Quarter theft rule change.

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Imperatrix
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Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Imperatrix » Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:55 pm

There has been an increase of quarter breaking, which has led to many cases of excessive theft. Going forward the new ruling surrounding to theft and quarters is the following.
- Each person/group involved in breaking into a home/quarter/guildhouse is only allowed to steal 1 item (Stack) from one (Singular) chest per real life day (24 hours).
- Stealing a fixture in a home does not counts towards the single item stolen but is also limited to one per group, per day.
- A group consist of your entire party that is involved in the quarterbreak. The group together is limited by these rules.
I am confused by this change.

The previous rule on quarter theft was that you could steal one item as a group and fixtures counted for that one item.

Why is the reaction to "excessive theft" to change it so you can now steal two items, an item from a chest AND a fixture?

Am I misunderstanding this?

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-XXX-
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:57 pm

Same here, I thought this already has been a rule.

Drowboy
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Drowboy » Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:58 pm

Can we just bite the bullet and disable quarter theft instead of having to keep up with ever-more-granular rules for the worst mechanic on the server?
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Eyeliner
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:06 pm

To be honest once a day is meaningless. If some quarterbreaking team can bypass highest possible DC locks and traps they can come back every day and make quarter storage of anything completely useless, and believe me that is what is happening now, maybe not daily but they're making the rounds on a regular basis.

You should be able to steal from any character's storage once a RL month to make thieves choose what they take wisely instead of just grabbing anything that's worth more than 500 gp every visit.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:10 pm

The better solution would be more IG tools and skill checks to actually get meaningful information about thieves. There's little to nothing guards and law enforcement can actually do to protect their citizens short of getting extremely lucky and catching someone in the act.

IC consequences for IC acts would go a long way.

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Aradin
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Aradin » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:35 pm

I too am confused about this rule change. I thought the previous rule was a thief/group of thieves can steal 1 item/stack/fixture from a quarter once every 24 RL hours. Are the rules now more generous to thieves, allowing them to take an item/stack AND a fixture every 24 hours or am I misunderstanding this?
ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:10 pm
The better solution would be more IG tools and skill checks to actually get meaningful information about thieves.
Seconded.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:37 pm

The prior case - your quarter breaker could go to 20 quarters and steal ONE fixtuer over all and ONE item from EACH quarter.

NOW: Your quarter Breaker can steal ONE item and ONE fixture. That's it. They can break into 100 quarters, but can only steal ONE item over all. That's ONE item.

'But what if they're with a group?'
Then the GROUP can steal ONE fixture and ONE item per 24 hours. You can take that group to 1 house or to 20. It's just ONE fixture and ONE item.

'Ok but what if my quarter breaker steals one item right? and then 23 hours later they get hired by a group to break into another house and-'
Look - if it's very seperate, then... sure. Ok. We won't worry about the occasional slip up if there's good rp reason. BUT don't take the piss.

'Ok so my quarterbreaker can *snickers evily* Get one person with them and open up the door for them, they can steal something. Then a few hours later we can get -another- person and I can open the door and-'
No. that's taking the piss. Willing to allow a tiny bit of leeway in very occasional sitatiuons. But if you're regularly abusing it, expect a slap.

'What if the quarter breaker is stealing from the same person over and over and over again!'
That breaks the Be Nice rule. Report it.


To be UTTERLY clear again as to the change.

Prior to this, quarter breakers could steal one item PER PLAYER. So they could go to 20 quarters and steal 20 items (an item from each quarter. NOW they may steal ONE item over all. Doesn't matter if they can break into 10 or 20 or 100 houses. Just ONE item (and or fixture) may be stolen.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Aradin
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Aradin » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:45 pm

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!

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Nintendo Entertainment System
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:48 pm

Quarter breaking has always been that odd exception on a server that has otherwise been careful to require roleplayed interaction for all conflict: interactive rp before pvp, in-person notification of exiles, proper notice for evictions, the use of specific signals and/or shouts for initiating ship-based combat, etc etc.

