Economy Feedback

[SilverSnake]

Bane and Shar have their own places already

Areas that are completely awful, have see-through/hear-through walls and that anyone and all their friends can get in with some bluff gear.

Absolutely agreed. Areas for both of those are awful.

[Atlus]

Snip.

No one wants to admit many of these things in fear of repercussions from both the administration and community. As they say on the internet, this is a very based post. The game is unfortunately inherently rotten by years of bad faith behavior.

Attempting to fix the economy in any way that isn't simply lowering the bar for everyone won't budge the veterans that have burrowed their way into complacent stagnation. Maybe the inevitably is to make the game a more casual experience in some respects to allow RP to become a real focus and decentralize all this lording of the games land and resources?

[Eyeliner]

If you want more healthy factions? Make more guildhouses, so that newer factions have a chance to use them.

I agree- make more guildhouses. There could be duplicates of existing models so they don't all have to be made from scratch. Let anyone who wants one have one but it will cost them.

I also think making it impossible to pass down epic gear could help a bit. Like once it's runed and or worn it's bound to a single character. That plus putting some more oversight or limits on faction banking would curtail a lot of twinking new characters.

[Rei_Jin]

Snip.

No one wants to admit many of these things in fear of repercussions from both the administration and community. As they say on the internet, this is a very based post. The game is unfortunately inherently rotten by years of bad faith behavior.

Attempting to fix the economy in any way that isn't simply lowering the bar for everyone won't budge the veterans that have burrowed their way into complacent stagnation. Maybe the inevitably is to make the game a more casual experience in some respects to allow RP to become a real focus and decentralize all this lording of the games land and resources?

This is the thing.

There are really three broad ways to address the current situation.

(1) Character Vault and Server wipe with significant changes in difficulty - Hits everyone, makes it harder for people to build up stupid levels of wealth and resources

(2) Lower the bar - Benefits everyone, makes it easier for people to build up stupid levels of wealth and resources, so the imbalance isn't so bad

(3) Strategic enforcement - Hit the problem players/factions, leave most everything and everyone else as is, targeted adjustments to reduce the development of such imbalances in the future.


Of the options listed, (1) and (2) are the easiest options.

Option (1) would suck so much for everyone, because the established networks and systems that provide a lot of goods wouldn't exist, although it could potentially reduce the issue long term.

Option (2) would be basically ignoring the problem players/factions and instead empowering others; more guild houses, more wealth, more resources, so that what the long-term established folk have doesn't matter as much.

Option 3 (3) is what I believe has been tried over time, and isn't working to Irongron's satisfaction for whatever reason. Not a staff member, so I have no idea what is going on more broadly or in terms of enforcement.


It's my opinion that if (3) isn't working, we should be trying (2), not (1)

[MissEvelyn]

Snip.

No one wants to admit many of these things in fear of repercussions from both the administration and community. As they say on the internet, this is a very based post. The game is unfortunately inherently rotten by years of bad faith behavior.

Attempting to fix the economy in any way that isn't simply lowering the bar for everyone won't budge the veterans that have burrowed their way into complacent stagnation. Maybe the inevitably is to make the game a more casual experience in some respects to allow RP to become a real focus and decentralize all this lording of the games land and resources?

The sad truth is, if you take away the lording of the games land and resources, you take away the majority of the roleplay. And then the server will complete its transition into a full-fledged Action server with some light RP sprinkled here and there.

Unfortunately, people don't just roleplay for the sake of roleplay anymore, and that's not me being nostalgic. I believe that has something to do with how games have evolved in the world of capitalism. Nowadays in video games, it's about getting to the reward. The mentality is, if there is no reward or the reward is insufficient, the activity is not worth doing. This is why most groups don't walk and roleplay in dungeons. This is why tavern roleplay has become an afterthought. Or why you very rarely ever see expeditions planned IC for the sake of exploring and delving. It either takes a writ with the promise of rewards or epic loot to entice someone to delve into a dungeon. And even then, it's a "dungeon run" and that's what the characters, not just players, are all calling it too.

Taking it away, which I'm actually not opposed to, would sadly produce the opposite effect of what's desired. I would love to be wrong in that though ~

[Richrd]

A total character wipe would cause myself and quite a few people I know to be interested in giving Arelith another shot.

But will a hard reset ever become a thing? No. Too much unhealthy investment from some people into their Deviantart-level OCs and factions. So no matter how healthy a total reset would be for the server's economy in the long run, it will never happen because the initial blowback would be akin to a nuclear bomb.

EDIT: On the topic of "lording over land". What I assume is meant with this is a few players holding many properties and factions in their grasp. I've seen other servers (obviously with fewer players than Arelith, so take it as you want in terms of how valid what I am about to say here is) where this worked just fine. But! Those players having control over property and entire factions including many other players were all rivals in one way or another. There were little to no friendlymen, people trying to accommodate everybody and get along with their worst enemies. And that is where Arelith currently sadly falls flat. There's too little actual competition going on between settlements and factions other than the usual UD vs Surface slogfest and the "let's keep killing them until they quit the game" ordeal.

[Atlus]

Snip.

No one wants to admit many of these things in fear of repercussions from both the administration and community. As they say on the internet, this is a very based post. The game is unfortunately inherently rotten by years of bad faith behavior.

Attempting to fix the economy in any way that isn't simply lowering the bar for everyone won't budge the veterans that have burrowed their way into complacent stagnation. Maybe the inevitably is to make the game a more casual experience in some respects to allow RP to become a real focus and decentralize all this lording of the games land and resources?

