What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

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What is your sentiment on Arelith's current leveling speed and rate of xp gain?

It is too fast
144
37%
It is fine
184
48%
It is too slow
57
15%
 
Total votes: 385

Xerah
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Xerah » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:32 am

Frankly, I (we?) don’t play D&D to play commoners.

Great that some people are into that and awesome that it’s an option for those people, but it’s the last thing I imagine wanting to do when I sit down to make a D&D character.
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:59 am

I have played a commoner and enjoyed it, and I want to do so again. But I do actually enjoy playing an adventurer/doing mad stuff. I just am not sure that I want all the adventure/mad stuff/feeling of growth to be over so quickly, is all?
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Join Us. Thrive. » Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:13 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:59 am
I have played a commoner and enjoyed it, and I want to do so again. But I do actually enjoy playing an adventurer/doing mad stuff. I just am not sure that I want all the adventure/mad stuff/feeling of growth to be over so quickly, is all?
I can understand that sentiment.

I've probably made more commoners in my time than is healthy if only because I enjoy what they can do that's so different from the norm I suppose.

I am concerned at what doing mad stuff entails though, I think it might be better not to ask :D

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Bees in Space » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:02 pm

I think people are forgetting about freelancer writs and -adventure. If you want to level slower, options exist.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Amateur Hour » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 pm

Bees in Space wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:02 pm
I think people are forgetting about freelancer writs and -adventure. If you want to level slower, options exist.
In fairness, the older posts on this thread predate the existence of freelancer writs.

But this said, I don't quite get the whole anticipation for the next mechanical cookie bit, particularly when so much happens where you get excluded right off the bat if you aren't fully-leveled and fully-geared and fully-established within a faction.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Whosdis » Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:42 pm

It seems as though levelling is already being tampered with. I recieved 1k XP for doing the Merchant's Coast writ, which in spite of being pretty easy, is an early teens writ.
That's essentially a waste of a writ slot.
Hunt the Huntsman. Multilayered zone with tough mobs and a tough boss fight, I was chewing through plenty of healing equipment to get through. 5k XP. And this was once 10k?
Considering there is STILL a dearth of content in the mid-levels and my work schedule differs from my friends (which means we have a hard time doing writs together to begin with), these are pretty baffling and unwarranted changes, it feels like the majority of the communtiy is being strangled by just 1/3rd of forum users.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Xerah » Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:53 pm

Consider this a warning to get off the topic of this "Forum User Cabal" who is dictating EXP gains. Any further mentions of this is unhelpful and not based on anything in reality.
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Irongron » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:07 pm

I should add here that given the approximately 12 new dungeons I've added in recent weeks there is no great difference in overall available writ XP (and significantly more in both the Underdark and Skal)

As I add more dungeons, for the most part, the individual rewards for dungeons may well drop further.

Over the last few years I have vastly increased the overall available XP to players; per tick XP is way higher, we've added XP for traps, added ever more writs, sailing XP, and are even looking at a means to award XP for climbing. Anyone that has played here any length of time will see that XP rewards have, overall, very much gone in one direction. I simply don't have a great deal of patience for posts saying I'm ignoring players, or for PMs giving me lessons on how to design and run Arelith, and I never have.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Whosdis » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:28 pm

Adding more writs and dungeons is nice and well, but I do not quite understand the necessity to scale back the XP of other avenues accordingly. Having options increases replayability, and to be quite frank, if I have to do more writs to reach a level where I can do content with people, that's more time I'm spending levelling and less time I'm spending roleplaying, not to mention that I do not have a huge pool of friends to breeze through content with, I'm on my own levelling: Skaljard was the exception until it was very recently put down.

I'm questioning the overall reduction in speed when there are avenues such as -adventure as well as freelancer writs that allow one to level more slowly. I'm looking to roleplay and create stories with people, not spending more time killing NPC's, that's personally not what I play Arelith for. Again I ask: How is my roleplay at all complimented by having to grind and do things other than, well, roleplay, more?

As someone who has been presently levelling and has levelled several characters in the past, including the dry spot where you're stuck trying to do the Hellish Deep Wells quest, I would argue some levelling spots are overtuned rather than the opposite, to scale them down as so.

I see these several people clamoring for slower levelling, and yet I seldom see characters remain hovering around the lower levels. To be quite, it just feels as though these very same people are opting out of the slower levelling options. Why is that? I do not dictate them to level faster even though I preference jumping into roleplay, myself.

