Fall 2021 Balance Adjustment Megathread

[Edens_Fall]

Love the Drow daylight change!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't know what to make of these changes since this is only batch one, and I assume they are part of a bigger rebalancing picture. Not sure a sweeping rebalancing was necessary, but here we are. I just hope we get to the full picture soon. I don't mean to sound like a pushy muckity muck, I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

Perhaps a bit of insight as to what you are trying to do would help folks like me out? I doubt I am the only one who feels like this.

[Curve]

I tend to agree with the above, about commitment and confusion about the overall goal, I guess. Rather than moving towards any long standing balance it feels like the team is playing wack a mole when they perceive issues with builds but at the same time continuing to put live untested changes that will create new build problems that need to be wacked. I will be more specific about the specifics, but I find myself once again worried about beloved characters and how much nerfing and/or changing I can take before I roll them. I hope I don't sound like a prick but, this is an ever present worry that I have.

With that said, there are changes here that I think are very good. The race changes, the coming scythe and other weapon changes, the variance in weapons certain classes can use.

The monk speed change seems unneeded, considering what someone said about about Haste in PvP. But, not a hill I would die on.

The Barbarian changes might allow for some new ultra-builds but I'll have to do some tinkering. If not, they seem fine and dandy.

The CoT change is maybe not even strong enough.

The E-Dodge/Divine Shield change is something that I keep coming back to. It feels like too much, and kind of clunky and unintuitive. I can not think of another aspect of the game where obtaining an ability weakens another ability.

I guess the rabbit is out of the hat on this one, but I really like keeping to the part of NWN character building that is like lego, you pick a piece and put it where you want.

I am interested to see what will come next in these updates, balance changes, whatever to form a more solid opinion.

[I will never sleep]

The E-Dodge/Divine Shield change is something that I keep coming back to. It feels like too much, and kind of clunky and unintuitive. I can not think of another aspect of the game where obtaining an ability weakens another ability.

I guess the rabbit is out of the hat on this one, but I really like keeping to the part of NWN character building that is like lego, you pick a piece and put it where you want.

I can't imagine taking someone from outside Arelith and getting them into the actual build meta at this point. Having to learn so many build related incredibly specific things.

"Check out this edodge div build."
"Oh, that doesn't work. You see, they coded an exception for edodge and div shield specifically."
"............"

[Skibbles]

Perhaps a bit of insight as to what you are trying to do would help folks like me out? I doubt I am the only one who feels like this.

I'm definitely with you here. I started holding my breath reading some of those notes lol.

I know it's probably totally unintentional, and partly just humor on my part, but calling it a 'season' gave me some spooky Diablo 3 vibes.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I don't know what to make of these changes since this is only batch one, and I assume they are part of a bigger rebalancing picture. Not sure a sweeping rebalancing was necessary, but here we are. I just hope we get to the full picture soon. I don't mean to sound like a pushy muckity muck, I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

This is about how I feel. I heard the class I'm playing now is going to be changed dramatically in the future. And I'm wondering, do I stop roleplaying the character until it's out? Do I put my character on hold in case I need to entirely remake? I wanted to pick up some property and get things going, but the uncertainty is really killing that.

[Anomandaris]

I don't know what to make of these changes since this is only batch one, and I assume they are part of a bigger rebalancing picture. Not sure a sweeping rebalancing was necessary, but here we are. I just hope we get to the full picture soon. I don't mean to sound like a pushy muckity muck, I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

This is about how I feel too. I heard the class I'm playing now is going to be changed dramatically in the future. And I'm wondering, do I stop roleplaying the character until it's out? Do I put my character on hold in case I need to entirely remake? I wanted to pick up some property and get things going, but the uncertainty is really killing that.

This. +1

Overall good changes I think. Odd that barb is getting easier access to rages, barb is performing just fine rn.

Also the sprint function just seems odd and unnecessary. Mobility is already a wonky thing with tumble and the ability to take advantage of NWNs awkward combat mechanics. Why more monk like movement absurdity. Ppl have haste, blinding speed, rage ms bonus and monk speed.

