Summons are overpowered

[AstralUniverse]

35 is a very mild exaggeration (except when it's not), you dismissing the entire post due to a very mild exaggeration is what is bad faith.

(EDIT: My tone came off as too aggressive on the first attempt of answering this. This is Take #2.)


This is far from a mild exaggeration.

[Scylon]

Summons need to fit roles if they are to be balanced. Right now a summon will do basically everything in one package.

EG, if I have a summon that pumps out awesome melee DPS, it'll need some maintenance/healing to offset the fact it womps stuff.

On the other hand if I summon something that has high AC/Damage reduction it shouldn't be hitting overly hard, forcing the master to take action to get through things. Or if it has say high damage and reduction, but poor AC it should have serous weaknesses to something to counter it.

A pet that is ranged or cast spells should be very squishy.

ETC.

Right now in the land of planer Conduit we have pets that have huge DR, AC, AB, Damage, regen and there is 2 of them.

That is to say I don't mind the idea of general pets that fill all the roles either, a happy middle ground or hell, even a support roll dropping buffs/debuffs, but there are some summons that are just so powerful the caster who summoned them it just along for the ride.

[Naghast]

Hey there, summoner talking.

With enough summon cheese i can solo almost the entire server.

Conduit has way too much damage.
Monolith has, imo, a-okay damage and enough ab to not be ignored, but some ppl are annoyed at this too.
Undead, no strong opinion.

Sequencers contribute to summons being powerful, since previously, pve summons had 0 sr. So they were one wof away from being gone, unless fighting a cleric.
Now everyone gets a summon with 42 sr.

Do what y'all will with this information.

[Helsing]

Hey there, summoner talking.

With enough summon cheese i can solo almost the entire server.

Conduit has way too much damage.
Monolith has, imo, a-okay damage and enough ab to not be ignored, but some ppl are annoyed at this too.
Undead, no strong opinion.

Sequencers contribute to summons being powerful, since previously, pve summons had 0 sr. So they were one wof away from being gone, unless fighting a cleric.
Now everyone gets a summon with 42 sr.

Do what y'all will with this information.

Undead stream is as strong as Outsider stream stats wise. Mummy Dust is competitive with Conduit because not only undead is damn good, but it also increase all your undead summons quality (it rises your UCL so all undead spells summons better tier).

Not to mention some combos like, unlimited circle of doom which can heal your undeads and harm enemies on undying warlock.

[-XXX-]

With enough summon cheese i can solo almost the entire server.

It was possible to do that even before the conduit - even without using the pre-nerf EDK.
With good gear non-summoner builds can do that too.

Conduit has way too much damage.

Lower its damage output and it'll get ignored in PvP.

Monolith has, imo, a-okay damage and enough ab to not be ignored, but some ppl are annoyed at this too.

Monolith is what most non-summoner players would want the conduit to be - virtually immortal in PvE, but pillow-fisted enough to be ignored in PvP for the duration needed to kill the summonner.

Undead, no strong opinion.

IMO the better streams are pretty much are on par with the conduit right now. Can even get native undispellable SR from from the necro specialist.

Sequencers contribute to summons being powerful, since previously, pve summons had 0 sr. So they were one wof away from being gone, unless fighting a cleric.
Now everyone gets a summon with 42 sr.

Before the sequencers, clerics could buff their summons MUCH more. The sequencers merely reined in what's possible to do with the summons and streamlined it across all the summonning classes. The SR has always been a part of the equation - it's annoying, but not unbeatable.
Furthermore, the SR granting greater sequencers are prohibitively expensive / limited supply - it's very unlikely to just randomly run into a summonner with SR on their summons.

[Naghast]

I don't think around 40-50 damage per hit with over 50 ab is pillow-fisted but alrighty.

[-XXX-]

I don't think around 40-50 damage per hit with over 50 ab is pillow-fisted but alrighty.

It is when you have 600+ hp
The monolith does not have 50AB

[Naghast]

Maybe on your character it doesn't.

But, admittedly, i minmaxed my summoner for as much summon stats as i can pump out. Sooo... Yea.

[-XXX-]

Maybe on your character it doesn't.

Random +3 AB coming from nowhere strikes once again.

Even then, the dps won't distract a melee character from going straight for the spellcaster.
You posted a combat log with a string of crits, but the monolith has 19-20 crit range, so yeah - even with high AB it deals ~50 damage on average (other streams even less). That's nothing to write home about.

[Naghast]

I chose this screenshot because it shows both crit damage and non-crit damage and ab but okay.
And i was playing an ench spec wizard with esf trans and conj. And empower spell. Try it.

