I guess we just have to agree to disagree here. On 95% of the cleric builds I would use, I would rather illusion over trickery. The exception being some sort of stealthy rogue like cleric. That being said, illusion is one of the domains that is missing a bonus ability and a spell interaction, and since the first thing I said was I would like to see them filled out we are in agreement that they need moreParty in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:52 am
The trickery domain gives imp invis and displacement, while also giving benefits towards a lot of skills AND giving access to the Rogue's Cunning spell, as well as camoflage. It's a significantly better choice than illusion, and if I wasn't playing an illusionist I'd be using it. This is why the request to add more things to the illusion domain.
Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
I've yet to manage to build any cleric using the new paths that felt satisfying and flavorful.
Warpriest does give up too much, to the point where it no longer feels like a cleric at all in the Arelith sense. On the flip side, its very -viable-, insofar as the strengths it gets can get capitalized on. Probably the only path I see used frequently, from purely anecdotal evidence, but not one I'm personally interested in building.
All the caster paths share the 'spin up to get free refunds' mechanic, and it just doesn't work. The free refunds are nowhere near reliable enough to get good use out of them, unless you're casting level 3 spell slots. All of them feel overly designed for a pvp scenario of a fast, sweaty encounter where you spin up every buff and nova-round your opponents with everything you've got, but its totally out of place for a more slow paced experience like 99% of pve. All of the caster paths also feel cornered into taking Monk by having all the other defensive paths neutered.
Cloister seems to have a real crisis of identity. At first glance it feels like its trying to be the trueflame/truefrost of the caster paths, but spamming level 3 domain spells with a 70% refund rate means using a terrible spell like a totally unimproved sound lance. Trying to cast anything higher than that isn't going to see a lot of refunds, and by the time to get to the useful spells you're looking at 30-40% refund rate. Then you look again, and it has encouragements to take crafting related domains, but all of those domains are traps that have few or no spells worth putting into a quickbar, unless you want to be throwing Hammer of the Gods I guess. The interaction with auto-silent is also really weird, and only makes sense if, again, you imagine it from a pvp perspective. This is a path that casts Extended Silence on self, spins up, then runs in to touch people with Harm.
Evangelist wins for being creative, but suffers from being very narrow in build space. It gains bonuses with mind affecting and enchantment spells, which pretty much locks you into Mind/Trickery/Illusion domains if you're trying to get any use out of the path benefits. The bardsong interaction is interesting, but you'll never get a decent bardsong level unless you compromise your cleric caster level. To my knowledge, I've yet to meet an evangelist path in-game.
Finally, my old flame, Healer. I don't understand what happened with Healer path, what twists and turns it took, but right now its essentially a Harm-Spammer that does it from behind the safety of Monk AC and extra hitpoints. It's like we took the very reason why Healer was put under the microscope in the first place, and then made that the class. It suffers from the same 'spinning up to cast spells' design conundrum that the other caster paths have, but this one is even more limited. The Positive spells are simply not worth 'spamming' unless you're fighting undead. The Negative spells are what you're spinning up for, but you're not going to do it in pve So this is yet again just another cleric path like Cloistered, that spins up and runs into melee to touch people with Harm. These non-healing Healers are fairly popular.
I don't think the Divine Power / Divine Might spin up for spells works. Its just not satisfying to, as was said earlier, 'cast spells to cast spells'. It only works really in ambush pvp, at which point it might as well just be a passive benefit since you're going into ambush pvp fully warded.
Warpriest does give up too much, to the point where it no longer feels like a cleric at all in the Arelith sense. On the flip side, its very -viable-, insofar as the strengths it gets can get capitalized on. Probably the only path I see used frequently, from purely anecdotal evidence, but not one I'm personally interested in building.
All the caster paths share the 'spin up to get free refunds' mechanic, and it just doesn't work. The free refunds are nowhere near reliable enough to get good use out of them, unless you're casting level 3 spell slots. All of them feel overly designed for a pvp scenario of a fast, sweaty encounter where you spin up every buff and nova-round your opponents with everything you've got, but its totally out of place for a more slow paced experience like 99% of pve. All of the caster paths also feel cornered into taking Monk by having all the other defensive paths neutered.