There’s already so few ways to get enough “kill pressure” without just absurd ab and crits given the high hp, saves, dr and healpot spam. Seems a solution in search of a problem. Especially given it benefits mundanes more which do not need any more power or ability to get in casters’ faces.

[Echohawk]

CoT got hit hard enough, it's nonviable now. Dunno why folks are saying it needs no legs.
The rest, eh.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

CoT got hit hard enough, it's nonviable now. Dunno why folks are saying it needs no legs.
The rest, eh.

its not completely nonviable, its just very limited now. Instead of being a solid variant to a lot of builds its now just a divine class variant. 6 fighter/4 blackguard/pally/20 cot is going to be pretty strong, especially with ab boosts from charisma that you can't run away from til they wear off. Compared to say a 8/7/15 before the switch both using a falchion its going to crit 15% less and won't have the x3, so it looses the "ooh, ah" factor, but it will have more base damage (divine might) more ac and more saves and still 40% crits (x2). It also might be slightly harder to gear, since it might still want some uni saves (though it can totally go without) and needs three stats on top of that, so those who can generate gold fast will have a clear advantage with this sort of build likely limiting how much its played.

[Kalopsia]

Maybe it's finally time for that bug report to RDI, unless it's intended to divide and 'share' that particularly heavy grind spot. It counts as 'Day' there.

Feedback like this is going to be important in the weeks to come. Regions that erroneously apply sunlight penalties should be listed in a dedicated thread including the full area names of all affected areas. That way our area developers can fix them more easily.

[Arienette]

I have a 20 CoT and while it is obviously worse now, it’s still good. Full BAB class, lots of feats, big saves, and the combo of Divine Shield/Might/Wrath still turns you into a monster for a short time.

[TooManyPotatoes]

I'm a little saddened at the svirf nerf only because it might mean less of them - I agree the change is overdue. I've enjoyed seeing them around Brog. Gnomes in general could use a small inconsequential buff I think just so we see more of them.

Barbarian change also means that the class is opened up to more races (as no longer shooting for 18con), may mean we'll probably see a few less dwarves being created given its no longer the most optimal option.

I'm hoping the cleric changes don't lead to people rolling their clerics. I've been happy to see the Brog temple more active.

Hoping we see some (small) changes to EKD as atm a lot of people seem to make them then roll when they realise the class is a bit too janky.


Outside of my racial wishes/biases..

CoT seems more consistent and less all or nothing which I think is a good thing.

Interested to see how the swash and IB changes turn out.

Think the whip could have been left and the weapons themselves looked at.

Twohand change good.

Divine shield could still be half ac but full duration for those epic dodgers imo.

Sprint is fine but I have enough buttons on my quickbar atm.

I'm no great fan of monks but I'm sure the loss of speed is a sore point. Maybe worth giving them and some other classes bonuses to sprint based on class investment.

[fulminea]

I don't know what to make of these changes since this is only batch one, and I assume they are part of a bigger rebalancing picture. Not sure a sweeping rebalancing was necessary, but here we are. I just hope we get to the full picture soon. I don't mean to sound like a pushy muckity muck, I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

Perhaps a bit of insight as to what you are trying to do would help folks like me out? I doubt I am the only one who feels like this.

This is exactly how i feel.

Why are we not just all required to play Commoners for balance sake.

[Its_a_jelly]

...I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

Perhaps a bit of insight as to what you are trying to do would help folks like me out? I doubt I am the only one who feels like this.

I 100% agree.

What was the point of the monk speed nerf? It has already been nerfed to the point that anyone with a speed potion is just as fast.

What's the point of removing -relevel at the same time you're nerfing various builds and making some unplayable?

[Arienette]

...I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

Perhaps a bit of insight as to what you are trying to do would help folks like me out? I doubt I am the only one who feels like this.

I 100% agree.

