Quarterbreaking

[Marsi]

It's baffling to claim "items don't matter, gold doesn't matter, your character doesn't matter" when these things all demonstrably do, and don't just influence storytelling, they "are" storytelling, they are all three the means through which we engage in the act of storytelling on Arelith. If you strip all three of those things out, what exactly are we left with? The understatement the mechanics of the server as irrelevant distractions is to me as unhealthy as the more frequently maligned, spreadsheet madness of the latest "meta."

I believe their point is that IG possessions are just storytelling props, and being that all stories are valid - including the one in which your character gets fleeced - they can't be said to be YOUR possessions any more than stage props belong to an actor.

I feel somewhat the same way, though more with the quarter itself than the items, because a quarter is more obviously a quasi communal good than a sword. But I admit this is not a perfect analogy as IRL time and labour goes into acquisition.

I still have not gotten an answer as to why pickpocket and disarm was changed, if this is the general sentiment people have towards their items.

My guess is that pickpocket and disarm are both mechanics that were likely easy to change at the source. They're more direct acts of aggression involving taking out of someone else very inventory, unlike their quarter, which represents an excess of items/wealth. Not that I don't agree that it doesn't quite make sense that it remains when other might makes right mechanics were touched up, its just that quarter-breakers are relatively rare so most people don't care enough to be incensed by it - even if it has happened to them.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

Part of a persistent world is that sometimes very closed off plots get some interjection from a unexpected party.
As long as they dont just trash-barrel it and RP around it instead? RP is there, RP is fostered. The two times I participated in stealing something from a quarter that wasn't just stealing items back the RP eventually came around again for the robbed person.
It kinda makes me sad to know that there are entire plots that will never be altered by "outsiders" because it's immune by virtue of never interacting with others.

Nothing should be perfectly sealed off and need a direct immediate and constant interaction. That simply isn't always possible.

I am more unhappy with the fact that someone steals my little stack of crafting mats because then I have to do more mundane work that has fairly little RP value or even potential.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I wasn't personally interested in the story, but if taking my piece of loot that could sell for 30-50k helps them tell their story, I'm all for it. Because again, none of it matters.

If it doesn't matter, and it has the zero relevance on storytelling you claim it does, how does taking or not taking a piece of loot make any difference? What meaningful story does it create, if the presence of the item makes no difference? How? Frankly, I imagine the amount of 1 gp value cheese slices stolen pales in comparison to the amount of, let's say mithril dusts that are stolen -- I don't think that's a fluke.

It makes little difference to my story, as I pointed out. But it might make a big difference to someone else's story. The only time quarterbreaking was a thing I had to deal with was my brief time as a chancellor. To me the items I was leaving in my chest were just things i had no need for, since I had all the gold I could possibly ever need already and anything important was safely in bank storage. I don't know the percentage of quarter breakers that actually use the things to steal to further their own story, and I don't want to know because the percentage is probably depressing, but I like to think it does happen from time to time. "Hey, I stole this item from the bleeding chancellor of cordor, let me in your club of evil mcevilsons!" To me even the slight chance of being able to play that small role in someone elses story is worth 30 thousand in gold or whatever.

Peoples, your fixtures, your items, even your character themselves mean very little in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that matters is the story your character tells.

Maybe in some grand, long-term overview where all that we measure is what we can recall many years later, all things are probably not so relevant, but that overview doesn't quite strike me as relevant, because this is a game that's supposed to be fun for one reason or another. It's baffling to claim "items don't matter, gold doesn't matter, your character doesn't matter" when these things all demonstrably do, and don't just influence storytelling, they "are" storytelling, they are all three the means through which we engage in the act of storytelling on Arelith. If you strip all three of those things out, what exactly are we left with? The understatement the mechanics of the server as irrelevant distractions is to me as unhealthy as the more frequently maligned, spreadsheet madness of the latest "meta."

I don't even disagree with you on the point that the obsession with "who owns what" is deleterious, and is a real problem with player culture on the server right now. But I do disagree, and strongly, that a loathing for what quarterbreaking means in practice is equitable with that obsession.

