Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
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Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
With the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
There is no counter to this other then -pray which the the cleric can counter by clicking the button a second time. For all intents and purposes it's a instant win against any undead PC in PvP.
It was suggested this could be changed to a vs Will Save when Turn Undead is used againist a PC. That or increasing the Undead PC turn resistance?
Eitherway, some sort of correction would be appreciated. As it stands, if you were to face a high level cleric in battle as an Undead PC you only choice is to go make coffee as you as slain at whatever pace they decide is warranted for the situation.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
RP only starts at 30 if you're a coward.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
32 rounds of fear is not balanced. It is pretty much this: get feared, wait till you load the fugue and then respawn.
When tweaks were made, it was likely that a logic step was missed for checking on if the Undead is a PC. It should likely include a will-save roll.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Looking through description of the original Turn UNdead, level 30 cleric would make a level 30 vampire flee for 35 rounds upon success. That's 3.5 minutes, which is more than enough to murder the vampire.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pmWith the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
What changed?
P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
You could pray it off. You could also use clarity / mind blank (but those can be stripped from you). Even with a pray, all the cleric has to do is hit the button again and you are once again in the same situation.Void wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:40 pmLooking through description of the original Turn UNdead, level 30 cleric would make a level 30 vampire flee for 35 rounds upon success. That's 3.5 minutes, which is more than enough to murder the vampire.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pmWith the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
What changed?
P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
I have no strong opinion on the topic, but the situation sort of reminds me of "Sneak vs Spot Cleric" or "Sneak vs Dragon". Basically if a character invests into sneaking, clerics with spot investment and things with permanent true seeing would be natural enemies. And the usual idea is to never go anywhere close to those kinds of dangers.
I do agree that high duration mental states are annoying. However, there are npc monsters with those.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
But yes the duration is atrocious. Being undead or not, no one should suffer that.
I recall the issue folks had with being knocked down and unable to resist it againist certain builds and that only lasts but a moment. One can imagine the horror of being turned regardless of what you do and then KB without a chance to run, fight, anything. Vampires have plenty of weaknesses, the spam holy grenade is my favorite so far, but at least one can try and run away from that.
Builds and races aside PvP should allow for, at the minimum, each party to have a chance I would think.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Unless something changed recently, you couldn't pray off the turn undead fear. Clarity / Mindblank does nothing to protect against it. You are effectively put in the corner for minutes at a time, just waiting for it to wear off. To top it off, every NPC in the game could identify you as undead by a glance and would absolutely spam turn undead until they ran out of uses. It gets really old, really fast.Spyre wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pmYou could pray it off. You could also use clarity / mind blank (but those can be stripped from you). Even with a pray, all the cleric has to do is hit the button again and you are once again in the same situation.Void wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:40 pmLooking through description of the original Turn UNdead, level 30 cleric would make a level 30 vampire flee for 35 rounds upon success. That's 3.5 minutes, which is more than enough to murder the vampire.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pmWith the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
What changed?
P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?
I think it makes sense for the turn check to be an opposed will save against sentient undead (player characters).
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Ah yes, the holy grenade with reflex save that even when made, does nothing to alleviate the damage of the grenade.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:33 pmI tried a few tests in the PGCC and clarity/mind blank didn't offer any protection. I'm not really sure what Turn Rolls against as the combat log doesn't list it.
But yes the duration is atrocious. Being undead or not, no one should suffer that.
I recall the issue folks had with being knocked down and unable to resist it againist certain builds and that only lasts but a moment. One can imagine the horror of being turned regardless of what you do and then KB without a chance to run, fight, anything. Vampires have plenty of weaknesses, the spam holy grenade is my favorite so far, but at least one can try and run away from that.
Builds and races aside PvP should allow for, at the minimum, each party to have a chance I would think.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
That's a very poor comparison.Void wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pmI have no strong opinion on the topic, but the situation sort of reminds me of "Sneak vs Spot Cleric" or "Sneak vs Dragon". Basically if a character invests into sneaking, clerics with spot investment and things with permanent true seeing would be natural enemies. And the usual idea is to never go anywhere close to those kinds of dangers.
I do agree that high duration mental states are annoying. However, there are npc monsters with those.
There is a big difference between having a hard counter to a skill that would have confered an advantage otherwise, and an ability that instantly causes a character to be at the mercy of its user. BTW, vanilla NWN turning trumps clarity/mind blank and even cannot be removed with restoration effects (-prays confers greater resto...), so unless that has been changed the only counterplay available might be equipping a peridan sword in advance.