[Svrtr]

Not to mention both of the formians are 19-20 x3 crits and crits for 3d8+6d12+6d10+30 while still having their regen and immunities and even higher AB when spec'd for it, plus on top yet still with mass zoo spells and sequencers and RELIABLE mass haste (where most every mundane won't have reliable or long lasting haste) and innate regen and ench good hope?

Planar conduit can be tankier than a player, more health than a player, and for how much damage it does it either is far far more durable than a mundane of comparable damage, or has insanely more damage than a comparably tanky mundane, plus often it can reach higher AB

[Tarkus the dog]

i like summons where they are it gives me a challenge versus mages in pvp

[-XXX-]

I chose this screenshot because it shows both crit damage and non-crit damage and ab but okay.
And i was playing an ench spec wizard with esf trans and conj. And empower spell. Try it.

I know how you got the numbers - and yes, they do require a minor buildaround.
The idea here is that the dps from the summon even when combined with any potential biteback from damage shields does the beatstick less harm than the spells the mage could have cast during the time they'd be given had the beatstick been messing with WoF scrolls instead.
As such the monolith is a poor deterrent against the melee charging straight for the spellcaster while ignoring the summon and IKDing them to oblivion.

[Helsing]

Maybe on your character it doesn't.

But, admittedly, i minmaxed my summoner for as much summon stats as i can pump out. Sooo... Yea.

Also don't forget Monolith Water has 10 regen itself and 10 regen aura, so it has 20 regen itself and the aura has pretty big range. The utility it provides is tremendous.

Monolith Air, easy to reach 70+ ac and epic dodge, it may probably be able to tank Paush.

These summons are pretty OP in PvE. But they are still treated as shit by somebody because the only thing they care is PvP and only thing they'd say wof clears every summons

[Biolab00]

I've always considered Summons' subject as something that's comparable to properties investment, that any changes that's slightly "big" will simply shake the whole country or in this case, Arelith.

This is because Summons had been, since for as long as i've been in this server, the only method and the only feasible method in fact, for caster classes to excel in PVE.

Remember when buffing on your own summons are not longer possible but instead, replaced with sequencer?
For me, this is something very minor. An extremely minor change that simply causes inconveniences but that alone, shake up Arelith's community.

As a matter of fact, it's not exactly just about PVP.
Similar with casters with these summons, Martial characters too, can solo epic dungeon.
It's not just a matter of builds but also the playstyle ( it matters ).

Perhaps i am wrong but, i believe that even if there's any tweak to these summons, it will not change the fact that they can still and will continue to be powerful. And it's not a bad thing because every PC should be able to enjoy most content that Arelith offers.

[Kalthariam]

As a healer cleric who can't even cast regenerate on my Summons anymore...

My summons are straight up garbage post Sequencer updates.

Congratulations to all the arcane classes that can bypass the "Your not allow to buff your summons" through mass wardings.

I don't have those, and I don't get to stack them ontop of sequencers, so guess what? My summons suck, and require immense amounts of baby sitting to get through every encounter they ever get into. If I wasn't given infinite cure moderate wounds stacking it at auto empowered and auto maximized then they'd die to a standard bad spawn. (And they still do manage to die all the time from being turned, from being just bursted down due to having no SR and low AC, or just being outright dismissed because random banishment spell just deletes them, so much fun)

I'm sure Warlocks running around spamming massive AoE spells mass summoning mobs and never running out of any offensive options don't run into many problems (Most of you are rocking undead, no conduits, and get to get mass warding and standard AOE undead buffs, and can repeatedly summon them! Not just a once a day thing, some warlocks don't even sequence their mobs because they can just STRAIGHT UP BUFF THEIR UNDEAD AS IF NOTHING CHANGED AND DON'T NEED TO CARE, MUST BE NICE). I'm sure wizards whom can sequencer their summons then mass buff them to make them even more powerful are finding tons of success with summons because they are bypassing the rules that everyone else has to follow.

Me as a healer cleric? Neat, I get to cast bless (You know, the rounds per level spell now) after using a sequencer! I can't even cast regenerate on my summons, so I'm either stuck taking domains that make zero sense (I thought giving clerics the haste spell was so they didn't get shoe horned into taking specific domains to be remotely optimal?) to get what? maybe Two mass zoo buffs? Or I get to just only be stuck using sequencers and having no other buffs I am able to cast on my summons because all of my buffs are single target except bless and prayer.