I say they don't matter because imo they don't. A three month character with epic plans that they fail miserably trying to accomplish is way more interesting to me then a 5 year character with all the things, just to use an easy but not all encompassing example, because one creates a story that is unique and the other just did what anyone could do with enough time and effort. I appreciate you don't share my opinion, but that's where I am at. Given that truth, you probably can see why I think all material possession concerns (aka cyber bits) are similar, be they housing, items, or fixtures.

[Duchess Says]

I wouldn't advise anyone to keep anything that matters in their settlement storage, it's far more insecure than quarters and I really wish that would be looked at. Found this out the hard way.

[I will never sleep]

Part of a persistent world is that sometimes very closed off plots get some interjection from a unexpected party.
As long as they dont just trash-barrel it and RP around it instead? RP is there, RP is fostered. The two times I participated in stealing something from a quarter that wasn't just stealing items back the RP eventually came around again for the robbed person.
It kinda makes me sad to know that there are entire plots that will never be altered by "outsiders" because it's immune by virtue of never interacting with others.

Nothing should be perfectly sealed off and need a direct immediate and constant interaction. That simply isn't always possible.

I am more unhappy with the fact that someone steals my little stack of crafting mats because then I have to do more mundane work that has fairly little RP value or even potential.

Interaction is roleplay. I don't really see your point, here. Are you saying it's sometimes fine to not interact? There are ways to alter plots, that involve actually interacting with the person in some way, and not just taking their items while they are asleep. The aggressors might roleplay with eachother, but not with the person affected. And theft is a form of pvp. Why do we have the RP before PvP rules again? That feels like a mechanical "win". Not roleplay. Sure, roleplay "happens", but how is it fun for me, if I never get to actually... roleplay, myself?

I've really experienced the opposite extreme of this far more often. Just look at how players responded to the Warlock Teaser, which was just a teaser. Everyone wants to be the hero of their own story, and to hell with what other players are feeling or thinking. Everyone wants to 'solve' every plot right this second (and it is usually solved with pvp, completely uninteractive pvp, sometimes).

Sometimes people will work to 'solve' them, without ever interacting with relevant parties, which also leads to a lot of current server culture issues regarding rp around 'antagonists'.

The issue here, is calling some items from a """personal minecraft fort""", part of a narrative. Yet being tone deaf to the lack of narrative in how they are acquired in a most anti-narrative, anti-interactive kind of way.

[Marsi]

The issue here, is calling some items from a """personal minecraft fort""", part of a narrative. Yet being tone deaf to the lack of narrative in how they are acquired in a most anti-narrative, anti-interactive kind of way.

The only thing I'm tone deaf to is this weird chagrined attitude to practically non-existent criminal RP

[LichBait]

Definitely not a fan of no RP quarter breaking. The only times I've noticed it is when chests are silently emptied of useful materials one day at a time by a troll with absolutely no way to figure out who did it and no way to interact. You just eat it and move on.

I don't mind quarter breaking for the purposes of spy craft, but wordless theft without RP is a disheartening bummer that really shouldn't be a thing since there is no counterplay. Pickpocket has spot. Quarter breaking should have counter investigative tools if it's going to happen, which at this time it doesn't.

[I will never sleep]

The issue here, is calling some items from a """personal minecraft fort""", part of a narrative. Yet being tone deaf to the lack of narrative in how they are acquired in a most anti-narrative, anti-interactive kind of way.

The only thing I'm tone deaf to is this weird chagrined attitude to practically non-existent criminal RP

I don't think quarterbreaking is required for Criminal RP. There's tons of seedy stuff people can do. How quickly evil just gets shut out of stories on the surface probably is a larger hamper, and symptom of a larger cultural problem. Likely the only reason quarterbreaking and such has survived, like you said, is BECAUSE it is so quiet. BECAUSE it is so uninteractive. I also don't think because it is somewhat rare (really not as rare as a lot of people seem to think here) it somehow isn't a problem.

There's little explanation else why pickpocketing and disarm was changed but this remains. Lockpicking someone's door is a lot less visual crime than someone wrestling your weapon out of your hands, and the onus is on the person that doesn't want to get caught to leave clues. And it's not required, just encouraged. They have all the power in the scenario, because the other person is asleep.

This needs to change, in my opinion, if the act of quarterbreaking is ever going to be meaningful for all parties involved. Either some mechanical way to investigate, or other ideas entertained in either thread.