Cloister seems to have a real crisis of identity. At first glance it feels like its trying to be the trueflame/truefrost of the caster paths, but spamming level 3 domain spells with a 70% refund rate means using a terrible spell like a totally unimproved sound lance. Trying to cast anything higher than that isn't going to see a lot of refunds, and by the time to get to the useful spells you're looking at 30-40% refund rate. Then you look again, and it has encouragements to take crafting related domains, but all of those domains are traps that have few or no spells worth putting into a quickbar, unless you want to be throwing Hammer of the Gods I guess. The interaction with auto-silent is also really weird, and only makes sense if, again, you imagine it from a pvp perspective. This is a path that casts Extended Silence on self, spins up, then runs in to touch people with Harm.
Evangelist wins for being creative, but suffers from being very narrow in build space. It gains bonuses with mind affecting and enchantment spells, which pretty much locks you into Mind/Trickery/Illusion domains if you're trying to get any use out of the path benefits. The bardsong interaction is interesting, but you'll never get a decent bardsong level unless you compromise your cleric caster level. To my knowledge, I've yet to meet an evangelist path in-game.
Finally, my old flame, Healer. I don't understand what happened with Healer path, what twists and turns it took, but right now its essentially a Harm-Spammer that does it from behind the safety of Monk AC and extra hitpoints. It's like we took the very reason why Healer was put under the microscope in the first place, and then made that the class. It suffers from the same 'spinning up to cast spells' design conundrum that the other caster paths have, but this one is even more limited. The Positive spells are simply not worth 'spamming' unless you're fighting undead. The Negative spells are what you're spinning up for, but you're not going to do it in pve So this is yet again just another cleric path like Cloistered, that spins up and runs into melee to touch people with Harm. These non-healing Healers are fairly popular.
I don't think the Divine Power / Divine Might spin up for spells works. Its just not satisfying to, as was said earlier, 'cast spells to cast spells'. It only works really in ambush pvp, at which point it might as well just be a passive benefit since you're going into ambush pvp fully warded.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
While there are a few sticking points here and there, I overall really like the new cleric domains. The saddest domain is probably Travel, due to how many repeat spells it gets in its spell list, but I see the issue - there really aren't a lot of 'travel' spells in the list other than Mass Haste, and noone wants to see clerics with Mass Haste.
I think all I'd do now is add a few more domain powers or spell interactions to the less popular or versatile domains. The spell lists feel largely fine, and the only real design space left is so to start giving very powerful, high circle spells in mid slots, which would be a big stinking can of worms.
I think all I'd do now is add a few more domain powers or spell interactions to the less popular or versatile domains. The spell lists feel largely fine, and the only real design space left is so to start giving very powerful, high circle spells in mid slots, which would be a big stinking can of worms.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
Distant Relation covered very well how I feel about the new cleric paths as well.
One thing that I feel would be a really nice addition would be thematic level 28 abilities if you go pure-cleric. Something that provides an alternative to the level 3 monk dip. The druid and bard class IMO are both good examples of classes that encourage pure-builds as a viable choice that packs a few goodies.
Regarding the Healer specifically, perhaps offering them the choice at certain levels to be a harm-spammer vs. an actual healer. Something like a unique feat at level X where as they can choose between:
- "the evil wicked hag healer who lives at the edge of a swamp because she is creepy" feat. As is, being very much a harm spammer. Perhaps they also increase the DCs of poisons they brew! If they go full cleric (28+) could be a +5 to the brewed poison DCs, and get the ability to lace bandages with slow-working poison. >.>
- "the goodly do-no-harm healer" feat. Inflict wounds and harm only do 25% damage. They get +20 soft skill bonus to using heal kits. They can examine characters if they have been poisoned by the unique poison system, the manner of poison, or if they have been afflicted by lycantrophy. If they use heal kits on whoever shields them in combat or on their summons, the roll is an automatic 20.
One thing that I feel would be a really nice addition would be thematic level 28 abilities if you go pure-cleric. Something that provides an alternative to the level 3 monk dip. The druid and bard class IMO are both good examples of classes that encourage pure-builds as a viable choice that packs a few goodies.