The sad truth is, if you take away the lording of the games land and resources, you take away the majority of the roleplay. And then the server will complete its transition into a full-fledged Action server with some light RP sprinkled here and there.

Unfortunately, people don't just roleplay for the sake of roleplay anymore, and that's not me being nostalgic. I believe that has something to do with how games have evolved in the world of capitalism. Nowadays in video games, it's about getting to the reward. The mentality is, if there is no reward or the reward is insufficient, the activity is not worth doing. This is why most groups don't walk and roleplay in dungeons. This is why tavern roleplay has become an afterthought. Or why you very rarely ever see expeditions planned IC for the sake of exploring and delving. It either takes a writ with the promise of rewards or epic loot to entice someone to delve into a dungeon. And even then, it's a "dungeon run" and that's what the characters, not just players, are all calling it too.

Taking it away, which I'm actually not opposed to, would sadly produce the opposite effect of what's desired. I would love to be wrong in that though ~

Correct me if I'm wrong then but it sounds like all non-social RP is virtually crippled then, and this kind of change would simply shed the lasting remnants of pretending such engagement exists?

That's honestly better than continuing living a lie and being Stepford Smilers all the way. Once that cord is snipped we can turn dungeoneering into the money fountain it should be.

[Arigard]

Any kind of character wipe talk is server death territory - and it won't have any effect in the long run. All it would do is hit players who have invested a ton of time into Arelith that are in the middle. I know for me personally, it took me over two years and then months of applications to get the character concept I'm playing right now. There's no way I'd ever put that kind of time investment back into Arelith.

However, for the players who are ahead of the curve - it's going to do nothing, because what we are speaking about here has nothing to do with gold, but everything to do with player knowledge/networking/organisation and time investment.

Within a month of a "wipe", the same players who are ahead of the game now - would be right back ahead of the game once more with groups of level 30 characters - grinding themselves into the ground - pooling their resources together and then the rest of the server, playing casually is what? Left at level 15 with no gold to their name and even less player agency?

Are their problems with the economy? It's possible. There's probably too much gold flying around in player banks etc. Do some players end up in groups playing together? Sure. Are they as infamously exclusive and torch and pitchfork-ey towards other players as is being suggested in this thread? Not overly in my experience. I've flirted with a whole different bunch of factions over the past three years (including OOC) and I'm yet to find this secretive cabal that controls everything that is so inward that they refuse to do anything except sit in their own quarters RPing with themselves. Most users on discord are simply watching films/netflix or killing time whilst they try and find things to do to supplement their lack of IG purpose post 30.

I think this thread is not seeing the forest from the trees. Outside of being a trader - or part of a faction. Once you hit level 30 you realize after a few characters there's very little to actually do in Arelith. You either:

- Log in to run random runic dungeons
- Log in do casual RP - which without weight behind it (politics/intrigue etc) becomes stale very quickly - how long can we really be expected to log in for hours on end simply doing RP about how someone's day is going for example - or language lessons.
- After a while you either sit back and go... well might as well go and see what's in a runic chest - or you go out of your way to try and build some kind of conflict RP which inevitably leads nowhere - because nothing is actually achievable outside of short term PvP success - and 9/10 you end up worried that you're either going to be reported or that someone is going to be upset and you'll have to simply deal with wall of green text lasting hours for a five minute stretch of time.

Everyone wants conflict and things to do but nobody wants to ever be in a situation they are not in control of - or lose the narrative to. These two viewpoints cannot exist together.

Arelith has a problem - but I wouldn't say it's the economy. It's a lack of edge. There's been so much focus on creating classes and mechanics and balancing, but there's been very little (outside of sailing - which is regional to a specific circumstance) focus on building mechanics for RP & things to achieve and build towards on level 30 characters outside of gold.

If you want to play a persona and -be- an actual role within Arelith in the day to day life of a character that has actual mechanical backing there's only really a few things you can really do -

- You can be a trader - You can craft, you can provide a service/stack your resources and wealth. That's a distinctive role that you are able to be as a character
- You can be a trainer - a soldier/guard - You can take characters to the arena - train them etc - or question shady looking characters.
- You can be an explorer/dungeon delver looking for items/gems/ores etc etc.
- You can be a sailor.
- You can an assassin/information gatherer - but how much value does information actually hold within the world?

The above are roles that are actively mechanically supported by the game - where you can log in and say "Today I'm going to spend tonight performing this role to give my character purpose" - the majority of these roles revolve around hoarding and gold acquisition - or creating wealth.

The things you cannot do that have genuine functional backing - is actually log into your character as a priest/mage/rogue - whatever and have activities and purpose that are mechanically supported that create demand for those characters within the world. There are no ways mages can research new magic for example - or unlock secrets and create magical artifacts or create things that have impact within the world - we have the ritual system - which was a good step in the right direction - but ultimately these RP systems always seem to be held back by the proviso that they don't want to rock the status quo too much and upset players.

But the above doesn't correlate with meaningful RP, you need to rock the boat and make the world dynamic if you want purposeful RP to emerge & if you want demand for players to engage with each other to increase. If information gatherers/spies are going to be of use for example - their information has to actually have context within RP that leads to something tangible that has impact. Most players meet an "informant" at present and they instantly know OOC that they're just going through the motions - because whatever they commit their gold to - will simply not lead to anything substantial IG.