I admit, I do lean towards the notion of it being scrapped entirely, as per the OP. Pickpocketing went. Disarm went. In my opinion, it is time for this to go. Crime rp, or quarterbreaking in this instance, is not worth defending or preserving if only one party consistently gets any kind of interaction out of it. I've never extracted RP from quarterthieves, myself, personally, without some manner of DM intervention, and I'm someone that has both done a decent bit of it and been broken into a good amount.

[chris a gogo]

Around 12 months ago i had a quarter broken into and a note left.
After attempting to follow up on it with the guards and others factions to attempt to gain some traction around it, i was met with a complete lack of interest towards it.
So really there is no grand master thief plot line to be made because no one is interested in the role play around someone breaking into quarters.

[Deryliss]

Around 12 months ago i had a quarter broken into and a note left.
After attempting to follow up on it with the guards and others factions to attempt to gain some traction around it, i was met with a complete lack of interest towards it.
So really there is no grand master thief plot line to be made because no one is interested in the role play around someone breaking into quarters.

This is my experience as well. I had my quarter broken into a few months ago. Thief left a note, but the response from other players varied from complete lack of interest to 'well, the note is signed with a pseudonym so it could have been literally anyone case closed'.

I don't think QB is ever going away.. not because its worth keeping, but because the romantic notions that surround it (espionage! intrigue! assassins lying in wait! infiltrators!) will always prop up the mechanic as being *potentially* cool, even if that potential manifests a fraction of the time.

[fulminea]

Yeah I got a gembag stolen and a miningbag, lots of good stuff was in there.

I don't want to think about the hours of playtime that ate.

[Skibbles]

I'm pretty sure that pickpocketing and disarming was prioritized for change because they were much more accessible to level up and play and were thus much more numerous.

Maybe it's changed but a QB character requires so much class/feat/misc specialization that they are useless and unplayable in most other aspects of the game and are comparatively rare as a result. I imagine it gets very boring very fast to play such a character - especially that non-interaction is core to their usual MO.

Whereas disarm just required two feats to be stealing high end gear on the reg while keeping your build well intact.

Seems like a priority thing to me rather than a deliberate inconsistency.

[Edens_Fall]

I don't mind it honestly. I've stolen fixtures before to make room for new ones and I've had my personal quarters broken into and items stolen. Long as it is within the rules of one every 24 RL hours I Don't see an issue.

Fun story: I had a fixture stolen from my home and later saw it auctioned for big money. So now I assume it's in someone's collection being enjoyed as a trophy. I have also seen paintings from past PCs floating around here and there. I find it all pretty awesome personally.

[-XXX-]

I wouldn't advise anyone to keep anything that matters in their settlement storage, it's far more insecure than quarters and I really wish that would be looked at. Found this out the hard way.

What are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

[The GrumpyCat]

A while ago there was a thread about what sort of groups and factions people wanted to see played. And I recall that the idea of 'thieves guild' came up a lot. And though I can tottaly see the appeal of this, I also thought at the time that it wasn't a great idea.

The problem with thief roleplay is that to be a /good/ thief, (in terms of getting in and out with the goods, remaing unseen, making gold at others expense ect) ultimatly the is no roleplay. To be a skilled thief, to be a 'competent' thief tends to rely on not getting caught - and that means no roleplay for the victim.

Now this can be gotten around to a degree by randsoming things and such - but that's a huge risk. People get very funny about loosing anything - even if the value isn't that huge.

I remember when the pickpocketing rules came in, and people were able to take gold out of your bank account - people were going around saying 'I'm going to keep all my gold in a faction account! So my bank account is always empty and thus thieves can never steal from it HAH!'

Never mind that such means you can never effectivly have a quarter/shop. People were so /terrified/ that they might loose 1k gp every now and then, they were willing to absolutly sabotage themselves in all other ways.

I'd suggest some rule or mechanic like 'You can't break into another pcs quarter unless they themselves are online at the time.' Except I've a feeling that people would literally start /not logging in/ for fear that their stuff would get stolen.

There's an outcry that having fixtures stolen leads to no rp. I don't really think that's fair. Maybe it doesn't always neccearly lead to rp for you, but what about the thief? What about the rp they may, or may not be, engaging in?