I also now have to choose between a Druidic Sequencer if I want a semi-defensive option with some damage, a Arcane Sequencer if I am needing concealment, or a divine one, if I'm worried about them being dismissed! but guess what? other classes basically get the effects of Two at any time, because they can just cover the buffs that are missing through mass wards! They don't need druidic sequencers for Str Dex and such, they just mass ward and then pick between Concealment or Spell resistance. how nice for them. (Undead also still getting all their specific undead buffs ontop of being mass wardable, AND sequenced is also super fun with all those ridiculous new streams and buffed mobs)

But sure, nerf the summons again because SOME classes can still make them stupidly broken (Again because they get to ignore the rules that everyone else is forced to abide by), lets just ignore the fact that if you just made it sequencers or nothing and made everything the same you'd find a drastic drop in usability and power summons had for various classes.

The power summons have are NOT static across the board, because certain classes were given access to tools that bypass the rules everyone else has to abide by, which is absolutely stupid.

This entire post sequencer update has been BLATANTLY imbalanced, and now everyone's scrambling and demanding summons to be nerfed AGAIN, despite the fact it's not going to effect everyone evenly, and I think that's absolutely ridiculous.

[Naghast]

Well, if i was to use only sequencer and circles vs alignment on my summon, it'd be SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER

And yes, cleric summoners are left in the dumpster. Even with "correct domains", they're straight up worse.

[Naghast]

Maybe on your character it doesn't.

But, admittedly, i minmaxed my summoner for as much summon stats as i can pump out. Sooo... Yea.

Also don't forget Monolith Water has 10 regen itself and 10 regen aura, so it has 20 regen itself and the aura has pretty big range. The utility it provides is tremendous.

Monolith Air, easy to reach 70+ ac and epic dodge, it may probably be able to tank Paush.

These summons are pretty OP in PvE. But they are still treated as shit by somebody because the only thing they care is PvP and only thing they'd say wof clears every summons

As for this
Water monolith also has much less ab, less ac, and less damage, than fire monolith.
It does not break 50, even on a setup that maximizes summon stats.

[Naghast]

And just for the sake of avoiding misunderstandings, i should say that

The stats i presented are literally the best case scenario for summon strength.

Enchantment specialist wizard for good hope's +2 ab/damage
Mass haste
Lesser arcane sequencer for best ac gain from sequencer.
Esf conj on a monolith
empowered ESF trans mass zoo buffs combined with aura of vitality coming from a standard bearer spear (so, +12 to all physical stats)
Circles of alignment, of course

The only 2 other things i could've done to get more stats would be to use my lvl 3 bardsong (+1 ab for 10 rounds) and bless from scabbard of blessing (+1 ab for 2 rounds) but that's cheesy.

So yea.
Look at it's stats through the lens of literally running a min-maxed DEDICATED SUMMONER.

And i'm fairly certain that a cleric, no matter what domain combo they're running, will not get even remotely close.

[Richrd]

This is heavy summoner cope.

A summon should never be this strong. People seem to forget that there is still a mage behind that fat summon, ready and willing to ruin somebody's life with all the other magic they got. We aren't talking about shapeshifting here, this is literally just a +1 in body counts. And a fat body at that I might say, considering these stats.

If summons functioned differently, like requiring a channeled ritual or if they disabled the use of any other magic while they are out, I'd not say all this. But again, as it currently stands you got a big ol' beefy boy that you can buff up and then you are literally just another mage, ready to throw down in any showdown.

[Naghast]

With very limited spell ammo.

Look, from pvp perspective, i get it. It is a bonus body. You are still there. In PVP, having a high stat summon around while you throw dispels and shit is useful. Potent.

But PVE is an entirely different story, and THERE, these stats are a necessity
Bc if your summon is weak enough that you have to hard CC every group you fight, your lvl 30 god-mage is gonna run out of spellslots after one tenth of a lvl 16 dungeon.

Keep this in mind too.

[Helsing]

With very limited spell ammo.

Look, from pvp perspective, i get it. It is a bonus body. You are still there. In PVP, having a high stat summon around while you throw dispels and shit is useful. Potent.

But PVE is an entirely different story, and THERE, these stats are a necessity
Bc if your summon is weak enough that you have to hard CC every group you fight, your lvl 30 god-mage is gonna run out of spellslots after one tenth of a lvl 16 dungeon.

Keep this in mind too.

We have soulbound wands now, tier 3 wands with Confusion, Fear, Slow is pretty good and help casters with PvE, so I think their summons shall be tuned a bit as the ammo size is larger with the help of wands.

[Naghast]

I'd say the dc is not good enough for endgame content (late game mobs really have good saves) but if you say so.
Plus immunities. But you know. Stuff happens.

Buuut, like i saaaid, darkness cheese is a thing.
I can do it.
Not everyone else has access to it as easy as me. But i do.

But hey.

[Naghast]

Speaking of saves!

Full levels of low save progression: 11

6 geared unisaves
+4 unisaves from circles of good/evil, 10
+7 from spellcraft, 35 (33 + int mod)
+2 from good hope, 19
Gear 5 spellcraft and you hit 20.