Keep in mind that this does not necessarily have to represent instant death - the turner can subject the vampire player to up to 30 RL minutes (!) of monologueing and ~then~ kill their character.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Default implementation - from the original game - doesn't roll against anything. The cleric roll a charisma based check and that check affects the highest level of undead the cleric is allowed to turn. (+-4). The cleric scares undead by existing, pretty much.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:33 pmI tried a few tests in the PGCC and clarity/mind blank didn't offer any protection. I'm not really sure what Turn Rolls against as the combat log doesn't list it.
So, a level 30 cleric rolling 10 on the check will turn level 30 undead. The only mechanical way to defend from that would be to surround him with an undead swarm that has more undead than the cleric can turn, and stay far away, or at least beyond the 20 meter turning bubble. However, a cleric of sun domain can turn 18+cha mod undead at once.
However, wiki lists following thing:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Turn_UndeadThe duration of the forced flight or awe is 5 rounds, plus one round per the turner's level. If the turned target is a Player Character, the duration is 5 rounds, plus one round per 7 turner's applicable levels.
That's reduction compared to original nwn, where it was the same for PC and non-PC undead.
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It is exact same thing, if the sneak is sneak specialist with low combat ability, and sneaking is countered by a single item/scroll/spell. But that's discussion for another place, I think.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Ah yes, the holy grenade with reflex save that even when made, does nothing to alleviate the damage of the grenade.
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The grenade's deals damage and slows movement, the reflex checks is used only (to my knowledge) to counter the slow, not the damage
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Turn check adjusts cleric level for turning purposes by +-4, and is modified by a charisma modifier.
So with +0 cha and no sun domain, the level 30 cleric will have 55% chance of turning a level 30 vampire, and not 100%.
For 100% he'd need +4 charisma mod. Or +3 mod and sun domain.
But the smart idea would likley be to never get close to anything that smells like a cleric.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Ah yes, the holy grenade with reflex save that even when made, does nothing to alleviate the damage of the grenade.
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The grenade's deals damage and slows movement, the reflex checks is used only (to my knowledge) to counter the slow, not the damage
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Correct.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
This is simply a false statement. There's a number of good DEX builds that can be built in multiple ways, but none of them rely solely on stealth.
Still, let's pretend for a moment that what you claim was true (for the sake of the argument) - that item/scroll/spell would have been merely removing the sneaks advantage, while leaving them with a window of opportunity to retreat.
That's NOT the same as instantly stripping the player of any control over their character for an excessively long time period simply because they picked the wrong subrace during character creation.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
+1-XXX- wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 pmThis is simply a false statement. There's a number of good DEX builds that can be built in multiple ways, but none of them rely solely on stealth.
Still, let's pretend for a moment that what you claim was true (for the sake of the argument) - that item/scroll/spell would have been merely removing the sneaks advantage, while leaving them with a window of opportunity to retreat.
That's NOT the same as instantly stripping the player of any control over their character for an excessively long time period simply because they picked the wrong subrace during character creation.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
An alternative is keeping the duration but having it work something like 25% of the time on a 30 vamp. Clicking button is still an action it's not costless.
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Not the right time, and not the right place.
There's ton of npc monsters that spam mind affecting spells, which will render you helpless for excessive amount of time, because you've picked a class without fear immunity or high will saves. The effects often can be prayed off, but the enemy can often just apply it again. Being an undead also brings advantages, namely immunity to crits and sneak attacks, which are hard to achieve otherwise. So that "stripping of control" already happens.
Also, imps are subject to turning as well, though they're less popular and that requires planar turning.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead
Firstly, other crowd control effects have a wide range of available counterplay, this one doesn't.Void wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:29 pmThere's ton of npc monsters that spam mind affecting spells, which will render you helpless for excessive amount of time, because you've picked a class without fear immunity or high will saves. The effects often can be prayed off, but the enemy can often just apply it again. Being an undead also brings advantages, namely immunity to crits and sneak attacks, which are hard to achieve otherwise. So that "stripping of control" already happens.
Also, imps are subject to turning as well, though they're less popular and that requires planar turning.
Secondly, don't mix PvE into this. Monster AI is very limited when compared to actual players. Furthermore, even characters with high saves should be using wards during PvE because rolling a hard 1 is a thing (actually, Arelith's PvE content is often designed to fish for those).
Finally, I really do not believe that
Situation A:
1) Vampire PC wards up and prepares
2) PvP ensues
3) Cleric PC : *turns undead*
4) GG
...can be compared to...
Situation B:
1) PC doesn't ward
2) PC walks into a dungeon stealthed
3) NPC spots PC
4) PC doesn't retreat
5) PC doesn't ward
6) NPC hits PC with a CC effect
7) PC hits -prays
8) PC doesn't retreat
9) PC doesn't ward
10) NPC hits PC with a CC effect
11) GG