would like everything to be planned and managed solely IG, through couriers, message boards and the like. And I respect that position, and all the more those who manage to have fun within those constraints. But that playstyle is not for me, both due to limited playtime and the lack of community I feel it brings. Again, this applies to me, and I have no doubt others see it differently, without either of us being wrong.

That does not mean I use Discord (or forums back in the days) to give myself advantages IG, and I do believe I manage to separate IC and OOC just as well as the next player. Rather, it gives me the sense of community I enjoy with NwN, and is very practical when it comes to portioning my spare time so I can get the most out of it, and hopefully give my best to others so that they will enjoy interacting with my characters.

Discords can be toxic, certainly, and I have seen my share of it. But so can IG boards be. And ceaseless wisps/messengers and assassination contracts.

Toxicity is a function of player attitude, not medium.

[Marsi]

Now, I know there are people who would like everything to be solely IG, through couriers, message boards and the like. And I respect that position, and all the more those who manage to have fun within those constraints. But that playstyle is not for me, both due to limited playtime and the lack of community I feel it brings. Again, this applies to me, and I have no doubt others see it differently, without either of us being wrong.

Err, that isn't a position those are actually the rules. Keeping things IG is not a matter of preference lmao.

[Hazard]

Now, I know there are people who would like everything to be solely IG, through couriers, message boards and the like. And I respect that position, and all the more those who manage to have fun within those constraints. But that playstyle is not for me, both due to limited playtime and the lack of community I feel it brings. Again, this applies to me, and I have no doubt others see it differently, without either of us being wrong.

Err, that isn't a position those are actually the rules. Keeping things IG is not a matter of preference lmao.

They probably didn't mean to word it exactly that way, but yeah .. just in case. We should be reminded these are not preferences.
No roleplay is allowed to happen on the forums/discord/anywhere but the game. If something didn't happen in game it didn't happen. If someone left you a "letter" outside the game for example, that's metagaming and against the rules.

All IC interactions must happen in-game, online, on the server.

[Kuma]

Discords can be toxic, certainly, and I have seen my share of it. But so can IG boards be. And ceaseless wisps/messengers and assassination contracts.

Toxicity is a function of player attitude, not medium.

I don't think they're in any way comparable, especially since IG expressions of "OOC toxicity" can be reported to the DMs, certainly with far greater ease than anything conducted over Discord.

[Marsi]

The whole post reads to me like an unwitting revelation of the kind of alt-culture instilled by paracommunity faction discords who insist themselves on new players the way a regular friend discord wouldn't. There are players who spend much if not all their Arelith experience in a microcosm and probably have no idea how divergent and borderline rulebreaking ideas around them are, that are normalised by the players taking point.

[Wethrinea]

Err, that isn't a position those are actually the rules. Keeping things IG is not a matter of preference lmao.

They probably didn't mean to word it exactly that way, but yeah .. just in case. We should be reminded these are not preferences.
No roleplay is allowed to happen on the forums/discord/anywhere but the game. If something didn't happen in game it didn't happen. If someone left you a "letter" outside the game for example, that's metagaming and against the rules.

All IC interactions must happen in-game, online, on the server.

Clarified my previous post as I see it could give the wrong impression. Every character interaction is naturally IG, it is the planning of events I refer to, which I find much more practical over Discord than un-editable notices IG that leave no practical way of discussing availability.

I also hope that people would assume less, and ask more, when it comes to what environment one think other players may or may not spend their time in.

[Flower Power]

Kind of a weird post. I'm not sure who jjjerm is

jjjerm was the original owner of the server. He was a white, middle-aged man widely believed to be an Evangelical Christian who established the core server rules based around one foundational principle: he never wanted to have to bother to do community management in the form of actually dealing with complaints: so he banned naughty words, sexy elven fun times and playing gay people so that he'd never have to deal with complaints from parents angry that their kids were exposed to radical ideas like sometimes people love people who are the same gender as they are on Arelith.

Which is why it's a little funny that some of Arelith's oldest rules are held up as the gospel truth of how the server should be run, but this is an off-topic server history dump.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

100% against forum rp

use another game/medium if that's what you're into. that's not what arelith is.

I strongly agree with this. Looking at the bigger picture, only a small fraction of the playerbase is actually using the forum. Same could be said about Discord.

Using channels other than actual IG interactions for RP excludes the majority of other players.