Regarding the Healer specifically, perhaps offering them the choice at certain levels to be a harm-spammer vs. an actual healer. Something like a unique feat at level X where as they can choose between:
- "the evil wicked hag healer who lives at the edge of a swamp because she is creepy" feat. As is, being very much a harm spammer. Perhaps they also increase the DCs of poisons they brew! If they go full cleric (28+) could be a +5 to the brewed poison DCs, and get the ability to lace bandages with slow-working poison. >.>
- "the goodly do-no-harm healer" feat. Inflict wounds and harm only do 25% damage. They get +20 soft skill bonus to using heal kits. They can examine characters if they have been poisoned by the unique poison system, the manner of poison, or if they have been afflicted by lycantrophy. If they use heal kits on whoever shields them in combat or on their summons, the roll is an automatic 20.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
That's not true, I do, as a level 9 unextendable spell.Distant Relation wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:29 amthere really aren't a lot of 'travel' spells in the list other than Mass Haste, and noone wants to see clerics with Mass Haste.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
The unextended lasts 2.7 mins to 3 mins. That's a long time for summons to enjoy.ElvenEdibles wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:14 pmThat's not true, I do, as a level 9 unextendable spell.Distant Relation wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:29 amthere really aren't a lot of 'travel' spells in the list other than Mass Haste, and noone wants to see clerics with Mass Haste.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
So? It's not like it's freeGood Character wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:08 pmThe unextended lasts 2.7 mins to 3 mins. That's a long time for summons to enjoy.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
"Not free" in what sense? Like every other spell that has to use up a spell slot?ElvenEdibles wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:33 pmSo? It's not like it's freeGood Character wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:08 pmThe unextended lasts 2.7 mins to 3 mins. That's a long time for summons to enjoy.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
You seem to be implying that that isn't a big deal, but it is. Level 9 slots are competitive for both battleclerics and caster clerics.Good Character wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:44 pm"Not free" in what sense? Like every other spell that has to use up a spell slot?
There is also the Domain trade-off. From a mechanical standpoint, now that Haste is part of the cleric spellbook, Travel with an unextendable mass haste is difficult to weigh against domains like Good which gives awesome spellbook control without needing to take Silent Spell, War which gives Aura of Vitality (way better for your summons btw), Moon which gives Mage Armor, Premonition and Lesser Mind Blank, etc
tl;dr even if it were given an unextendable mass haste, there will still be more useful domain picks for pretty much every build I can think of.
Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
I would like to see Path of the Cloistered get an additional domain.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
I like that idea. That would fit the theme of being a caster path, giving it more spell ability.
Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
Snuggle a Bugbear-yeah that would be awesome.I would like to see Path of the Cloistered get an additional domain
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
Before the idea gets echoed further, NWN's hardcoded nature of domains make it impossible to obtain more than or less than 2 domains for clerics.
However, it's possible to give the domain feat to pretend to have the 3rd domain. Mechanically this means no new domain spell spells, but any domain-specific interaction with spells will still function.
For cloistered, this could also mean spontaneous casting of the third domain's low-level spells.
This could potentially be introduced as a "minor bonus domain" but further testing will be required.
However, it's possible to give the domain feat to pretend to have the 3rd domain. Mechanically this means no new domain spell spells, but any domain-specific interaction with spells will still function.
For cloistered, this could also mean spontaneous casting of the third domain's low-level spells.
This could potentially be introduced as a "minor bonus domain" but further testing will be required.
Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
Ah, that's too bad.Kenji wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:55 amBefore the idea gets echoed further, NWN's hardcoded nature of domains make it impossible to obtain more than or less than 2 domains for clerics.
However, it's possible to give the domain feat to pretend to have the 3rd domain. Mechanically this means no new domain spell spells, but any domain-specific interaction with spells will still function.
For cloistered, this could also mean spontaneous casting of the third domain's low-level spells.
This could potentially be introduced as a "minor bonus domain" but further testing will be required.
I'm not sure how the "minor domain" would work, but if it's an option, I think it would be worth looking into.
The idea behind the suggestion / feedback, was to give PoTC some more boons to make it an attractive choice - and given a life of study and what not, extra secret knowledge in the form of extra domain spells and such would have been a nice fit for the concept.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
Most domains don't really offer too many benefits, the big thing domains get are the spells. How would spontaneous casting of a 3rd domain's spells work if those spells aren't part of a cleric's spellbook? Or would it only apply to cleric spells, which really limits the domains it would be useful for?
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
What I would love - and I know this is asking a lot - is for the new spontaneous spells to work similar to how the traditional NWN spontaneous spells work. Meaning you just drag them from the Cleric spell list to the hotbar and they automatically become cast as (S) spontaneous spells, similar to how Cure Wounds spells already work.