And furthermore I would like to clarify that I am not one of those persons messaging IronGun, I don't even think I've used the private message page on the forums. These are but my own thoughts as an individual playing the server.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:46 pm

Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:28 pm
Adding more writs and dungeons is nice and well, but I do not quite understand the necessity to scale back the XP of other avenues accordingly. Having options increases replayability, and to be quite frank, if I have to do more writs to reach a level where I can do content with people, that's more time I'm spending levelling and less time I'm spending roleplaying, not to mention that I do not have a huge pool of friends to breeze through content with, I'm on my own levelling: Skaljard was the exception until it was very recently put down.

I'm questioning the overall reduction in speed when there are avenues such as -adventure as well as freelancer writs that allow one to level more slowly. I'm looking to roleplay and create stories with people, not spending more time killing NPC's, that's personally not what I play Arelith for. Again I ask: How is my roleplay at all complimented by having to grind and do things other than, well, roleplay, more?
This very much sounds like another way of saying, "role-play starts at 30".

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you do not need to reach level 30 to start roleplaying. You can roleplay from the start, from level 2. You don't need to be mechanically powerful when you start roleplaying.


To Irongron, thank you for giving us more dungeons to explore and engage in. I feel like the adjustments were necessary, and very helpful in letting us get to know our characters before they explode in power.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Irongron » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:59 pm

It's worth also noting that it's not really that long since, with Yellowcateye, I first devised writs. In the history of Arelith this is still quite a new thing, and before? Even giving a player a bonus of 1000xp for clearing a single area would have been considered absurdly generous.

That I see players seriously claiming that a 5000xp reward for clearing a single dungeon complex is unreasonably low, (in Skal Fell the total writ XP available is still something like 25k..) is still shocking to me. I also still regularly hear from veteran players who feel that the writ system, itself, was a mistake and should be reverted.

Obviously I'm not going to do that, but I can say that even before we offered such astronomical rewards Arelith was still a very popular server. The magic sauce, if there is one, is not in the levelling speed.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by hi chat » Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:53 pm

As someone who picked up Arelith fairly recently, I think that some of the changes to writs XP have been very heavy-handed. The limited amount of both regular XP and adventuring XP given from the writs after these recent nerfs makes a lot of writs fairly unattractive - and for someone who hasn't ran through every dungeon in the game, there becomes a genuine risk of chewing off a writ far too difficult, burning a huge amount of supplies only for a small amount of XP.

I don't really enjoy circlegrinding but with these XP changes, it feels like that circlegrinding is going to become far more prevalent which I feel like will put off players far more than "levelling too quickly" - an argument I've never understood. As someone who finds PVE tedious and annoying, the last thing I really want to do is run yet more dungeons so I can catch up in level with everyone else. If it takes a day a level, that's still around a month of gameplay every day; which is still quite a lot of playtime, really. I thought writs were fine and believe that the writ payouts should probably be reversed - or alternatively, the xp removed from surface writs is converted to adventuring XP to encourage people who are still levelling to roleplay more.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Irongron » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:22 pm

hi chat wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:53 pm
As someone who finds PVE tedious and annoying...
I find this interesting, as this statement definitely seems to confirm my suspicion that for some players, keen to level (and to be fair, roleplay) the whole PVE thing is purely an unwelcome obstacle to be overcome on that road.

However NWN is a PVE game, and Arelith is, very much so. Dungeon crawling is very much at the heart of the experience here, and if a player truly doesn't even enjoy it? I'm really not sure Arelith is the right environment for them. After all, I don't spend years of my life designing content purely to frustrate players.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by hi chat » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:29 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:22 pm
hi chat wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:53 pm
As someone who finds PVE tedious and annoying...
I find this interesting, as this statement definitely seems to confirm my suspicion that for some players, keen to level (and to be fair, roleplay) the whole PVE thing is purely an unwelcome obstacle to be overcome on that road.

However NWN is a PVE game, and Arelith is, very much so. Dungeon crawling is very much at the heart of the experience here, and if a player truly doesn't even enjoy it? I'm really not sure Arelith is the right environment for them. After all, I don't spend years of my life designing content purely to frustrate players.
There's absolutely times when PvE is fun - most particularly in a party with other people such as friends or strangers. However, for every time there's a fun experience in a dungeon with people; there's a lot of experiences where players have to circlegrind a dungeon by themselves which isn't very fun. I fear that the writ nerfs are going to increase the number of people who circlegrind rather than do writs in groups.