Imbalance is not always bad. In fact imbalance is required for a world with it's moving parts to function. If all items can be found everywhere at all times - why do characters need to move out of their comfort zone to challenge themselves to find things in places like Andunor? All shops are the same - everywhere - all cities are simply backdrops unchanging and immutable. There is no RP about resource distribution - or political intrigue around how to undermine Brog over Cordor - or ways to cripple the Underdark - because ultimately it cannot happen - so if that RP exists it is ultimately fruitless and toothless and over time players understand this and then begin to commit less and less of their time to actually doing the RP - because it leads absolutely nowhere - it's not mechanically supported.

As an example - When I played Gorehound - we took out the Dreadnought and some of the crew left mid journey - it left us in a precarious position where if we were to be attacked - we would likely be sunk. Low and behold the Cordor Flagship turned up and starting bombarding us and we were forced to beach the Dreadnought at Red Dragon Isle for a day or two and abandon it. That lead to 1-2 nights of planning of how we were going to recover the ship - roleplay of trying to search for sailors in the UD literally ANYONE with sail who could help us and then eventually a rescue mission. That was all caused because of imbalance - of us not having the correct tools for the job at the moment in time and so we were actively forced to build connections outside of the formed crew of the ship to find others who could functionally support us. There was no grand PvP - but there is cause/consequence and risk/reward & ultimately it was all caused by imbalance and the RP that was generated was not "pretend" but actual meaningful.

If every character can do everything - there is absolutely no need for roles like priest - rogue - ranger etc to exist outside of the abilities on their character sheet for PvE and PvP - and that doesn't mean you need to gate keep content - simply build things into the world that give these classes purpose that supplement a basic level of engagement that any player can achieve - systems for rogues - systems for rangers (pathway networks/places only rangers can escort you through) - areas for these classes where they can engage and find meaning - rogues guilds - ranger camps - temples - that serve more of a purpose than being a backdrop etc etc - and this extends to the economy likewise - but the crux is these systems cannot simply be optional. If it was only optional for myself on Gorehound to find mechanical sailors - would i have had to actually reach out and make those connections? No. Would i have done so regardless? Maybe - but not to the extent I had to, because I was constrained into needing those roles and making those connections.

If Brog - Cordor - Guldorand - Andunor and other settlements existed within their own ecosystems - with their own positives and negatives and imbalance that players needed to work with - leadership that mattered - policies that mattered - politics that mattered - crime syndicates peddling illicit goods that have tangible mechanical reasons to be valuable and on top of that there were functional reasons for rangers/rogues/priests/mages/druids etc & other classes to truly be required on a day to day basis - then the day to day RP would change from characters standing around idly talking about whatever they can think of to fill the time to actual true RP with weight that effects the world and involves a whole host of roles/professions and different character skills.

If goals were able to be achieved that changed the world - players would commit to that RP - but the bottom line is players need to want to lose control for this to happen - they need to be happy to lose - to be placed outside of their comfort zone - to be in conflict - to accept bad things might happen to their characters and the server needs to create an environment where the quality of the RP systems that are offered are the focal point over builds/classes and ultimately luxury content that whilst nice and very much appreciated - ultimately does not create a strong foundation of a world with true character agency.

You can't have a world that has real weight to it through RP and at the same time please every player across the board OOC - it simply won't happen. If you have a world that pleases everyone - then over time all you're going to notice is that it will start to lose its grander narratives RP will not flow as naturally - events will not have strong RP reasoning behind them and players will tend to band together - to find the interaction they are looking for within the world in other areas.

If the glass ceiling stops characters at level 30 from truly being able to achieve meaningful world change - then players need to fill their time and supplement their lack of true purpose with purpose elsewhere and the easiest way to do that to feel part of something that matters is to play with other people and fill that time with connection OOC - and if those players (outside of a leader being assassinated and losing their elected position) can never be toppled from their geographical location by IG effort or action - clever RP or politics because the systems do not allow for it - are we really surprised that players become used to the equilibrium and hold onto properties and positions for so long? Once you gain such a position as a group or character - at present it's almost the top of the mountain - you have achieved the most you ever will achieve - what impetus is there to try something new? What risk is there of making a bad decision and losing what you have?

The communities that have been created by Arelith & the staleness that is being discussed here has not been done so in spite of it - but by the direction and vision of the server as a whole & a disassociation from the immersion of the world & it's frameworks. Would there still be discords if there was more on the line? Sure - of course - but there would be much more opportunity for characters, roles, function and reasons for individual players on the day to day to be able to log in and connect with others outside of having to be part of some huge political faction? Absolutely.

You can't simply nuke everyones gold reserves and expect it will solve these problems, because at the heart of the problem is not gold - or the economy - it's a lack of purpose encouraging players to seek each other out and engage with the strengths and weaknesses of their own character.

If you want strong RP to be created that is inclusive for the roles of characters - focus on building systems that provide for it - that provide cause and consequence - frameworks within which players need to sit and act - that gently nudge them away from their friends and their constant circles towards RP prioritized expectations that require them to fulfill the role they have chosen to pursue - a good example would be Druids + necromancers. If you don't want two OOC friends crowbarring the lore so that every single necromancer is an enemy except the one played by their friends and suddenly there's a different set of rules mechanically enforce these rules in the world in a clever way that provides them with scenarios that they simply cannot ignore.

Does the above limit absolute player choice? Absolutely - but it's there for a reason - to instill the template for which you have decided to play within so that the world remains healthy and rich with the right kind of context and not OOC driven biases that water things down until the point where IC decisions become extensions of OOC decisions.