If RL and time management becomes such a big issue that IC matters can't be handled IG, then perhaps the degree of involvement in the ongoing IG events might need to be reconsidered instead.
It can be really really REALLY hard, but sometimes taking a step back and admitting to ourselves that "I just can't afford to make the time to reasonably contribute to this storyline right now" can be the most responsible and considerate attitude toward fellow players.


Not all characters need to have ambitious plans. Sometimes just chilling on a sidekick character can be precisely what the doctor ordered. It certainly puts much less strain on the RL schedule.

Some examples that were immersion breaking due to the lack of forum RP threads where DMs or people can post rumours:

My PC lived in Bendir from level 10 to 20 with her partner. One particular day, the Hawk Inn was the sight a major battle involving weird shadows and a kidnapping that had a tangible effect on everyone present at the inn.

This I learned of as a passing statement, and was utterly confused as I was ICly present but not IG. If there was a forum post of "X settlement/building attack by Y!" - I could have preloaded an appropriate reaction rather than going, "wait what? Where was I when this happened?!"

Of late, she lives in the Eagle and the same issue happened. Explain to me how someone who lives on the first floor, and probably walks outside to the nearest to collect some water for bathing or washing, missed days of blood raining from the sky.

It just does not make sense, and it takes people out of immersion as somehow despite living right where some big thing that you cannot ignore and need to be solipsistic to not notice - you did not notice.


This issue would be lessened if time was 1:1 but it'd still be present. Forum posts summarizing major events that happened in a settlement that their citizens and residents would experience would massively help immersion.

And no, message boards do not help as they're second hand information which you may not even see and be in a weird position of living in the same location as someone else, and NOT witnessing the impossible to miss rain of blood while they did and suddenly rip immersion.

[-XXX-]

Some examples that were immersion breaking due to the lack of forum RP threads where DMs or people can post rumours:

My PC lived in Bendir from level 10 to 20 with her partner. One particular day, the Hawk Inn was the sight a major battle involving weird shadows and a kidnapping that had a tangible effect on everyone present at the inn.

This I learned of as a passing statement, and was utterly confused as I was ICly present but not IG. If there was a forum post of "X settlement/building attack by Y!" - I could have preloaded an appropriate reaction rather than going, "wait what? Where was I when this happened?!"

Of late, she lives in the Eagle and the same issue happened. Explain to me how someone who lives on the first floor, and probably walks outside to the nearest to collect some water for bathing or washing, missed days of blood raining from the sky.

It just does not make sense, and it takes people out of immersion as somehow despite living right where some big thing that you cannot ignore and need to be solipsistic to not notice - you did not notice.

This is still a game and players need to recognize its limitations.

Personally I'd expect players to come up with an excuse why their character couldn't have noticed all the things happening IG while they were offline rather than demand to be kept posted OOC for the sake of their own immersion.

We're all playing on an RP server with magic, dragons and wizards - it's not such a stretch to expect players to use their imagination.

[Kuma]

utterly confused as I was ICly present but not IG.

No you weren't. You weren't logged in, so you weren't there. That's okay. Get filled in by others ICly but otherwise, you weren't there. It's your job to make excuses (or handwaves) as to how you couldn't react if you even choose to do so, but I've never found that difficult.

"Where was I when this happened?!" idk, adventuring? drinking in another town? foraging for berries or whatever midgets do in bendir? like this isn't a big deal

We've gotten away without forum RP for about 15 years. Let's not start now. If anything this is more of a call for better tools for DMs (or for DMs to use those tools if they already exist) to better reflect these sorts of events IG, but ultimately, it's not a big deal whatsoever. Just go with it.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

Some examples that were immersion breaking due to the lack of forum RP threads where DMs or people can post rumours:

My PC lived in Bendir from level 10 to 20 with her partner. One particular day, the Hawk Inn was the sight a major battle involving weird shadows and a kidnapping that had a tangible effect on everyone present at the inn.

This I learned of as a passing statement, and was utterly confused as I was ICly present but not IG. If there was a forum post of "X settlement/building attack by Y!" - I could have preloaded an appropriate reaction rather than going, "wait what? Where was I when this happened?!"

Of late, she lives in the Eagle and the same issue happened. Explain to me how someone who lives on the first floor, and probably walks outside to the nearest to collect some water for bathing or washing, missed days of blood raining from the sky.

It just does not make sense, and it takes people out of immersion as somehow despite living right where some big thing that you cannot ignore and need to be solipsistic to not notice - you did not notice.

This is still a game and players need to recognize its limitations.