To add - and stress - I DO actually semi agree with the idea that maybe chests shouldn't not be stealable from. I see the argument agauinst that. It isn't neccesarly something I care deeply about - but I see the argument and think it's a good one. Loosing 100ks worth of stuff can be awful.

But House entering? I think that often results in some sort of rp if the owner of the house notices it.

Maybe it isn't rp that involves the owner of the house. But I think it still exists. And that it's still relevent.

[Skibbles]

I wouldn't advise anyone to keep anything that matters in their settlement storage, it's far more insecure than quarters and I really wish that would be looked at. Found this out the hard way.

What are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

The rumor I heard is that you can simply access the settlement storage of another character while they're actively looking in it.

Seems like something that should be immediately reported if it were to happen, as it doesn't seem like an intentional mechanic under any other circumstance.

[Tarkus the dog]

i made a nice fixture once

now its gone

if you cant be a fixture maker you can be a fixture taker

[Curve]

With what you say, grumpy, in mind I would be worried that If a no chest breaking were to be enacted I’d be worried that people start storing boards in chest so they can’t be spied on.

[ltlukoziuz]

I wouldn't advise anyone to keep anything that matters in their settlement storage, it's far more insecure than quarters and I really wish that would be looked at. Found this out the hard way.

What are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

The rumor I heard is that you can simply access the settlement storage of another character while they're actively looking in it.

Seems like something that should be immediately reported if it were to happen, as it doesn't seem like an intentional mechanic under any other circumstance.

That is not rumor, that is THE TRUTH, known from day 1 it was released. Do not access your storages if there's anyone around. It has happened on release, and I've seen instances of it happen even this week (once I deliberately shown my storage to another character to offer trade, in other situation another person shown a screenshot of random item getting replaced in their storage).

[FallenDabus]

Given it is the Forgotten Realms, I imagine they could be neat little additions for an update.

1. Alarm Warding ~ Can have an abjuration specialist ward your door for 72 rl hours. If it gets broken into, it automatically sends a message to six characters that can be listed when it is cast.

2. Duplicate Feydust Trap ~ You can have an illusion specialist create a fake duplicate of an item. If it is disturbed, it explodes in fey glitter that will not wash off for 24 game hours. Need to be logged in for it to expire. If it goes off, it leaves "tracks" that can be investigated like regular tracks. Just they can not be removed by mundane means.

3. Duplicate Scrying Object ~ Similar to the gnomish trap, a diviner specialist can create a fake duplicate of an item that can be used as a scrying focus. Or even make a regular item a scrying object, so if someone steals your very expensive red herring, you can track them down.

Make them sensibly expensive, but the basic idea is to add an element of risk and possible investigation. These are also just ideas I pulled out of a hat. I am sure something a lot better can be figured out.

[The GrumpyCat]

Given it is the Forgotten Realms, I imagine they could be neat little additions for an update.

1. Alarm Warding ~ Can have an abjuration specialist ward your door for 72 rl hours. If it gets broken into, it automatically sends a message to six characters that can be listed when it is cast.

2. Duplicate Feydust Trap ~ You can have an illusion specialist create a fake duplicate of an item. If it is disturbed, it explodes in fey glitter that will not wash off for 24 game hours. Need to be logged in for it to expire. If it goes off, it leaves "tracks" that can be investigated like regular tracks. Just they can not be removed by mundane means.

3. Duplicate Scrying Object ~ Similar to the gnomish trap, a diviner specialist can create a fake duplicate of an item that can be used as a scrying focus. Or even make a regular item a scrying object, so if someone steals your very expensive red herring, you can track them down.

Make them sensibly expensive, but the basic idea is to add an element of risk and possible investigation. These are also just ideas I pulled out of a hat. I am sure something a lot better can be figured out.

A lot of those sound like really awsome ideas! I love it!

TBH though I'd say the 'Feydust Trap' would be set off as soon as someone breaks into a house. Meaning that they're trackable for a time. Or possibly do it on a fixture so if the fixture is moved it's set off? But not neccesarly an 'item'

Forthe thrid one I'd make it only work on a real object. (if that's possible) and enable you to know the objects location. For a given amount of time. (Maybe it lasts for a month?) Of all of them this seems to be the most difficult and unlikely to be codable, but I love the concept in principle.