You can't have a healthy world that is immersive - that is meaningful - where conflict is driven by purpose and politics and have a world where everyone is in their comfort zone with zero imbalance at all times - where no decisions have cause or consequence - where no class/religion/race is constrained in any way and where everyone has access to everything and RP is simply about ultimately playing pretend - because in that situation all you will eventually get is stagnation and OOC relationships trumping IC decisions - there is no incentive for them not to and the RP in that scenario is 100% only based on how long players have the enthusiasm to keep up RPing for RPs sake alone.

The two are diametrically opposed -Ultimately if you want a world that has impact and meaning as a functional RP space - you need to commit to that vision and build the correct systems to support it.

[Rei_Jin]

You can't have a healthy world that is immersive - that is meaningful - where conflict is driven by purpose and politics and have a world where everyone is in their comfort zone with zero imbalance at all times - where no decisions have cause or consequence - where no class/religion/race is constrained in any way and where everyone has access to everything and RP is simply about ultimately playing pretend - because in that situation all you will eventually get is stagnation and OOC relationships trumping IC decisions - there is no incentive for them not to and the RP in that scenario is 100% only based on how long players have the enthusiasm to keep up RPing for RPs sake alone.

The two are diametrically opposed -Ultimately if you want a world that has impact and meaning as a functional RP space - you need to commit to that vision and build the correct systems to support it.

QFT

+1 to everything in that post, and +2 for this bit.

[Atlus]

Truth Bomb.

Yeah I can't disagree here. RP is incompatible with a world that never changes and appeals to stagnation. D&D was never designed to work at this scale and systematized interactivity.

[Richrd]

big truth nuke

Agreeing overall except for the point on how a total character wipe would ruin the server while only leading back to things as they currently are. That is true only if a character wipe wasn't accompanied by big and meaningful changes to systems and the economy. Of course if we only wipe all characters then what'll happen is what you described. Same old, same old.

[Floral Shoppe]

Only way I would want to see a "wipe" or reboot would be to have a brand new Arelith server running concurrently with perceived economy issues corrected and with no character transfer in between, and that could gradually at some point in the future take over completely but in the meantime we're giving months or even years to wind down our current characters,

[Aradin]

Arigard's post is outstanding in its insights into the Arelith structure. A lot of wisdom there.

I think that when it comes to development on Arelith insofar as its impact on roleplay, we all like cookies but what we're really craving is a meal. Even if that means we have to eat our vegetables.
And that means things to do. You can't reasonably expect every player to be a mover and shaker of their own initiative. So give us stuff to do, let us throw resources at it, and you might see the top-heavy wealth reserves even out (at least a little bit!).

[I will never sleep]

Arigard's post is very incredibly good and speaks of somethings better than I can say myself. For a long time I mostly just did scheduled events as it was the only thing of consequence I felt I could do. A problem you will run into with just about anything is that Arelith has too many conflicting styles of play. So many people are just not even playing the same game. Between heavy RP, dating sim RP, grind with 0 or minimal talking, endless underdark surface warfare that seems to be for no real gain or end, the list may go on.

You will find, however, that a shared aspect of almost any playstyle is the accumulation of in game wealth. Even the complete RP build mechanical horror show builds that I know end up with millions of gold, because, yes, it is the only thing "to do" past a certain point.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Arigards post is good. I'm fairly certain he has told me I was wrong when I said several things in the same vein in the past, but I'm glad he came around. It does have the one problem that is consistent with Arelith players as a whole though, and that's the whole make these changes as long as it doesn't affect me syndrome. The best way to accomplish what he lays out as what the server is missing is to take a year or so planning out the server vision, then blow it all up and start from scratch to implement it.

Implementing things to accomplish for level 30 characters, making the settlements unique, creating an air of mystery and intrigue to the server, ect ect... These things all take a lot of time and effort. If you do it piecemeal in the existing environment, most of it is going to go to the top end of the player base because wealth will still be insane power. For example, you want to find the five things that will help you solve mystery x on the server? Good luck competing with a faction that has access to 200 million gold across all the players in it, they will just outbid you if someone finds a piece and is selling it. This will ultimately lead to discouragement on the folks trying to make this change on the development side and will never reach its full potential as a result.

So yeah, "oh no, teh wipe!" is the best option to achieve the goals he laid out to improve the server from top to bottom. I can totally accept that it's not going to happen, and I have refrained from suggesting it again (even if I have mentioned how effective it would be a few times now in this thread), but when you start your post with "I'm unwilling to give up the past few months of work" and then expect people to spend a boat load of time working on the changes you want to see in an environment that is completely hostile to those changes it's extremely hard not to notice the disconnect.

I don't mean to pick on you here Arigard, I consider you one of the good ones when it comes to players on Arelith, you were just the first person to essentially say " Do all this work, but it can't adversely affect my efforts." If we really want to see Arelith be the best it can be, that involves sacrifice all around.

[Scylon]

Arigards post is indeed the core issue.

End game has nothing meaningful for the average player. Most of the DM events as stated by other players are usually muscled in by the "elite" crews. It is indeed the case where there are clicks in the server. That is not to say they won't interact with you, however generally you are treated at arms length.

My suggestion about dynamic areas is a good way to have the big boys toss money at each other. The DMs could control how much crap costs in order to deplete resources from factions they deem too rich. And hey, they might just want to stay wealthy, and stay away from the whole system. It also promotes these clicks form having to outsource to gather materials etc.