It feels out of place as a result.

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Imperatrix
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Imperatrix » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:51 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:37 pm
The prior case - your quarter breaker could go to 20 quarters and steal ONE fixtuer over all and ONE item from EACH quarter.

NOW: Your quarter Breaker can steal ONE item and ONE fixture. That's it. They can break into 100 quarters, but can only steal ONE item over all. That's ONE item.

'But what if they're with a group?'
Then the GROUP can steal ONE fixture and ONE item per 24 hours. You can take that group to 1 house or to 20. It's just ONE fixture and ONE item.

'Ok but what if my quarter breaker steals one item right? and then 23 hours later they get hired by a group to break into another house and-'
Look - if it's very seperate, then... sure. Ok. We won't worry about the occasional slip up if there's good rp reason. BUT don't take the piss.

'Ok so my quarterbreaker can *snickers evily* Get one person with them and open up the door for them, they can steal something. Then a few hours later we can get -another- person and I can open the door and-'
No. that's taking the piss. Willing to allow a tiny bit of leeway in very occasional sitatiuons. But if you're regularly abusing it, expect a slap.

'What if the quarter breaker is stealing from the same person over and over and over again!'
That breaks the Be Nice rule. Report it.


To be UTTERLY clear again as to the change.

Prior to this, quarter breakers could steal one item PER PLAYER. So they could go to 20 quarters and steal 20 items (an item from each quarter. NOW they may steal ONE item over all. Doesn't matter if they can break into 10 or 20 or 100 houses. Just ONE item (and or fixture) may be stolen.
Thanks for the clarification.

Follow up question: What about fixtures that exist outside quarters?

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:03 pm

The short of it: If you think it's a fixture someone would miss and be upset at loosing, don't steal more than one fixture per 24 hours. You can bash a little more than that- as bashing is repairable. But be reasonable. Again - I'd say don't bash more than two or three fixtures per 24 hours if you think someone would be upset with it. And don't target the same fixture(s) over and over again.
This too shall pass.

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MischeviousMeerkat
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by MischeviousMeerkat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:08 pm

if i have 100 copper bars in my storage and i make 5 stacks of 20 in my storage can they still only take those 20? i hate logging in and losing my mats.
Last edited by MischeviousMeerkat on Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:10 pm

MischeviousMeerkat wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:08 pm
if i have 100 copper bars in my storage and i make 5 stacks of 20 in my storage can they still only take those 20? i hate logging in and losing my mats.
Yep. Only one stack of 20.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

MischeviousMeerkat
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by MischeviousMeerkat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:12 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:10 pm
MischeviousMeerkat wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:08 pm
if i have 100 copper bars in my storage and i make 5 stacks of 20 in my storage can they still only take those 20? i hate logging in and losing my mats.
Yep. Only one stack of 20.
ty.

Duchess Says
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Duchess Says » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:17 pm

Are DMs actively checking this because it seems like a thief could still pretty easily hit different areas once a day and no one would be able to prove its the same one? Are we supposed to report every theft to make sure thieves are staying within their quota? Just wondering how it will be enforced or if it is honor system.

It would also be nice to get a ruling on stealing from someone when their settlement storage window is open as AFAIK that is still considered legal and still happening.

Archnon
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Archnon » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:39 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:17 pm
Are DMs actively checking this because it seems like a thief could still pretty easily hit different areas once a day and no one would be able to prove its the same one? Are we supposed to report every theft to make sure thieves are staying within their quota? Just wondering how it will be enforced or if it is honor system.

It would also be nice to get a ruling on stealing from someone when their settlement storage window is open as AFAIK that is still considered legal and still happening.
A good change but echoing this. It seems like a rough enforcement mechanism as players watching won't necessarily catch and DMs have better things to do.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:49 pm

For the Citzen storage sitatuion - that's going to be discussed soon.