It would be a quality of life improvement over using the Radial menu, which is already clogged up with so many new things. But, I suspect there was a good reason new spontaneous spells weren't implemented that way in the first place.
It would be a quality of life improvement over using the Radial menu, which is already clogged up with so many new things. But, I suspect there was a good reason new spontaneous spells weren't implemented that way in the first place.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
You can put radial menu spells on your hot bar by right clicking your hot bar and navigating the radial menu.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
Well, as someone whom is playing a level 30 Healer Path Cleric, I have to say I just feel mechanically weaker overall, without very much benefits or anything that remotely feels thematic to being a Healer Path Cleric.
I've been put to the point where I cannot defend myself, outside of greater sanctuary and throwing summons or party members in the way of myself and others, and most of the healer path clerics I talk to.. well.. they aren't really healers? Or don't really feel like they remotely fit a theme of being a healer. (Mind you I'm in the Underdark, so that might factor in a bit)
Overall, I do not really feel like I do anything special, that really fills in that niche of "I am -the- healer" that other paths cannot do themselves. Respite is kinda nifty, but it's usefulness is extremely situational, and there's really no "Capstone" anymore for reaching the peak of being a cleric.
I haven't really had much experience with the other paths, as I don't have 4 different clerics I just have sitting around, just the one, but I really overall do not feel like I am better at healing than anyone other path, I don't feel like I am a tide turner. I just feel like I'm basically just a warm body once my buffs and summons come out, and I toss around heals if someone gets injured.. which any of the paths can do.
Also the Divine Favor and Divine Power flavor just... doesn't seem to work? Like, assuming I even remember to "Wind up" to start healing people, I basically never feel like I get much return on the refund, and the divine favor bonuses are basically invisible to the point I really do not understand why I bother casting it.
Only real positive feedback I have is that I enjoy the new spontaneous casting.. though I honestly do not even remember if that was part of the old healer path or if it was actually new.
I've been put to the point where I cannot defend myself, outside of greater sanctuary and throwing summons or party members in the way of myself and others, and most of the healer path clerics I talk to.. well.. they aren't really healers? Or don't really feel like they remotely fit a theme of being a healer. (Mind you I'm in the Underdark, so that might factor in a bit)
Overall, I do not really feel like I do anything special, that really fills in that niche of "I am -the- healer" that other paths cannot do themselves. Respite is kinda nifty, but it's usefulness is extremely situational, and there's really no "Capstone" anymore for reaching the peak of being a cleric.
I haven't really had much experience with the other paths, as I don't have 4 different clerics I just have sitting around, just the one, but I really overall do not feel like I am better at healing than anyone other path, I don't feel like I am a tide turner. I just feel like I'm basically just a warm body once my buffs and summons come out, and I toss around heals if someone gets injured.. which any of the paths can do.
Also the Divine Favor and Divine Power flavor just... doesn't seem to work? Like, assuming I even remember to "Wind up" to start healing people, I basically never feel like I get much return on the refund, and the divine favor bonuses are basically invisible to the point I really do not understand why I bother casting it.
Only real positive feedback I have is that I enjoy the new spontaneous casting.. though I honestly do not even remember if that was part of the old healer path or if it was actually new.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
Level 27 Healer here. Even with the Healing domain, I very much feel the same way as you. It's as if I'm expected to multi-class into something else for some more oomph, but really I just want this character to be a full-fledged Healer.Kalthariam wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:29 amWell, as someone whom is playing a level 30 Healer Path Cleric, I have to say I just feel mechanically weaker overall, without very much benefits or anything that remotely feels thematic to being a Healer Path Cleric.
I've been put to the point where I cannot defend myself, outside of greater sanctuary and throwing summons or party members in the way of myself and others, and most of the healer path clerics I talk to.. well.. they aren't really healers? Or don't really feel like they remotely fit a theme of being a healer. (Mind you I'm in the Underdark, so that might factor in a bit)
Overall, I do not really feel like I do anything special, that really fills in that niche of "I am -the- healer" that other paths cannot do themselves. Respite is kinda nifty, but it's usefulness is extremely situational, and there's really no "Capstone" anymore for reaching the peak of being a cleric.