One thing to keep in mind is the portal system makes getting anything you want trivial.

[TurningLeaf]

Without hard data I can't be sure but I have the idea that more commoners could be stimulating for the economy and for the server as a whole.

Pursuant to that, this may have been suggested before but I would like to see a tier or tiers of items with crafting DCs so high that many are only craftable by a dedicated commoner crafter. DC 70, 80 items. Then, another rarified tier beyond that which not only can be crafted solely by this type of character, but which include as ingredients widgets other commoner-only-tier items from other crafting disciplines. DC 100+ items. I believe this would tend to result in more commoner characters overall. While I'm not certain about the economic/atmospheric benefit provided to the server by commoners it seems to be positive from what I've observed.

[Arigard]

So yeah, "oh no, teh wipe!" is the best option to achieve the goals he laid out to improve the server from top to bottom. I can totally accept that it's not going to happen, and I have refrained from suggesting it again (even if I have mentioned how effective it would be a few times now in this thread), but when you start your post with "I'm unwilling to give up the past few months of work" and then expect people to spend a boat load of time working on the changes you want to see in an environment that is completely hostile to those changes it's extremely hard not to notice the disconnect.

I don't mean to pick on you here Arigard, I consider you one of the good ones when it comes to players on Arelith, you were just the first person to essentially say " Do all this work, but it can't adversely affect my efforts." If we really want to see Arelith be the best it can be, that involves sacrifice all around.

Well that depends on what the sacrifice is and what it's for - if it's for the idea that nuking everyone's vaults tomorrow would somehow solve Arelith - no thanks, I'll stick with how it is now - because as it stands that would just be asking a whole load of people to fall on their sword arbitrarily for the sake of it. At a personal level and this is just being honest here, I don't have massive amounts of time to play currently, nowhere near like I did a year ago through Covid and if suddenly my vault was gone tomorrow - with no real change in the server at all - then yeah, I'd likely feel a disparity between the sacrifice the server was asking players to make for what we were getting in return.

If it was a total gold and equipment wipe tomorrow? I really couldn't care less about that - go for it - i guarantee it's not going to fix a damn thing - but yeah, go wild.

I'm not totally against complete vault wipes under the right circumstances - if like others have said it was accompanied by large scale changes to what characters can do and focus on alongside a complete re-branding of the server - but my comments were in relation to the impact it would have fixing the economy right now as it stands.

I understand there are always going to be frustrations at some people having things other do not - be it old builds - property - special races etc - but it's impossible in a game like Arelith for things to be fair, always. There will always be someone that can build a better build than you - or who grinds more gold, has more experience in PvP, knows how to grind PvE more efficiently, manages to engineer themselves into the center of stories, has more time to play than you etc etc - if the reasoning behind wipes being brought up is the idea that it will instill a sense of fairness going forward - then the question is how is fair defined in a world like Arelith and what constitutes a successful and balanced economy?

For me it's got nothing to do with how much gold is in someones bank and more about how much demand the server creates for characters to be able to play their persona effectively with mechanical backing. Currently most of the economic focus in the world revolves around gear and consumables, and that's no surprise - but how much revolves around investment in RP? How much is being directed at finding new promising characters to employ their skills, or recruit them for a functional use? Very little.

If you have to sit there at level 30 as a ranger - or a priest, classes with clear defined roles in how they could be integrated within a world asking "Well what the hell do I do now?" - when you are actively trying to find RP, when there is a clear and defined theme behind your character and how they "should" exist within the world - to give you things to do day by day so that you become a working cog in a fluid and dynamic machine (the world at large), then the system is simply not supporting the day to day lived experience of these characters that players want to portray. You would have more functionality & demand on a cleric right now in game through the sailing system as a sailor than you would as an actual priest - for example.

As an aside i've never personally had a character with more than five million gold in my bank, my current has a million or so - i've never been in a high position in a faction that had 10+ million - Gorehound had maybe a million gold for most of his life as a character and wasn't even 5% geared - and yet he became a prominent figure in the Underdark - even owning desirably property like the Dreadnought. I guess my point is - at no time has some faction having ridiculous amounts of gold ever really effected me or anyone I've interacted with that's found prominence on a character at a personal level - and I would be surprised if it has actually had a day to day impact on many people.

But I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard people saying they feel burnt out because they're constantly having to force themselves to create RP they know is going to lead almost nowhere and they just simply have less and less enthusiasm to log in. Usually these players just decide to try another class and then level something else new up to 30 - but there's only so many times you can do that over and over with no defined role you can drop into before you end up back standing around in a settlement with absolutely nothing to do - so logically, because players still want to play & are craving purposeful RP they stick around on the off chance something might happen that's interesting & end up logged in, half paying attention - killing time by hanging out with friends in discord and watching Netflix. This is how these kinds of communities that are considered the bane of the community are created - as a side effect of needing to send their attention somewhere else - not intentionally to try and undermine, or corrupt the server from the inside.

Now I'm sure there are bad faith actors out there, there always are & there's plenty of people who don't like things when they don't go their way - but on the whole the worst you might find in most of these discords is a slight "Us versus them" mentality which usually gets dispelled the moment someone from a different RP persuasion interacts with them & they hear another version of whatever the events that transpired were.

[Aren]

Any kind of character wipe talk is server death territory - and it won't have any effect in the long run. All it would do is hit players who have invested a ton of time into Arelith that are in the middle. I know for me personally, it took me over two years and then months of applications to get the character concept I'm playing right now. There's no way I'd ever put that kind of time investment back into Arelith.