Your other point is valid. I know we'll try and keep an eye on things. Ultimatly it will often however be up to players to report if they think something is hokey.
Recognising this weakness I'd still rather try this way first.

Other options that I can think of include
1) Preventing quarter theft entirely (not something I think Irongron is in favour of)
2) Making it so you can break into only one home per 24 hours (Mechanically possible but I'd really rather not as I am of the firm belief that quarter ENTERING can only make rp, it's the theft issue people that's the problem)
3) Maybe there's a way of enforcing this mechanically? And if any contributor wants to step up to this task I think it would be welcome. But such would also provide it's own issues (e.g. what about faction storage? charity barrels ect?) and it would likely take some time to enable.

It may be that changes in the future (e.g. ways of investigating thefts, other storage options ect) invalidate this and we can change the rule back, or remove it, or harden it, or whatever. But for now I'd very much like to try out this way.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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fulminea
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by fulminea » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:00 pm

I think these rules are a result of players overdoing it and instead of punishing everyone equally I would like to see those who steal too much too frequently be taken aside and have their rpr Re evaluated.

Random additional thoughts:

Locks and traps can be easily upgraded for cheap gold to make them 99% save.

Stealing from characters just starting out who cant be mega-grinders is bad taste in my eyes.

Taking fixtures without good rp reason seems pointless.

The Citizen storage is 100% save.

Duchess Says
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Duchess Says » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:17 pm

fulminea wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:00 pm
Locks and traps can be easily upgraded for cheap gold to make them 99% save.
99% safe against most characters but most characters can't bypass a 127 DC lock and thus aren't going to try because there's no point.

The few dozen (or more?) characters who are built to do this can bypass that 127 DC lock every time they try. There is no protection against them and they are the ones doing almost all of the theft.

You certainly should max out your locks but anyone whose built to quarterbreak won't be stopped by that and they are pretty much the only ones that are going to be doing it in the first place. In the past they could just rob you every day over and over so it's good there is a stronger limit now.

fulminea wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:00 pm
The Citizen storage is 100% save.
No it is not. When you have the drawer open literally anyone can reach in and take something out of it including someone waiting by the bank in stealth to do just that. I use true seeing before opening it each time after losing an irreplaceable item that way.

jomonog
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by jomonog » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:53 pm

Given the general dislike most have to quarterbreaking, my thoughts would be either to remove it entirely or, if it must remain, make it so a quarterbreaker character is by application only. That way DMs can at least theoretically control the number of quarterbreakers, know who they are, and also potentially monitor their RP if needed.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Ork » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:06 am

I think we've gotten to the point, at least as a community, where known quarterbreakers are treated as persona non grata OOC and IC. Quarterbreakers themselves are not doing their own playstyle any favors if this rule change is any indication.

Duchess Says
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:22 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:06 am
I think we've gotten to the point, at least as a community, where known quarterbreakers are treated as persona non grata OOC and IC. Quarterbreakers themselves are not doing their own playstyle any favors if this rule change is any indication.
There may just be a lot more of them around now too. The population has increased and the way to make a quarterbreaker or assemble quarterbreaking teams is common knowledge.

In my opinion the current system depends on them being a rare beast and can't support too many quarterbreakers running around. If they are popular or get more popular something has to change.

Wings of Peace
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Wings of Peace » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:40 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:22 am
Ork wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:06 am
I think we've gotten to the point, at least as a community, where known quarterbreakers are treated as persona non grata OOC and IC. Quarterbreakers themselves are not doing their own playstyle any favors if this rule change is any indication.
There may just be a lot more of them around now too. The population has increased and the way to make a quarterbreaker or assemble quarterbreaking teams is common knowledge.
This seems unlikely or there'd be no need for an updated rule about group theft.

TooManyPotatoes
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:10 am

We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:40 am

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:10 am
We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.
LOL
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