Owl's wisdom to bring 8 base wis to 12 brings 11 base save to 12
That's... 32 will save.
I literally only used 1 spell with shorter duration than hours.
And that's like, lowest possible base willsave you can get. No feats, no anything.

Also normally you'd gear much more unisaves but i decided to go easy here on raw unisave gear.

[-XXX-]

Here's the average hasted damage per round for select summoning streams, max CL summoner ESF:conju/necro with empowered mass bull's strength and NE burst where applicable (no transmu focus as not everybody has that and I'm lazy):

Monolithic elementals:
Fire: 4d10+16+2d8fire (45) cr:19/x2 = 47.25 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 189.00
Vs AC54 : 50AB : 40.50/ 40.50/ 29.25/ 18.00 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 128.25

Earth 4d8+25 (43) cr:19/x2 = 45.15 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 180.06
Vs AC54 : 50AB : 38.70/ 38.70/ 27.95/ 17.20 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 122.55

Water 4d8+21 (39) cr:19/x2 = 40.95 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 163.80
Vs AC54 : 50AB : 35.10/ 35.10/ 25.35/ 15.60 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 111.15

Air: 4d6+12 (26) cr:20/x2 = 26.00| Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 104.00
Vs AC54 : 50AB : 23.40/ 23.40/ 16.90/ 10.40 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 74.10


Conduit:
Ants: Princess 1d6+38+2d12acid (55) cr:19/x3 = 63.25 | Myrmarch 2d12+1d10+24+1d10acid (48) cr:20/x3 = 50.4 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 517.85
Vs AC54 : Princess 46AB : 52.70 / 52.70/ 37.20/ 21.70/ 9.30 | Myrmarch 44AB : 30.00/ 30.00/ 17.50/ 7.50 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 258.60

Celestials: Word 1d12+42+2d12div (61.5) cr:17/x2 = 70.72 | Warden 1d12+21+2d10+2d12div (51.5) cr:20/x3 = 54.07 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 569.88
Vs AC54 : Word Archon 46AB : 52.27 / 52.27/ 33.82/ 12.30/ 6.15 | Warden Archon 44AB : 30.90/ 30.90/ 18.02/ 7.72 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 244.35

Eldarin: Shiradi 2d6+43+2d12div (63.0) cr:17/x2 = 72.45 | Ghaele 1d8+17+2d12+2d12div (47.5) cr:19/x2 = 49.87 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 561.73
Vs AC54 : Shiradi 46AB : 53.55 / 53.55/ 34.65/ 12.60/ 6.30 | Ghaele 44AB : 28.50/ 28.50/ 16.62/ 4.75 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 226.42

Slaadi: White 7d10+21+1d12acid (72.5) cr:20/x2 = 72.5 | Grey 6d10+20 (53) cr:20/x2 = 53.00 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 574.50
Vs AC54 : White 45AB : 43.50/ 43.50/ 25.37/ 10.87/ 7.25 | Grey 40AB : 21.20/ 21.20/ 7.95/ 5.30 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 186.14


Dust:
Skeletons: Lord 2d4+3d8+24 (42.5) cr:15/x2 = 51.00 | Champ 3d4+3d6+24 (35) cr:20/x3 = 36.75 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 483.75
Vs AC54 : Lord 43AB : 35.70/ 35.70/ 20.40 | Champ 41AB : 20.21/ 20.21/ 11,02| Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 249.30

Wight: Frosty 1d8+4d10+26+7cold+3neg (62.5) cr:19/x2 = 65.62 | Curst Lord 1d8+24+4d8+5cold (51.5) cr:19/x2 = 54.07 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 478.76
Vs AC54 : Frosty 43AB : 37.50/ 37.50/ 21.87/ 6.25| Curst Lord 42AB : 28.32/ 28.32/ 12.87/ 5.15 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 177.74


EDK:
Gold: 1d8+32 (36.5) cr:16/x3 = 58.40 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 292.00
Vs AC54 : 48AB : 45.62/ 45.62/ 36.50/ 27.37/ 5.47 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 160.58

Dracolich: 4d6 +30 (45.0) cr:16/x3 = 65.25 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 326,25
Vs AC54 : 46AB : 54.00/ 54.00/ 47.25/ 13.50/ 6.75 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 175.50





With -prays most melee builds have ~1100 hp pool to fall back on, so ignoring the summons and charging straight for the spellcaster would still be a viable strategy even if it took 4 full rounds of swinging to kill the spellcaster.

-----
The numbers are slightly off and actually lower as they do not take crit confirmation rolls into account.
Edit: added EDK
Edit: added Celestials and Eldarin