[Duchess Says]

I wouldn't advise anyone to keep anything that matters in their settlement storage, it's far more insecure than quarters and I really wish that would be looked at. Found this out the hard way.

What are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

I don't want to encourage by giving too many details how I think it happens but I recently saw a very high value item "pop" out of my storage vault when I had it open in a high traffic area. It seemed difficult to prove and I didn't expect DMs to help so didn't report but a few friends have backed me up that they've had similar experience.

Anecdotal so react appropriately, I just wouldn't trust settlement storage as being more secure than a quarter. Breaking into a quarter requires really specific skills most won't build for so it's still very rare (moreso now that trickery clerics are disabled). stealing from an open tray just seems to require chutzpah.

[godhand-]

i have a quarterbreaker. I play it.

I don't really see the point in petty theft. But, i do however, lend my services out at a price.
I understand you think there is no interactive roleplay, but that doesn't take into account all the roleplay with others characters for my services.

This builds alot of roleplay with other people/factions around them wanting items. Most of the time, i don't even actually break into quarters, Its kind of like what is described in the assassin class.
"-a large chunk of the game is devoted to merely finding out about the mark, and you rarely get the chance to actually assassinate them properly"
You spend more time learning about the mark and all these others bits than you ever actually do breaking into a quarter.

However, I also play a rather unwise character. when i DO break into a place I leave a note.... That points to -exactly- where i can be found. Because, after-all, its a roleplay server.
I'm not giving PROOF it was me, but i'm definitely giving you enough of a chance to figure out where you can come looking, and start investigating... I welcome it, because, i welcome roleplay.

I understand if the above is not enough for some, and they will be unhappy no matter what...
i am not here to change your mind, rather I post this to offer that there is a definite possibility roleplay is happening interactively around your thefts, just not directly with the QB.

[I will never sleep]

Maybe it's changed but a QB character requires so much class/feat/misc specialization that they are useless and unplayable in most other aspects of the game and are comparatively rare as a result. I imagine it gets very boring very fast to play such a character - especially that non-interaction is core to their usual MO.

I don't think this is true, from my own experience of actually playing one. Quarterbreakers can have really impressive skills. Easily softcap appraise, ridiculously high search (both of these mean, you will never want for money if you know your way around the server. hitting mobs is not the fastest way to acquire gold), decently high hide/ms, high spot/listen, brew and craft (heal potions, anyone?), big numbers on disguise, basic casting and such...

The only thing they CANNOT do, is fight orcs and other players. That's far from 'useless', in my opinion. I suppose the argument of city rogue vs other rogues comes to mind. I'm sure a non-combat character is boring for some, but if that is your goal/concept, a quarterbreaker is far more comfortable and even better than a lot of others.

I'm pretty sure that pickpocketing and disarming was prioritized for change because they were much more accessible to level up and play and were thus much more numerous.

Whereas disarm just required two feats to be stealing high end gear on the reg while keeping your build well intact.

Seems like a priority thing to me rather than a deliberate inconsistency.

I can see that, both being in your face and more numerous, but both changes seem to stem from the reasoning that 0 interaction or little interaction theft is not at all fun or engaging, regardless of popularity.

[Deryliss]

"Your theft generates no RP for you but generates so much RP for everyone else" is a really, REALLY strange angle to approach this from. Can you imagine applying this to anything else? "Sure, you got ganked with no RP, but after you died there was SO MUCH RP that stemmed from your inglorious demise, and they had so much fun dancing around your corpse.".

I see a lot of anecdotal examples here of 'here's how I play a quarterbreaker' as if this is a justification for how quarterbreaking works server-wide being fine, but it really is not. Again, to borrow a simile, this is like justifying the Assassin PRC not requiring a token or any DM oversight because 'hey, this is how I do my assassinations, with full respect to the victim and trying to create engaging interactions for them, so clearly its fine for it to be available to everyone else too'.

Being stolen from without any interaction is not engaging or meaningful for the victim, no matter how much fun the other guy has telling his buddies about how he stole it from you. And it is a form of 'pvp' with no counterplay, or even awareness that it is taking place until you happen to notice the missing items.

I was really ambivalent about QB but reading the replies on this thread is slowly turning me against it. Trying to paint this as being a positive and engaging experience is just... inexplicable.