Personally I'd expect players to come up with an excuse why their character couldn't have noticed all the things happening IG while they were offline rather than demand to be kept posted OOC for the sake of their own immersion.

We're all playing on an RP server with magic, dragons and wizards - it's not such a stretch to expect players to use their imagination.

The existence of magic does not preclude the ultimate goal of roleplay: Immersion. Self-consistency is the key of immersion, not relation to meatspace's own physics.

Other servers resolve the limitation that one cannot be IG 24/7 while their characters do not disappear when they log off by having a DM rumour/event thread for things that affect settlements and cannot be ignored.

utterly confused as I was ICly present but not IG.

No you weren't. You weren't logged in, so you weren't there. That's okay. Get filled in by others ICly but otherwise, you weren't there. It's your job to make excuses (or handwaves) as to how you couldn't react if you even choose to do so, but I've never found that difficult.

"Where was I when this happened?!" idk, adventuring? drinking in another town? foraging for berries or whatever midgets do in bendir? like this isn't a big deal

We've gotten away without forum RP for about 15 years. Let's not start now. If anything this is more of a call for better tools for DMs (or for DMs to use those tools if they already exist) to better reflect these sorts of events IG, but ultimately, it's not a big deal whatsoever. Just go with it.

If I only play on weekends, there's 15 entire days my character should be within her room, attending to hygenie and reading. How is it that in those 15 days she had absolutely no recollection of apparently multiple days of blood rains and the consequent clean up?

[The GrumpyCat]

100% against forum rp

use another game/medium if that's what you're into. that's not what arelith is.

I strongly agree with this. Looking at the bigger picture, only a small fraction of the playerbase is actually using the forum. Same could be said about Discord.

Using channels other than actual IG interactions for RP excludes the majority of other players.

If RL and time management becomes such a big issue that IC matters can't be handled IG, then perhaps the degree of involvement in the ongoing IG events might need to be reconsidered instead.
It can be really really REALLY hard, but sometimes taking a step back and admitting to ourselves that "I just can't afford to make the time to reasonably contribute to this storyline right now" can be the most responsible and considerate attitude toward fellow players.


Not all characters need to have ambitious plans. Sometimes just chilling on a sidekick character can be precisely what the doctor ordered. It certainly puts much less strain on the RL schedule.

Some examples that were immersion breaking due to the lack of forum RP threads where DMs or people can post rumours:

My PC lived in Bendir from level 10 to 20 with her partner. One particular day, the Hawk Inn was the sight a major battle involving weird shadows and a kidnapping that had a tangible effect on everyone present at the inn.

This I learned of as a passing statement, and was utterly confused as I was ICly present but not IG. If there was a forum post of "X settlement/building attack by Y!" - I could have preloaded an appropriate reaction rather than going, "wait what? Where was I when this happened?!"

Of late, she lives in the Eagle and the same issue happened. Explain to me how someone who lives on the first floor, and probably walks outside to the nearest to collect some water for bathing or washing, missed days of blood raining from the sky.

It just does not make sense, and it takes people out of immersion as somehow despite living right where some big thing that you cannot ignore and need to be solipsistic to not notice - you did not notice.


This issue would be lessened if time was 1:1 but it'd still be present. Forum posts summarizing major events that happened in a settlement that their citizens and residents would experience would massively help immersion.

And no, message boards do not help as they're second hand information which you may not even see and be in a weird position of living in the same location as someone else, and NOT witnessing the impossible to miss rain of blood while they did and suddenly rip immersion.

XXX and Kuma have covered this pretty well, to be honest but to reiterate: any pc that somehow demonizes or denegrates you for not being around In Game 24/7, that blames your character for something because you were offline - is a big fat jerk and not someone you should be pandering to.

I'm very glad to say though that I don't think I've come across this much in my 15 years of playing NWN. Most people recognise that you can't be online constantly. People are happy to nod mildly along with any excuse your character makes for not being there.

And remember that how you recieve information, the first way you recieve it, can very much effect how you feel about something and even how you respond.

For example
You'll probably have a different response to:
Furum Announcement

Denizens of the Hawks Nest in today would be abuzz with new of an attack on one of their residents. Frodo Bagins was attacked by Legolas Greenleaf this day and though the halfling was not slain, he was badly wounded.

To
Discord

PippinMerioadoc233: 'Lol did you hear what happend? Frodo - you know that player right? They were nearly pvped to death over some dumb item by that douche Legolas. What a PVP hound! And in front of the NPCS! How awful is that! Freaking metagamers!'