However, for the players who are ahead of the curve - it's going to do nothing, because what we are speaking about here has nothing to do with gold, but everything to do with player knowledge/networking/organisation and time investment.

Within a month of a "wipe", the same players who are ahead of the game now - would be right back ahead of the game once more with groups of level 30 characters - grinding themselves into the ground - pooling their resources together and then the rest of the server, playing casually is what? Left at level 15 with no gold to their name and even less player agency?

Are their problems with the economy? It's possible. There's probably too much gold flying around in player banks etc. Do some players end up in groups playing together? Sure. Are they as infamously exclusive and torch and pitchfork-ey towards other players as is being suggested in this thread? Not overly in my experience. I've flirted with a whole different bunch of factions over the past three years (including OOC) and I'm yet to find this secretive cabal that controls everything that is so inward that they refuse to do anything except sit in their own quarters RPing with themselves. Most users on discord are simply watching films/netflix or killing time whilst they try and find things to do to supplement their lack of IG purpose post 30.

I think this thread is not seeing the forest from the trees. Outside of being a trader - or part of a faction. Once you hit level 30 you realize after a few characters there's very little to actually do in Arelith. You either:

- Log in to run random runic dungeons
- Log in do casual RP - which without weight behind it (politics/intrigue etc) becomes stale very quickly - how long can we really be expected to log in for hours on end simply doing RP about how someone's day is going for example - or language lessons.
- After a while you either sit back and go... well might as well go and see what's in a runic chest - or you go out of your way to try and build some kind of conflict RP which inevitably leads nowhere - because nothing is actually achievable outside of short term PvP success - and 9/10 you end up worried that you're either going to be reported or that someone is going to be upset and you'll have to simply deal with wall of green text lasting hours for a five minute stretch of time.

Everyone wants conflict and things to do but nobody wants to ever be in a situation they are not in control of - or lose the narrative to. These two viewpoints cannot exist together.

Arelith has a problem - but I wouldn't say it's the economy. It's a lack of edge. There's been so much focus on creating classes and mechanics and balancing, but there's been very little (outside of sailing - which is regional to a specific circumstance) focus on building mechanics for RP & things to achieve and build towards on level 30 characters outside of gold.

If you want to play a persona and -be- an actual role within Arelith in the day to day life of a character that has actual mechanical backing there's only really a few things you can really do -

- You can be a trader - You can craft, you can provide a service/stack your resources and wealth. That's a distinctive role that you are able to be as a character
- You can be a trainer - a soldier/guard - You can take characters to the arena - train them etc - or question shady looking characters.
- You can be an explorer/dungeon delver looking for items/gems/ores etc etc.
- You can be a sailor.
- You can an assassin/information gatherer - but how much value does information actually hold within the world?

The above are roles that are actively mechanically supported by the game - where you can log in and say "Today I'm going to spend tonight performing this role to give my character purpose" - the majority of these roles revolve around hoarding and gold acquisition - or creating wealth.

The things you cannot do that have genuine functional backing - is actually log into your character as a priest/mage/rogue - whatever and have activities and purpose that are mechanically supported that create demand for those characters within the world. There are no ways mages can research new magic for example - or unlock secrets and create magical artifacts or create things that have impact within the world - we have the ritual system - which was a good step in the right direction - but ultimately these RP systems always seem to be held back by the proviso that they don't want to rock the status quo too much and upset players.

But the above doesn't correlate with meaningful RP, you need to rock the boat and make the world dynamic if you want purposeful RP to emerge & if you want demand for players to engage with each other to increase. If information gatherers/spies are going to be of use for example - their information has to actually have context within RP that leads to something tangible that has impact. Most players meet an "informant" at present and they instantly know OOC that they're just going through the motions - because whatever they commit their gold to - will simply not lead to anything substantial IG.

Imbalance is not always bad. In fact imbalance is required for a world with it's moving parts to function. If all items can be found everywhere at all times - why do characters need to move out of their comfort zone to challenge themselves to find things in places like Andunor? All shops are the same - everywhere - all cities are simply backdrops unchanging and immutable. There is no RP about resource distribution - or political intrigue around how to undermine Brog over Cordor - or ways to cripple the Underdark - because ultimately it cannot happen - so if that RP exists it is ultimately fruitless and toothless and over time players understand this and then begin to commit less and less of their time to actually doing the RP - because it leads absolutely nowhere - it's not mechanically supported.

As an example - When I played Gorehound - we took out the Dreadnought and some of the crew left mid journey - it left us in a precarious position where if we were to be attacked - we would likely be sunk. Low and behold the Cordor Flagship turned up and starting bombarding us and we were forced to beach the Dreadnought at Red Dragon Isle for a day or two and abandon it. That lead to 1-2 nights of planning of how we were going to recover the ship - roleplay of trying to search for sailors in the UD literally ANYONE with sail who could help us and then eventually a rescue mission. That was all caused because of imbalance - of us not having the correct tools for the job at the moment in time and so we were actively forced to build connections outside of the formed crew of the ship to find others who could functionally support us. There was no grand PvP - but there is cause/consequence and risk/reward & ultimately it was all caused by imbalance and the RP that was generated was not "pretend" but actual meaningful.