What was the point of the monk speed nerf? It has already been nerfed to the point that anyone with a speed potion is just as fast.

What's the point of removing -relevel at the same time you're hosing various builds?

I believe -relevel is still live and will be until all these class changes are ironed out. Then after people have a minute to figure out their new builds it will go away.

Just my understanding of it.

[Tarkus the dog]

Hello everyone.

I'm happy to see so many familiar faces. Thank you for coming to another Arelith build funeral, this time we'll be burying the high WM and Div Assassin. While High WM is lamenting the decision to experiment with whips and finding solace in the fact that it can reincarnate in one of the few remaining cookie cutter builds ( hail scimitar ), a strange noise can be heard from Div Snuggybear's coffin. It seems that Div Assassin might be burying alive, desperately pleading for it's life while knocking on the wood. Perhaps if the duration of the Div Shield and Might should stay the same, but the amount halved, it can escape this terrible fate. An acceptable change to the build in overall, for somebody who has spent months making their now worthless CHA gear.

CoT and Monk, while not dead just yet, are helping each other in an attempt to figure out which build they out to reincarnate into. The Barbarian is looking pretty juicy, says the CoT. I like having DEX, says the Monk, not keeping up to date with the recent game changes.

Speaking of the Barb, he continues to get away with bloody murder with his partner in crime, the Bard. In a weird twist of fate the Barbarian receives a reward for it's bloodshed alongside a mild warning . Uncertain why his AC is being threatened of all the things that allows him to go on merry murder spree, the Barb suggests a more reasonable solution: Adjusting the very weapon that the 2-handed king so powerful in the first place ( and leaving his little cousin, the 1-h damage sponge alone ). Putting a leash on his rage in form of it no longer being an instant action is also a solid option.

In the distance, WoF and Harm continue to taunt each other and it seems that neither of them is losing ( or winning ) the bet on who is getting smacked by the nerf hammer any time soon.

Scythe is hiding behind the Hexblade who has been hiding behind the Barbarian this entire time, wondering why the authorities haven't come for any of them yet.

And last but not least:

MINOTAUR: GRABBED BY THE HORNS (finally).

[Dr. B]

MINOTAUR: GRABBED BY THE HORNS (finally).

The role of Garrbear will be played by Lord Nasher:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3FlC1-HNos&t=93s

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The thing I don't like is that a lot of the changes lately seem to dramatically change the base stat line needed. And that's the one thing rebuilding can't fix. I wish there was some way to do that without needing a remake, remakes are devastating. They remove all property, all saved descriptions and outfits, all items, all gold. The property is the worst, because on top of losing it we're told that we can't try and get it back if we remake. Surely with the housing and property changes, this can be loosened up? Having statline requirements change is a really brutal punishment that I don't feel I can guard against. When I made my healer cleric there weren't even talks about deleting it. And when I asked what classes were safe against changes, cleric was one of the ones mentioned.

I just want to roleplay and get some stories going. But I feel like I should stop and wait, until I know if I need to remake or not.

[ltlukoziuz]

To people lamenting about changes killing their builds - are they? Outside of WM and Divine Champion, all the other nerfs were either relatively minor (notably, cleric/fs nerfs, twohand, monk and races) or relevelable into new builds (div dex nerf). Is losing roughly two AB or two AC or some defensive capability such a tragic loss that suddenly your builds don't work anymore completely? To those who say they just want to explore the stories - do you value mechanical power that much over QoL stuff that you can't enjoy those stories without being the very top end build?

Honestly, love the changes, even if they mean that I have to say goodbye to my Scabbard of Blessing (two round bless, yuss ) and Cyclone (STRanger only having 1 AB difference between dualwield and 2handed instead of 2) and also have a slight quibble with my future character (likely a battle favored soul). Divine Shield/Wrath should honestly get even less dippable, but even this is good direction to have.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I don't quite get the 2hand ab change. We are going out of out way to nerf over the top Ab already with CoT changes so all the Ab dont stack to ridiculous numbers, but i think 2 soft ab was at a good place for 2 handers in general outside of high ab builds (which can be nerfed on their own). You traded 6+ ac for 2 ab and like 7 damage per hit. (more if divine might).

