The Arelith Slaughterhouse

[Dr. B]

This post is meant to offer feedback on the fact that if you play Arelith, your character has probably killed hundreds if not thousands of animals. I'm going to explain why I think this is an issue, then address some common replies that readers may have.

The first issue is that this makes it awkward to roleplay certain characters whose first preference is not to kill animals. For example, recently I have been playing a good-aligned follower of Mielikki. If my character wants to go out into the forest wilderness, she will inevitably leave a gory trail of badgers, bears, wolves, boars, and cats in her wake. This feels ironic: she is typically out there to eliminate threats to the forest like undead, orcs, and ogres. And yet, in practice, her presence is an objectively much greater threat to the creatures of the forest than they are. Indeed, she is a walking abbatoir. By her own lights, given the way animals behave on the server, the most morally good course of action would be to move to a city and never venture into the wilderness again.

The second issue is that being assaulted by endless hordes of bloodthirsty animals feels immersion breaking. Yes, Arelith is a fantasy setting, and it does feel appropriate in certain locations---especially on Skal--that vicious animal attacks will happen. It also makes sense that you would encounter hostile animals in their lairs. It makes sense that some hostile humanoids (like gnolls) might have animal companions (like wolves). But otherwise, animal attacks, especially from black bears and wolves, are incredibly uncommon, even if they are not unheard of. There are some beautifully rendered, highly immersive wilderness areas in the module, especially in the Skull Crags and Arelith Forest. These areas are very well designed by the team, and do a compelling job of capturing the feel of being in real wilderness. But being beset by armies of bears and wolves kind of ruins that feeling.

So I am not saying that animal attacks should never happen, only that they happen quite a lot, to an extent that it creates these two problems.

Here are some points I anticipate readers will make. While at face value they seem like good points, I don't think they remove the basic issues.

1. (Many) animal spawns are not hostile until you approach them.
Reply: True. The team changed this years ago in response to similar feedback. The issue is that almost all of these non-hostile animals spawn alongside hostile enemies like giants, and so on. If you attack these hostile spawns, the animals will also turn hostile, even if you are not near them. So while an effort was made to address the problem, in practice, it is not implemented effectively.

2. Animal empathy is a thing. Use it.
Reply: The issue here is that once you release an animal from animal empathy, it turns hostile again and will attack you, no matter where you are. You can open the radial menu and bring up the release button, walk to the other side of the map, and release it, and it will come running across the map to attack you. So in practice, it doesn't really work.

3. Make a story of it! Maybe there's a curse on the animals of the island! Maybe your character can undertake a personal quest to solve the issue of the hostile animal attacks!
Reply: The problem here is that it's easier to believe that the animals are attacking simply because of the way the spawn system works, just like it's easier to believe that Sidious was alive in The Rise of Skywalker because the writing staff wanted to bring him back. Ultimately, this comes down to game design, and not because of things that are going on in-universe. And while it would be neat for a character to undertake a personal quest to solve the mystery of the hostile animals, there's really nothing your character can do. Not to mention, a character story premised on NPC AI is probably gonna be kind of bleh. No one will care or want to get involved in that story.

Anyway, that's my feedback.

tldr; Arelith feels like an animal bloodbath. It makes sense that there are some hostile animals, but not in the amount we see them. Goodly nature types who would rather not slaughter animals have no other option, which undermines their roleplay. Furthermore, even in a fantasy setting, it feels immersion breaking to be constantly beset by hundreds upon hundreds of hostile animal spawns. Non-hostile animal spawns don't work in practice; animal empathy doesn't work in practice; attempts to rationalize or make a story of it will make for dull, shoehorned storytelling that doesn't lead anywhere and which no one is likely to care about anyway.

Please note that I have not made any suggestions in his post, as per the rules on giving feedback.

[Skibbles]

I thought animals released from empathy *wandered off*?

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Skill_changes

If that's not true (I'm like 80% sure but have no way to test right now) then empathy at the very least prevents animals from going hostile.

With enough points they should all remain passive 100% of the time and avoid these issues. I think it also applies to the party.

To the overall point: yeah its kinda weird to kill so many normal animals like deer and badgers. Would be cool if they had a permanent fear effect that made them run away.

[Paint]

I thought animals released from empathy *wandered off*?

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Skill_changes

If that's not true (I'm like 80% sure but have no way to test right now) then empathy at the very least prevents animals from going hostile.

With enough points they should all remain passive 100% of the time and avoid these issues. I think it also applies to the party.

Having played a Zen Archer Ranger on skal recently because I hate myself, I can confirm that AE can be finnicky sometimes. With some creatures, instead of *wanders off* it'll just loiter there for a bit, then maul you. I don't know why this happens, or why it's inconsistent, but it's definitely a thing.

[Skibbles]

Ah I think it has to wait for a server heartbeat but in that time it might go for a cheap shot.