If every character can do everything - there is absolutely no need for roles like priest - rogue - ranger etc to exist outside of the abilities on their character sheet for PvE and PvP - and that doesn't mean you need to gate keep content - simply build things into the world that give these classes purpose that supplement a basic level of engagement that any player can achieve - systems for rogues - systems for rangers (pathway networks/places only rangers can escort you through) - areas for these classes where they can engage and find meaning - rogues guilds - ranger camps - temples - that serve more of a purpose than being a backdrop etc etc - and this extends to the economy likewise - but the crux is these systems cannot simply be optional. If it was only optional for myself on Gorehound to find mechanical sailors - would i have had to actually reach out and make those connections? No. Would i have done so regardless? Maybe - but not to the extent I had to, because I was constrained into needing those roles and making those connections.

If Brog - Cordor - Guldorand - Andunor and other settlements existed within their own ecosystems - with their own positives and negatives and imbalance that players needed to work with - leadership that mattered - policies that mattered - politics that mattered - crime syndicates peddling illicit goods that have tangible mechanical reasons to be valuable and on top of that there were functional reasons for rangers/rogues/priests/mages/druids etc & other classes to truly be required on a day to day basis - then the day to day RP would change from characters standing around idly talking about whatever they can think of to fill the time to actual true RP with weight that effects the world and involves a whole host of roles/professions and different character skills.

If goals were able to be achieved that changed the world - players would commit to that RP - but the bottom line is players need to want to lose control for this to happen - they need to be happy to lose - to be placed outside of their comfort zone - to be in conflict - to accept bad things might happen to their characters and the server needs to create an environment where the quality of the RP systems that are offered are the focal point over builds/classes and ultimately luxury content that whilst nice and very much appreciated - ultimately does not create a strong foundation of a world with true character agency.

You can't have a world that has real weight to it through RP and at the same time please every player across the board OOC - it simply won't happen. If you have a world that pleases everyone - then over time all you're going to notice is that it will start to lose its grander narratives RP will not flow as naturally - events will not have strong RP reasoning behind them and players will tend to band together - to find the interaction they are looking for within the world in other areas.

If the glass ceiling stops characters at level 30 from truly being able to achieve meaningful world change - then players need to fill their time and supplement their lack of true purpose with purpose elsewhere and the easiest way to do that to feel part of something that matters is to play with other people and fill that time with connection OOC - and if those players (outside of a leader being assassinated and losing their elected position) can never be toppled from their geographical location by IG effort or action - clever RP or politics because the systems do not allow for it - are we really surprised that players become used to the equilibrium and hold onto properties and positions for so long? Once you gain such a position as a group or character - at present it's almost the top of the mountain - you have achieved the most you ever will achieve - what impetus is there to try something new? What risk is there of making a bad decision and losing what you have?

The communities that have been created by Arelith & the staleness that is being discussed here has not been done so in spite of it - but by the direction and vision of the server as a whole & a disassociation from the immersion of the world & it's frameworks. Would there still be discords if there was more on the line? Sure - of course - but there would be much more opportunity for characters, roles, function and reasons for individual players on the day to day to be able to log in and connect with others outside of having to be part of some huge political faction? Absolutely.

You can't simply nuke everyones gold reserves and expect it will solve these problems, because at the heart of the problem is not gold - or the economy - it's a lack of purpose encouraging players to seek each other out and engage with the strengths and weaknesses of their own character.

If you want strong RP to be created that is inclusive for the roles of characters - focus on building systems that provide for it - that provide cause and consequence - frameworks within which players need to sit and act - that gently nudge them away from their friends and their constant circles towards RP prioritized expectations that require them to fulfill the role they have chosen to pursue - a good example would be Druids + necromancers. If you don't want two OOC friends crowbarring the lore so that every single necromancer is an enemy except the one played by their friends and suddenly there's a different set of rules mechanically enforce these rules in the world in a clever way that provides them with scenarios that they simply cannot ignore.

Does the above limit absolute player choice? Absolutely - but it's there for a reason - to instill the template for which you have decided to play within so that the world remains healthy and rich with the right kind of context and not OOC driven biases that water things down until the point where IC decisions become extensions of OOC decisions.

You can't have a healthy world that is immersive - that is meaningful - where conflict is driven by purpose and politics and have a world where everyone is in their comfort zone with zero imbalance at all times - where no decisions have cause or consequence - where no class/religion/race is constrained in any way and where everyone has access to everything and RP is simply about ultimately playing pretend - because in that situation all you will eventually get is stagnation and OOC relationships trumping IC decisions - there is no incentive for them not to and the RP in that scenario is 100% only based on how long players have the enthusiasm to keep up RPing for RPs sake alone.

The two are diametrically opposed -Ultimately if you want a world that has impact and meaning as a functional RP space - you need to commit to that vision and build the correct systems to support it.

I appreciate you putting time into writing down what we have discussed many times over the years. I wholeheartedly agree with you bud.

[Irongron]

I'm not going to comment on overall culture and balance, beyond saying that the longer we play a game, the more I feel we see its limitations and not its strengths. In my experience it tends to be the true veteran players who talk about staleness and repetitive, unfulfilling play. Once one has started to view the game though such a lens it is extremely hard to get the magic back, might be we're just getting bored of it. I'm happy, indeed very proud of the overall design, even the economy, though it is the latter, specifically I began this thread to read player views on, and if it veers to far into other territories I'm going to presume its run its course, especially if it starts being critical of other players.

The main thing though, that I wanted to reiterate, once again, is there will NEVER be any kind of vault wipe on Arelith. I do appreciate some feel it it is a good idea, but I can only say I personally consider it genuinely insane.