I think that the nerf to adventuring XP has discourged people from levelling alongside people they don't know OOCly and instead just do their three writs and disconnect, piling up adventuring XP. In turn, a loss of still-levelling people roleplaying makes it harder to find people to "partner with". Perhaps this is an issue with my timezone meaning I usually have to writs alone, but I think that higher adventuring XP payouts generated more RP.

My other issue is when veteran players speak of levelling from 5-26 in about 5 days - these people have very good understanding of the mechanics, of the dungeon layouts and know what to expect. For people who are less experienced it's much harder for them to level up to epics because a lot of new players are not going to think "I have to circlegrind Forest of Despair" or something, because they think they'll just burn through supplies.

My belief is that some of the XP removed from surface writs should instead be converted to adventuring XP - it slows down the levelling process but should encourage more roleplay at sub-level 30.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by garrbear758 » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:34 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:22 pm
hi chat wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:53 pm
As someone who finds PVE tedious and annoying...
I find this interesting, as this statement definitely seems to confirm my suspicion that for some players, keen to level (and to be fair, roleplay) the whole PVE thing is purely an unwelcome obstacle to be overcome on that road.

However NWN is a PVE game, and Arelith is, very much so. Dungeon crawling is very much at the heart of the experience here, and if a player truly doesn't even enjoy it? I'm really not sure Arelith is the right environment for them. After all, I don't spend years of my life designing content purely to frustrate players.
PVE is fun. Circle grinding is not. Lowering writ rewards is going to make circle grinding more necessary and is in my opinion counterproductive to a good pve experience. Instead, incentivize pve with things like unique treasures in harder locations, such as how the sailing treasure chests have cool unique stuff that can't be obtained elsewhere.
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Whosdis
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Whosdis » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:42 pm

That is an interesting point(this is to IronGun since someone posted before me as of writing this.) Naturally, I think there's a method in moderation: On my first to-30 character, I ran into the Goblin Town on accident, but enjoyed the experience. I cleared it out, defeated the creatures, looked through all that loot, it was a fun experience, and level-appropriate enough that I got decent experience through the ordeal. Those are cool moments, and I think they're understated, but they're not necessarily infinite.
The writs dont necessarily encourage RP but completion of their objectives, else I would like to have characters exploring the isle more passively and getting experience through roleplay and exploration, but that would not be feasible without subsidy experience.
Ultimately there's a sort of consolation between both sides to be done. I like the more social aspect but theres only so much one can do at low levels(especially as I'm trying to shore up an eventually antagonistic character), and hence my enjoyment of the content hinges on if I'm stuck solo or not. I dont generally like doing solo PVE but at high levels you'll get a sense of enjoyment out of it, like good loot. I've somehow gotten 3 high end crafting materials on my currently levelling character so far, and hoarding them is admittedly one of the nice parts of being solo.
Ultimately, some people are going to see these reductions as encouraging of grinding and other methods of XP subsidy, even though the people who support these slowdowns desire them more in relation to character growth and development. I do think, however, that when so much of the community and content is centered on the high epic levels, that it's not necessarily incentivizing to be stuck in the lower level content.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:20 am

I love the idea of unique sources of adventuring experience points. We already have it with portals, crafted items, creature types, and areas discovered. Unique locations visited for the first time give a ton of adventuring experience points, like that one [redacted] in that [redacted] area! (It's FOIG, so enjoy exploring 😊)

We have something similar with traps. I'd love to see extra adventuring experience awarded to first time climb spots, first lock picking in an area (with reasonable limits), maybe even gain adventuring experience for the first time you sell loot to a new merchant? As a way to reward the adventurer who gives back to their community.

One of my favorite things to do when there is downtime and no one is around is to talk to the NPCs and ask them for advice and what they know. Lots of amazing lore is hidden in actual plain sight. Lady Kasha in Cordor was just telling me how the gods used to operate with power and presence (the old piety system).
What if asking questions for the first time gave the player character a small amount of adventuring experience points? That would be something to consider as well.