[Wethrinea]

Animals that were not auto-hostile (bears, wolves, deer, badgers) will wander off when released *as henchmen*.

Auto-hostile animals like variatons of large cats, yeti, etc will not.

[Dr. B]

If I understand the very recent balance update correctly, Animal Empathy was just changed and now they are always treated as henchmen. If that's the case, then that goes a little ways towards addressing this concern.

I thought animals released from empathy *wandered off*?


With enough points they should all remain passive 100% of the time and avoid these issues. I think it also applies to the party.

Not necessarily.

Let's say I have a character with decent animal empathy and come up on a spawn with a bear and an ogre. The bear automatically turns non-hostile. The ogre runs up and engages me, and I attack the ogre. My doing so will cause the bear to turn hostile anyway. I suppose this is because of the way the NWNtoolset's faction system works.

[Imperatrix]

I dislike that I can't walk from A to B on this server without committing several casual genocides and I wish the roads and well-traveled pathways were less populated with hostiles in general.

[McPunchins]

lets be fair, badgers are not "peaceful" animals. Badgers in real life are violent and aggressive. Also a stag would absolutely screw you up if you got close enough to it that it perceived you as a threat it couldn't just move away from. So yeah while I get your concern it is kinda likely that in a world where people can make lightning come out of their hands animals would likely fight if they could not immediately flee to safety.

[Ebonstar]

I thought animals released from empathy *wandered off*?

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Skill_changes

If that's not true (I'm like 80% sure but have no way to test right now) then empathy at the very least prevents animals from going hostile.

With enough points they should all remain passive 100% of the time and avoid these issues. I think it also applies to the party.

To the overall point: yeah its kinda weird to kill so many normal animals like deer and badgers. Would be cool if they had a permanent fear effect that made them run away.

animals wander off if you log out. However if you tell the animal to hold its spot with the radial and then go out of sight range and release it it doesnt follow you.

[Irongron]

It's now many years since I led a change to ai and factions, so that not all 'hostile' animals were immediately do. That many now stay neutral until approached, even while being hostile to their prey was a large step forward.

Are too many creatures butchered on Arelith? Absolutely, but orcs and humans too. This is of course related to the fact we are a combat focused RPG with respawning enemies. Just as my level 3 mage enjoys an unbreakable link to the Plane of Infinite Badgers, so the larger isle will never run out of carnivorous snappers.

But even if over hunting was a thing, unless your character is a genuine lunatic or religious fantastic they would not take issue with the economic exploitation of animals in a setting such as the Forgotten Realms.

Predators such as wolves are a menace to civilisation, herd animals provide the backbone of agriculture and industry. I don't take kindly to characters reacting to my hunting of deer like I was the villain in a Disney movie.

The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

[Dr. B]

I do not feel like your points answer my precise feedback. You seem to be ignoring the distinction between (a) never killing animals at all and (b) not killing thousands upon thousands of animals in the normal course of traveling the surface, which a PC does not have to be a fanatic or lunatic to not want to do. I am not arguing that a PC in the Forgotten Realms should never have to kill any animals at all, so with all due respect, I think you either did not read my post carefully, or read it in an ungenerous spirit.

It's also worth noticing that I pointed out the presence of a bug in the passive animal empathy system. I get that there was some attempt to address it, but it still doesn't quite work.

That said, if there are other things you would rather work on than this, then I won’t press the matter.

[Wethrinea]

My experience with a Ranger who have enough AE to make a zoo of grey renders, is that the system is wonky and at times quite random. Sometimes my PC can walk from Westcliff to Minmir and have a jolly peaceful walk where he pets non hostile bears and wolves left and right. The next day a herd of water bison try to trample him as they sniff him coming a mile away.

[Baseili]

The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

Someone worships Garagos.

[Nitro]

I do not feel like your points answer my precise feedback. You seem to be ignoring the distinction between (a) never killing animals at all and (b) not killing thousands upon thousands of animals in the normal course of traveling the surface, which a PC does not have to be a fanatic or lunatic to not want to do. I am not arguing that a PC in the Forgotten Realms should never have to kill any animals at all, so with all due respect, I think you either did not read my post carefully, or read it in an ungenerous spirit.

It's also worth noticing that I pointed out the presence of a bug in the passive animal empathy system. I get that there was some attempt to address it, but it still doesn't quite work.

That said, if there are other things you would rather work on than this, then I won’t press the matter.

He sort of did though, pointing out that we are playing a game and due to the way a game is played, killing hundreds and thousands of mobs, humanoids or animals is just part of the game. Of course we have to disassociate slightly from it so it makes sense in character, and the same goes for a druid who doesn't want to slaughter animals. You can get away with killing fewer if you're careful and avoid going close to them, but you will have to kill some because that's how the game works, and you can either justify it IC with them being aggressive, rabid or what have you, or handwave it as a game mechanic.

[ReverentBlade]

Ecologically conscious characters should probably take stealth so they can move through the wilderness without disturbing it.