I wouldn't view polymorph self or shapechange as viable solutions to anything in general, no.
Especially with regards to PvP.
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If you're looking for a possible ways of handling it, I believe it might be worth to take a look at how Banishment and Dismissal is handled in case of player outsiders.Spyre wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:16 pmAlternatively, you could do the other ideas:
1) Reduce the rounds that a person is feared for if they are a Vampire PC versus what they would if it were an NPC.
2) Add a will-save check for PC's only.
3) Give +4 turn resistance to Vampires based on the handbooks.
Just food for thought.
I'm late to this conversation, but I'm strongly inclined to disagree. The fear duration should be nerfed, but it shouldn't have a will save added. Supposing that a PC Undead gets all the proper racial traits of their subtype, the list of immunities they get include:Spyre wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:37 pm32 rounds of fear is not balanced. It is pretty much this: get feared, wait till you load the fugue and then respawn.
When tweaks were made, it was likely that a logic step was missed for checking on if the Undead is a PC. It should likely include a will-save roll.
Hazard wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:54 amYeah.
Vampires come with a lot of weaknesses that can be taken advantage of in PvP.
But isn't that the point of playing a villain and a monster? To be defeated, and to have it done in a thematic lore friendly way is icing on the cake. I don't know about other people, but this is why I made a vampire in the first place. So that they can be this unstoppable power-house ... until a priest comes along and turns then, or someone heals them or throws a bulb of garlic at their head or pulls a curtain away and blasts them with sunlight, tricks them into running water, etc, etc, etc.
Vampirism is a curse.
I feel like I'm supposed to lose. I'm the bad guy. I'm the vampire.
If I really didn't want to, I'd avoid those weaknesses like a vampire avoids the sun- Oh. Right, yeah.
RP only starts at 30 if you're a coward.
Guide to RP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZK2325DLsE
I'd be down with it not being vanilla fear. I'd also be down with the duration being nerfed. Both of these things are massive boosts in comparison to standard undead, but I understand the players wanting agency. I'd also be down with vampires getting their lore-based +4 turn resistance. (Edit: Personally, when it comes to domination spells, I do wish they lasted longer, so you actually had time to RP around them rather than use them as a kill switch, but I understand creating a system to enforce that would be an unclimbable mountain).RUNGRIND wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:56 amFor those who think this is balanced.
How about we make it so mages get their full duration dominates against you?
Thats basically this but on steroids. Considering they made playing any caster that isn't a cleric basically worthless recently with how insanely good cleric is, you can't also give them a single button that lets them totally screw you over.
Nobody should be able to do that to another person. There is no investment needed other than to be a cletic, the current best caster in the game, and maybe a cha buff spell.
Depending on your build a mage can fugue you in one save or die spell. Timestop is still a thing and has no counterplay either.
Timestop is a thing for basically anyone who cares enough to get it at this point.Void wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:25 amDepending on your build a mage can fugue you in one save or die spell. Timestop is still a thing and has no counterplay either.
As others said, vampires have a huge list of immunities, so it makes sense to have a glaring vulnerability to counteract those.
If you don't like Fear, that could be replaced by Fright + Paralysis or Fright + Daze.
+4 turn resistance mentioned by Aerlyn also sounds reasonable.
Not drawing the attention of X or Y is impossible to actually manage in practice - all it takes is one person who knows that you're a vampire that has a cleric buddy or is willing to shout for one, and an axe to grind. The problem here is that the cleric isn't at an advantage, rather that he has a non-negotiable I-WIN button. That's where it begins and ends, there's no more nuance to it. The vampire gets turned, and then it dies. Riveting.Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:14 amApply this the other way around - if you were the cleric focused on turning, would you want every undead monster on the server to suddenly get an unexplained additional will save on top of the turning check? Isn't it the responsibility of the vampire to avoid drawing the attention of powerful holy priests (iconically known for being able to turn them to dust with enough faith and power) to themselves?
From what I've seen almost every vamp is a human base, so using favored enemy human works and I doubt there's a single Ranger without that.malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:25 pmI would also like favoured enemy undead to work against them, but that's a whole other can of worms of pve vs pvp ranger choices.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
So we're very much on track.
I had at least one. That was before there was a ton of studied enemies.