But all in all, I believe the nerfs that have taken place lately are healthier for the community, especially for the people who are heavier on the roleplay. There's nothing worse than logging off for a week and coming back to find half of the people you leveled with are gone, and the other half are slaying epic devils and ancient dragons, when only 3 in game weeks ago they were prodding rats in the sewers.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by hi chat » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:21 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:20 am
But all in all, I believe the nerfs that have taken place lately are healthier for the community, especially for the people who are heavier on the roleplay. There's nothing worse than logging off for a week and coming back to find half of the people you leveled with are gone, and the other half are slaying epic devils and ancient dragons, when only 3 in game weeks ago they were prodding rats in the sewers.
I'd argue the entire opposite. With how much content is geared towards the late game (end game equipment, end-game dungeons, et factions that only want high-level and geared characters), slowing down levelling only makes it harder for new people to break through and catch up to their high-levelled friends. Increasing the time it takes to "catch up" isn't very fun. Characters aren't going to be around forever and I'd rather not spend two months levelling to catch up to them - only for them to roll that character whilst I was still trying to level.

PvE is fun. Solo-levelling isn't. Circle-grinding isn't. Slowing down total writ payout isn't very conductive to a server where all of the established characters and arguably, some of the most interesting content, is high-level and geared and PvPing one another. Maybe there's an argument to be made that some people are wholeheartedly exploiting fast levelling - but ultimately, I don't see why the entire server has to be punished. Not everyone knows how to level 5-26 in a single week. Infact, the vast majority of the playerbase probably has no idea how to do it.

I fully think that increasing adventuring XP gains from writs is a good compromise in that it encourages sub-level 30 roleplay but makes sure people don't have to circlegrind which can be an absolute killer for players who aren't very good at PvE or have builds that struggle with levelling (casters and monks come to mind).

I also do not understand why people arguing for slower levelling are so adamant that this must be pushed onto other people. I don't see very many people around my level range currently and I can't see why they don't want to use the tools available to slow down their levelling. People, especially people who are preoccupied with other responsibilities, probably don't want to be saddled with slowed levelling if they already can't afford to get on the server and do the "daily three writs" - which is a pretty substantial chunk of my free time.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Gremkarc » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:45 pm

How about making writs repeatable, but with less XP reward on repeat goes (perhaps dwindling to nothing if you've done them five or more times), so it's more likely that people will come together, and group together, around writ vendors?

It would give more purpose to the circle grinding, and create more opportunities for characters to spontaneously meet and group up.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by hi chat » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:10 pm

Gremkarc wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:45 pm
How about making writs repeatable, but with less XP reward on repeat goes (perhaps dwindling to nothing if you've done them five or more times), so it's more likely that people will come together, and group together, around writ vendors?

It would give more purpose to the circle grinding, and create more opportunities for characters to spontaneously meet and group up.
I do not see how encouraging people repeating the same dungeons multiple times over is beneficial at all to the gameplay loop. I fully think these heavy-handed writs punish the casual playerbase too much who do not have the time or knowledge to loop specific dungeons in favour of curbing the levelling speed of specific players that do have the ability to powerlevel at absurd speeds. Most people can't level at an incredible speed and don't want the levelling process to be even longer.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Ork » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:48 pm

As dungeons get longer, more challenging and more time consuming, I think a change to the writ system might be useful. The server systems reinforce player behavior, and the writ system does reinforce the "RP at 30" mentality. It was maybe 3-4 years ago that this mentality was seen as a meme. Of course we had our avid circle-grinders but that wasn't an issue since all players had to achieve their server clout through roleplay.

Since EE, we have more players, more stories, more XP & that's changed our culture. "RP at 30" is no longer just a meme but a priority for the majority of players. Players feel entitled to a faster transit to 30 so they can participate in the RP at that level.

The way I see it, there's a few options forward: one where leveling is relatively painless to 30 or systems are built to reinforce roleplay. The writ system lacks nuance. You go to the guy, he says where to go and what to kill and you get gold/ XP.

First thing I'd do to reinforce roleplay would to limit writs to once a day and multiply their rewards by 3. This leaves players either more downtime to roleplay or more time to explore/ grind at their discretion.