I haven't really had much experience with the other paths, as I don't have 4 different clerics I just have sitting around, just the one, but I really overall do not feel like I am better at healing than anyone other path, I don't feel like I am a tide turner. I just feel like I'm basically just a warm body once my buffs and summons come out, and I toss around heals if someone gets injured.. which any of the paths can do.
Also the Divine Favor and Divine Power flavor just... doesn't seem to work? Like, assuming I even remember to "Wind up" to start healing people, I basically never feel like I get much return on the refund, and the divine favor bonuses are basically invisible to the point I really do not understand why I bother casting it.
Only real positive feedback I have is that I enjoy the new spontaneous casting.. though I honestly do not even remember if that was part of the old healer path or if it was actually new.
The only time I use Divine Power is in boss fights, where I'll be spamming things like Healing Circle. It's okay, at least it works there. But outside of that, it doesn't really feel that great. The raise of Constitution to 18 feels redundant when we already have gear and Bear's Endurance buffing us way past 18.
I never use Divine Favor. Tried it once and thought it was lack-luster. I'm not even sure if it works on spontaneously cast Cure Wounds spell. An Extended Divine Favor lasts 2 turns (so 2 minutes), which is pretty weak, but the fact that an Extended Divine Favor takes up a 2nd level spell slot is its biggest turn-off, as Clerics have *so* many spells competing for 2nd level spell slots.
I mostly enjoy many of the Domain changes. Not so much the Healer path change. I wish pure healers (lvl 28 and up) would get some sort of power buff to at least their Overhealing.
I still miss the days when Divine Protection was a thing, but that's wishful day-dreaming.
Last edited by MissEvelyn on Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
Thank you all for your feedback; they have been insightful.
The following changes are what I gathered to be a good start in addressing most of those concerns. Some of these will be PGCC-only for a duration to test things out and should the experience appear to be positive without it being overpowered, it may hit live.
Warpriest:
Able to summon creatures up to VIII, but epic summons and 9th level summons (Swarm, IX, Gate, etc) are still disabled.
Healers:
They no longer have negative spell synergies, also negative and death spells have their damage/DC reduced by half.
Overheal further increased to a max of 90hp if the healer has the Healing or Suffering domain, 60hp without either.
Evangelist, Cloistered, & Healer:
Divine Power lasts 1 turn / CL (Evangelist AB increase is still 1 round / CL)
Divine Favor lasts 1 hour
New Path -
Defiler:
Takes over current "Negative" Healer spell synergies, healing spells healing reduced by half.
Copies most of the other stuff from Healer, details to be hammered out.
The following changes are what I gathered to be a good start in addressing most of those concerns. Some of these will be PGCC-only for a duration to test things out and should the experience appear to be positive without it being overpowered, it may hit live.
Warpriest:
Able to summon creatures up to VIII, but epic summons and 9th level summons (Swarm, IX, Gate, etc) are still disabled.
Healers:
They no longer have negative spell synergies, also negative and death spells have their damage/DC reduced by half.
Overheal further increased to a max of 90hp if the healer has the Healing or Suffering domain, 60hp without either.
Evangelist, Cloistered, & Healer:
Divine Power lasts 1 turn / CL (Evangelist AB increase is still 1 round / CL)
Divine Favor lasts 1 hour
New Path -
Defiler:
Takes over current "Negative" Healer spell synergies, healing spells healing reduced by half.
Copies most of the other stuff from Healer, details to be hammered out.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
This would require further testing on the developer's end, but if someone has done this on another server and it works, let me know now!Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:40 pmMost domains don't really offer too many benefits, the big thing domains get are the spells. How would spontaneous casting of a 3rd domain's spells work if those spells aren't part of a cleric's spellbook? Or would it only apply to cleric spells, which really limits the domains it would be useful for?
Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul
Suggestion for the Ooze domain, replace poison with stinking cloud since clerics already get poison and stinking cloud would be a good addition.
Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
Nice, this does make the refunds perks a lot more attractive.
A small question, is Evangelist's "+2 DC on Enchantment and Mind-Affecting spells" intended to work for all mind-affecting spells or only enchantment? At the moment it is only enchantment, and I wasn't sure if this is a feature of bug. I think the same is true for spell refresh, but I haven't tested.
Last edited by Quidix on Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback
The idea for divine power is very interesting, I'd like to play around with that. It makes the path features a lot easier to use. I'm not sure I'd use divine favor, even if it lasted an hour. Spell penetration isn't really that interesting, there's more useful things I could do with that spell slot.