To
In Game

*Your character steps out of their room, and spots an elf*
Thingol: Ho! Halfling - a word if I may ? Do you know where the mayor is?'
You: 'No I do not. What is this about?'
Thingol: 'Something of great import. A cousin of mine, Legolas of the Greenwoods, did attack one of your citizens, Frodo. It is over a ring in his possession which we do grear is some very foul artifact indeed. We think the ring hath taken hold of him. He refused to agree to hand it over, even for Legolas to touch!'
You: 'Well, I wasn't there for this. I was off picking berries in the wood. But please, tell me more about it?'

I don't know about you, but I think I'd rather have my initial reaction, on an ooc level , be based more on IC information - even if that information is false (Perhaps especially if it is). than though ooc channels.

I remember being told once that the reason that we didn't have a section for In Game Events on the forum was that the Lead at the time (I think it was Mithreas? But could have been JJJerm) Wanted people to play Arelith with NO other pre-requisits. To enjoy arelith, to get involved, you shouldn't need the forums, or discord, or anything else. Just the game itself.

And this is a neat idea which I pretty much support and actually... bar perhaps a few base tips and downloads... remains true. The Forums hold some pretty important bits of information - and they're the way you send reports to the DMs. But that's about the height of it.

'But I need discord to contact people!'
You have Tells for that when they're logged on and when they're not... just wait for them.

'But I need Discord to arrange events!'
Not neccesarly. You can write up a rough time and date for the event in Game on a message board. It's actually one of the few situations where we as DMs are tottaly OK with (( ooc text)) - to give RL time/dates for events. Then hopefully if people are logged on they will see it, and will either attend, or will contact you and you can work out new times. There's also the ooc -faction messages for similar matters.

'But I need Discord to plan builds!'
You can do that over Tells too.

But I need Discord to contact DMs!
Nope. There's a DM channel.

But I need Discord to find out what's going on In Game!
Then you should be talking to characters In Game. See above.

Now this isn't to say that Forum/Discord is useless, or inherently bad, or any of that. Not at all! Both are VERY useful. They help enable a little of a bit of the above. And it's nice to have a friendly community OOCly for sure.

But I think what people mean when they say 'You can't play without Discord' they really mean. 'I can't play optimally' without Discord. But that's not an entirely bad thing. You SHOULDN'T know everything - either ICly or OOCly. You should be turned astray (especially ICly) You SHOULD be making mistakes. That's part of the game. And yes, Discord does grease the wheels a bit - but those wheels do still turn perfectly well without it.

I'm not telling people not to use Discord. Far from it.

But I'd really suggest keeping as much In Game as possible, embrace your own falibilty.


EDIT:

If I only play on weekends, there's 15 entire days my character should be within her room, attending to hygenie and reading. How is it that in those 15 days she had absolutely no recollection of apparently multiple days of blood rains and the consequent clean up?

'Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't in my room. I was out visiting a friend in Cordor.' 'I've not been feeling well and was locked up in my rooms for that.' 'I've been on a long walk, a dream quest to find myself.' 'I went to Sibiyad to do some training.' 'I went to the mainland briefly to visit my parents.'

Most people are playing on the same page. They understand and will happily accept pretty much any excuse you give them because they know you can't be around and there is no 'update' message.
Also with the time changes and time going slower now, the periods involved will now be much smaller.

[DM Monkey]

It would be great for players to show a tiny bit of creativity in this. Maybe YOU are not logged in. Your character doesn't cease to exist, they're simply busy with other things, outside of the MAIN SPOTLIGHT of action on Arelith. It's important to also show some common sense in this regard: If your character isn't in game and present for an event, then they were not there.

e.g. Mr Bob the Builder was in Cordor the day the aliens attacked, but he happened to be doing some housework that was so noisy he just never realised! The next day when he came out, he looked around and though, 'Gee, where are all the people?! I better go ask someone what happened!' Then the player of Bob the Builder goes and finds out IC, gets told what happened, and now they know what happened.

(Also, everything you can do on discord? You can do that in game.)

[Drowboy]

any pc that somehow demonizes or denegrates you for not being around In Game 24/7, that blames your character for something because you were offline - is a big fat jerk and not someone you should be pandering to.

This really needs reiterating. Sometimes people do things to self-identify as not worth your time, and this is one of the big ones. Anyone that's a jerk about the near-universal "problem" of people not spending 19 hours a day due to not being a high schooler on summer break or something, needs to get some perspective.