Then, I think it might be worthwhile to transition to a more roleplay intensive system. A lot of work but, systems reinforce our server culture. In this system, say you travel to the Iron mines after hearing a call for help. There you've options: a good/neutral quest and an evil quest. This could also be divided along the law/chaos spectrum. In this hypothetical, good might be asked to save the miners while evil is asked to capture them for some nefarious entity. These actions might not change their alignment, but the goal would to have conflict if two parties are doing this quest at the same time. Something that might cause conflict beyond just the banal "u summoned undead??" surface level conflict.

Obviously what I'm asking for is a HELL of a lot of work, but at the least maybe reducing writs per day would free up player time without them feeling the need/desire to maximize their xp gain by grinding 3 dungeons with their play time. You could even make writs require a party with recommended party sizes.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Whosdis » Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:57 pm

I'm still going at it, and even the high-teens quests are only giving about 2k XP per writ.

I think if the writs aren't going to be altered back to their previous state, the February nerf to adventuring XP should be reversed, as I keep running out of adventuring XP just roleplaying passively, which wasn't happening before, and I'm someone who keeps -adventure mode perpetually on to keep myself topped off on adventuring XP.

2x 3 = 6k XP at level 18 is not making me hopeful about levelling this character, this is not an enjoyable pace compared to the characters I levelled before

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, tell me I won't have to circle grind to get to level 30.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:01 pm

Whosdis wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:57 pm
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, tell me I won't have to circle grind to get to level 30.
You know how people keep telling us "you don't have to hit that level up button"?

The reverse is true as well. You don't have to circle grind to 30 to roleplay. You can start roleplaying right now, at whatever you're at.

But it's not like we are out of options. There are still SO* many writs do to. At least now it feels like your character actually gets to finish most of them before 30. Do all the writs, find the portals, kill the creature types during the writs, and you'll still have a large pool of experience points. If you're a crafter, even more so.

Also, if you roleplay in taverns, adventuring experience points are drained at half rate there. I don't know if it's common knowledge, but I was positively surprised when I found out.



*I'm speaking exclusively for the Surface. UD may be different in that regard.


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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Whosdis » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:31 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:01 pm
Whosdis wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:57 pm
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, tell me I won't have to circle grind to get to level 30.
The reverse is true as well. You don't have to circle grind to 30 to roleplay. You can start roleplaying right now, at whatever you're at.
Don't be crass and ridiculous, MissEvelyn. I have never clamored for you to be forced to level fast at any time, ever: Never once did I advise the removal of things which enable one to slow down levelling! I wholeheartedly consider it a false equivalence, because you have options to level slow, but we will be increasingly lacking options to level fast.

Furthermore, I am playing a Surface Evil character, which already has a more uphill battle even when I do reach level 30: And furthermore, that I would like to experience PVP on this character, which is completely nonviable before level 30.

I do plenty of RP between levelling, but there's going to be a point where I get bored of the more passive RP and will want something substantive. I have class levels that literally rely on non-class skills being level 30 (which is to say designed to be utilized with a skilldump class). Those are elements that I will only be able to partially pull off before level 27.

I'm sorry, there's only so much fun I can have locked out of the epic levels, when most of the content revolves around the epic levels.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Kriegos » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:21 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:48 pm
"RP at 30" is no longer just a meme but a priority for the majority of players. Players feel entitled to a faster transit to 30 so they can participate in the RP at that level.
I question whether that's the case, though. I don't at all refute that that's been your experience, but maybe it's just the experience of the majority of people you play with? I see the RP at 30 claim thrown around a lot, but if it really were the case for the majority of players, wouldn't more than 14% of the votes here be for faster leveling? If they felt entitled to faster transit to 30, they'd have voted for one, right?

According to the poll, the vast majority of the players think it's fine or even too fast, so anything claiming that most would like to get to 30 faster is just not the case. Heck, nearly three times more people than want it sped up would rather it have it slowed down, instead.

I get the perspective that RP starts at 30 when people want to have, or their stories will result in, grand ongoing PvP interactions. Whoever is the strongest is going to win, right? Therefore, if you want to have the best chance for your narrative to be the one that goes forward, you come maxed out to help ensure it. From that point of view, I get it. I really do.

What I don't get is the dismissal of any ability to make a 'real' impact or have 'real' RP before 30. You don't need to be the strongest to have a real impact on the world. You don't have to tell The Greatest Story to tell great stories. Arelith's stories, big and small, exist on every level, not just the top.
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