[Waldo52]

The change to divine shield and epic dodge was pretty interesting.

I play a rogue 25/5 blackguard but miraculously the change doesn't effect me at all because I never took the power attack/divine shield line of feats. Avoiding this delicious cheese was something I did for a few reasons: I didn't want to be overly MAD, I didn't like the idea of having to waste a round injecting my AC steroids, I was feat starved and didn't feel it was the best fit in terms of flavor. But charsma to AC also felt kind of mean spirited. I haven't done any very detailed math, but my level 30 character has reached 59-60 AC and I could imagine that with better gear, full wards, divine shield and a starting CHA of 14 I could probably reach 70+ AC.

Just think about it: 70+ AC and epic dodge. I'm not saying rogues are overpowered but that just seems cruel.

Divine rogues still get a great passive bonus with charisma to saves. Divine champion is generally useful for martial characters and blackguard gives poison and a slight bump to sneak attack which isn't too bad. They're still decent options. And the halved AC bonus from DS is still pretty useful in short bursts without feeling disgustingly good. High AC and Epic Dodge is really, really good. I think a weaker divine shield is still a viable option for these characters without being schmucky.

Unless I'm mistaken divine might was unaffected. If you took the 13 strength at level one for divine shield and refuse to use it now, divine might is still there for you. I don't think this was the kind of change that's going to force people to roll their characters.

That's just my opinion, some people are really angry about it and I kind of see where they're coming from but I have a feeling these types of builds are still going to be solid.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

To people lamenting about changes killing their builds - are they? Outside of WM and Divine Champion, all the other nerfs were either relatively minor (notably, cleric/fs nerfs, twohand, monk and races) or relevelable into new builds (div dex nerf). Is losing roughly two AB or two AC or some defensive capability such a tragic loss that suddenly your builds don't work anymore completely? To those who say they just want to explore the stories - do you value mechanical power that much over QoL stuff that you can't enjoy those stories without being the very top end build?

First, I can think of at least one build that went from one of the strongest on the server to a nothing burger because of these changes, and there are probably more.

Second, you can say "its about the story and you should just roll with the changes" but then you gotta ask why we are doing the changes in the first place. This is about PvP balance which really only matters to about 5% of the server about 99% of the time. Most of us want to tell a good story, to your point, and sometimes that involves pvp. In those instances who is more powerful then who doesn't matter so much since its all about story. Unfortunately we have a small minority with a lot of power behind the scenes (because a few of them are devs) who literally obsess over pvp. These changes are for them, not for the rest of us.

Third, most of us likely accept that the last point in the paragraph above is just part of arelith now. I know at least I do, and my complaint really has nothing to do with any specific change but rather that we -still- have the dark cloud of potential character destroying nerfs hanging over the server four months after the campaign to nerf cot began on the 3.0 and spilled over to the main discord. That campaign, while a bit all over the place, was clearly going to hit my character and I stopped playing as much as a result of said discussions. Almost to the point of not playing at all. And now that that hammer has finally dropped, instead of being able to say "well now that that's over with lets move on to the next" I have to worry that my next character might face the same fate, which means once again I'm not that interested in getting invested in to Arelith.