[Nobs]

Perhaps the ability to actualy take over a city or a town by force would be a good money sink.
Wars could cost money , repairs of buildings could cost money.

I was there when Cordor got bombed by Sencliff but some how i doubt it costed the city any thing in the forms of repairs. (Hope im wrong though!)

[Rei_Jin]

Supply is through the roof, settlement resources are by now a legacy system, browsing player run shops causes eye-bleed, factions and OOC groups have stockpiled enough gold and resources to make the EU food mountain insecure, and veteran players simply rely on their Discord buddies to fix them up with anything they might need for that level 30 spreadsheet loadout, and ignore the in-game economy entirely.

I'm planning on some changes in this area, but before I do - have at it.

Tell me the problems you perceive with the economy, what causes them, and what changes you would make to fix it.

You also have my permission to panic about any badly-thought-out, ill-informed, ham-fisted changes you imagine I might soon be making - just try not to be rude or dismissive to one-another.

To go back to where you started with this then Irongron after what has been discussed so far?

I know I'm going to say some things that should be really obvious, but sometimes it helps to say them.

Supply: If there's too much stuff out there, then there needs to be NPCs to remove the supply. Cycling it between player characters doesn't help. Progressive taxation is the solution in that respect, and it has to be done without notice so that people can't just shift their resources to others to minimise the impact (or it needs to be backdated, which is also possible and probably more elegant). If it's about gold? Set it so that every faction a single character is in counts its full value towards their net worth, then put in place a once-off taxation that ramps up over certain values. 0-10 mill might be zero, 10-20 mill might be 25% (of that amount), 20-30 is 50%, and 30-40 is 75%, with 40+ being 95%. This would hit those who have accumulated stupidly large amounts of gold through multiple factions hard, and reduce the supply significantly.
In terms of other resources (Adamantine, Mithril Dust, Star Sapphires/Beljurils/Rogue Stones, etc.) also set a tax level and coding that checks gem pouches/storage/inventory, and simply reduces them in the same taxation method, with threshold values.
Hopefully this would only need to be done the once, but if the system gets out of whack again, the staff would reserve the right to implement taxation again without notice; simply the awareness of this will discourage hoarding.


Settlement Resources: If this system is a legacy system, adjust it to make it more relevant, or remove it. Personally I'd be looking at two aspects; what happens to income for the district/city, and the extended warehouse. Put simply, players shouldn't be able to make money from donating goods to the city via a system; it should be something they have to do in person with an authorised member of the leadership. You want to donate? Go for it, no interaction required, but you want payment, got to see someone in person. And the money received for taxes and rent? Well, that's no longer accessible by the leadership, it's locked away by the overseers, so that the leadership has to cover any costs for the district/city themselves.
Why would anyone want to lead a district/city then?
Because of (a) prestige, (b) control, (c) keeping out others, and (d) under the table deals, if they're so inclined.
And if that means a district/city ends up NOT under control? Tax rates go up a decent chunk, and so do rents, meaning that it's in the best interests of those invested in a district/city to make sure someone is leading it.
In terms of the Extended Warehouse? I'd do away with it altogether, which then creates a market for players to sell resources in their stores.


Changing those two elements would go a long way to adjust player run stores, factions, and OOC groups.

[Richrd]

The main thing though, that I wanted to reiterate, once again, is there will NEVER be any kind of vault wipe on Arelith. I do appreciate some feel it it is a good idea, but I can only say I personally consider it genuinely insane.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly makes you think of a total vault wipe as "genuinely insane"?

[Irongron]

The main thing though, that I wanted to reiterate, once again, is there will NEVER be any kind of vault wipe on Arelith. I do appreciate some feel it it is a good idea, but I can only say I personally consider it genuinely insane.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly makes you think of a total vault wipe as "genuinely insane"?

Because it would be an assault against the very thing that gives Arelith its value; the community.

Arelith is all about the people that have played here, its history and what they've built together. A vault wipe would be so high-handed, and insulting, and massively disrespectful to a great many players, and would leave them insecure for years to come. I will absolutely never do this.

If players want to wipe their own vaults? Sure, knock yourselves out. I'm just really not okay with suggesting others should have theirs removed too.

[Subtext]

I'm not going to comment on overall culture and balance, beyond saying that the longer we play a game, the more I feel we see its limitations and not its strengths. In my experience it tends to be the true veteran players who talk about staleness and repetitive, unfulfilling play. Once one has started to view the game though such a lens it is extremely hard to get the magic back, might be we're just getting bored of it.

But that's in no way something you can fix or change. Even with all new and fun things you introduce, they only remain so until said veterans have exhausted the nuances of those. Every game allowing perpetual play will run into that issue sooner or later and the group of players having the "stamina" to play the same thing for years continuously is incredibly small. People need breaks from time to time.
I definitely take breaks from NWN and do something else. But I also enjoy coming back with vigor and playing again.

Simply said, from my perspective? Things are mostly fine. There's always something to nitpick, a class balance just being plain wrong, perhaps single instances being overtuned or yielding too much. I'm sure that some here play FFXIV as well - a fully blown commercial game with a paid development team and a massive playerbase. And yet there are outright shitstorms about balancing which may not even be unfounded.
Point being...even a gaggle of paid developers doesn't always get it perfectly right. Arelith in comparison is essentially a volunteer project and still doesn't do any worse.
I think it's amazing that this PW is large enough to actually have something like an economy and outside of smaller outliers, I really do not see anything being fundamentally broken.

And I am glad you clarified that there will be no vault wipe.