So no, its not that I or anyone who agrees with me likely is valuing mechanical power over anything. At least with me, I know nwn mechanics pretty damn well and I could care less about who or what is more powerful then this or that build. If I were going to design a meta, I would worry less about trying to make everyone equal in one vs one pvp like it feels like these changes are geared toward, and more about how to make certain classes compliment each other in a way that makes powerful pvp forces. And the first thing I would target is corner stealthing, since no one wants to be fighting the gofer from caddy shack for an hour, that's not fun for anyone save maybe the gofer. But I'm not designing a meta, the current devs are, and I am totally willing to try and live with whatever they come up with. I just want to know what the plan is at this point, since with more uknown/undecided changes looming its really hard to get into a new character right now, and knowing what the overall plan is at least would help me color between the lines somewhat while we wait for the next hammer to drop. When lore master was changed so that the 50 or so pvp obsessed folks might actually consider it a thing, it hit me like a ton of bricks when my totally fun but totally gimped 10 level loremaster no longer worked the way I designed it, because I didn't see it coming. My WM/cot however I knew was getting hit a few months ago, and had time to come to terms with it. I want to repeat the comfort of the second if I am going to spend any time at all on Arelith until this is all finished, because the first one really sucked. That's all I am trying to get at here.

[Watchful Glare]

I don't know what to make of these changes since this is only batch one, and I assume they are part of a bigger rebalancing picture. Not sure a sweeping rebalancing was necessary, but here we are. I just hope we get to the full picture soon. I don't mean to sound like a pushy muckity muck, I appreciate the effort put in by you guys, but I find it very hard to commit to the game when everything is in a constant state of limbo and I could loose another character on any given update.

Perhaps a bit of insight as to what you are trying to do would help folks like me out? I doubt I am the only one who feels like this.

This is exactly how i feel.

Why are we not just all required to play Commoners for balance sake.

I admit this has been something I've given some thought to. It hasn't happened that one character I play has gotten completely shot down but the speed of it, the rate of the changes, it reminds me of a MOBA sometimes. Making sure all the characters are 'balanced' (Except balance is a lie and the best you can achieve is perfect imbalance). Changing some numbers here, there, when the balance patch comes. But I'm not sure I see the end goal- Maybe I'm just not good with the mechanics and that's absolutely possibility because I'm not.

But it's kind of feels a cycle, to an outsider's uninformed perspective. Where there's one thing that's strong in the current 'meta'. Then people go play that, people realise it's strong when compared to other things when they fight it, and changes come. But then another thing is strong as a result of the changes, given that the previous one stopped being it, so the same crowd moves on to play that. And it gets changed because of that. And then they move on to play another class/combination. And on it goes.

And there's a different kind of players who play a longer game, making a character and sticking to it perhaps for more than a year that don't do the fast and loose PvP character hopping style, to whom all of this must seem like a hurricane.

I do like most of these changes, and I think many are for the best (Drow sunlight weakness sounds very good). Generally, most changes like that are very easy to get the grasp of, and it's easy to appreciate the effort the devs put into making it a reality and seeing it in game, but for the rest having it spelled out or getting some insight into what's being attempted to achieve would go a long way into making the less meta-savvy people catch up or understand.

[mash]

Balance is a process, not an end goal. But it is a good goal to have. It doesn't need to be perfect, but recognizing and fixing weaknesses in the system is overall a good thing, even if short term upsetting to the ones on the wrong end of the changes.

Suppose you just froze everything at one point in time and promised never to change anything. You would have to live with some character archetypes being labeled "unviable" (justified or not) until the end of time. It would also be impossible to add new classes or items, hexblade and warlock, which by all accounts have been huge successes lately. It can take months until the community has figured out whether a class is truly overtuned, and in a world where PvP plays such a huge narrative role (which it does, for better or worse), it would be deeply unsatisfying if clearly overtuned mechanics would persist forever.

Purely as a suggestion though: I do think a comprehensive statement outlining the future policy for balance changes and rebuilds, posted to the wiki, would certainly help. I feel like some of this was hinted at in some announcements, but they were fairly short and they get lost in time.

On the matter of the changes themselves: I think they are mostly good. CoT isn't dead by any means, with some new appreciated options: Suddenly you can actually build a smiter. Bless reverted to rounds/level and removing war cry/battletide stacking is a good thing. Spellcasters can arguably still get a decent mileage out of it, but it limits the creep of consumables ab. Sprint seems interesting but will have to be watched since it may scale too strongly.

[charmcaster]

Might be an idea to leave a comment as to why certain changes are being made, rather than simply announcing them.