Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

[Distant Relation]

This is tantamount to calling me a liar. My personal experience is not 'patently false'.

Liar by omission. You don't know what DMs are doing behind the scenes on each and every report. The fact that you'll sit there championing "reporting them don't make it better" because it does nothing is the fallacy I'm calling out. Report infractions as you see them and allow the DMs to settle the dispute. You might not have the right perspective when it comes to an infraction, and might actually believe something is a rulebreak when it is not. The DMs are impartial arbiters and they do a better job of judging scenarios than anyone in the midst of the conflict.

And honestly, yes, reading back, I do get the impression you are defending 'one line RP position'. If so many of us are getting that impression, perhaps there is room for improvement in the signal-to-noise of some of the things being repeated.

I already objected to my position being used for one-line roleplay. I've never done that sort of roleplay, and if you care to look back at any of my posts I've never defended lazy roleplay. The only signal-to-noise that's echoing from the individuals engaged in bad faith discussions is that they can't stand to be forced into roleplay.

That's not what liar by omission means.

Liar by omission implies I know something but am omitting it (not mentioning it) to 'lie' without lying.

I'm going to drop this because at this point we're just pin balling to no effect.

[Xerah]

It’s interesting that people talk about how prevalent one line kill bash PVP is but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it (even when an innocent bystander). It blows my mind that someone could consider this the “majority of encounters” and makes me think they are playing a different server.

[Morgy]

I think now it’s reaching the point of people calling each other liars and suggesting they are not even playing the same server, this discussion is at a disappointing low and should just be locked.

[Ork]

It's unfortunate that we have bad faith arguers hijacking a thread that legitimately has merit. It's a reason why most antagonists burn out on this server because despite the roleplay they put in, what they receive is only appreciated after it is gone.

[Kreindis]

I'm going to pull the 'veterancy' card and say I've played off and on since 2008. If we're talking about PvP where there was a lead-up that led into a fight, the only time I have not seen one line kill bashing is mass PvP raids. In fact I think mass PvP raids are really fun because there is no deliberating about underlying intent, you just fight. And ultimately, you don't care about what happened because none of that has a lasting effect anyway.

Every other small encounter has usually been one side threatening another, and a fight shortly occurs afterwards or everyone disperses. I've had 3 instances of one line kill bashing in the past 3 months. Do I consider this prevalent? Not really. But you gotta understand that when every PvP case is just a slightly different version of the same thing, it loses its mystery and it just becomes more of an inconvenient gank than something meaningful.

Since 2008, I have engaged with 3 antagonists that I would do conflict with again. 2 of them utilized tells to get consent (Pretty sure at least one of them is in this thread). Every other case is a cleverly disguised wild west quick draw simulator.

[Captain_Siix]

I didn't read most of this thread bc it's got a ton of replies. I want to just say that antagonists burn bright and burn quick. Jhaamy is my most memorable antagonist to me because I had a ton of personal conflict. Eventually there was another mutual enemy which led us to become frenimies. That relationship development was the only real enemy to friend I think I've had on this server. I think we need more antagonists to have this kind of rp and development.

[Watchful Glare]

It’s interesting that people talk about how prevalent one line kill bash PVP is but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it (even when an innocent bystander). It blows my mind that someone could consider this the “majority of encounters” and makes me think they are playing a different server.

I've seen it. I've seen both mind you, both good stand offs where two characters argue their points and then emote getting ready for battle and the other members of their respective groups watch them duel one on one under the rain. And it was very fun, memorable. And I would look forward to losing a fight against those players any day.

And I've also seen

Player 1: "Leave."
Player 2: "Very well young man. I have to say this is rather-"
Player 1 flips hostile and whirlwind attacks Player 2, prompting them to press enter and send in unfinished emote
Instant bashing the corpse afterwards.
Cue being told off game how the Player of the bashed character arguably did super shitty things (either on his character, or previous ones) and therefore had it coming.

It's common in these threads to see players throwing smokescreens to hide or derail discussion that brings attention to the second cases, particularly when it always comes from the same individuals.

It's not a plague of everyone 1 lining everyone else, not at all. I find it always happens in a minority- Albeit a relevant one. But all it takes is a group doing it to sour the experience. I think Skibble's post has been the best so far.

So... maybe a hot take, but here it is:

If you experience people frequently running from your roleplay, maybe the problem is you.

Examine what you're doing that makes people prefer to break character, and maybe the rules, to get away from what you're offering as fast as they possibly can.

If you're fun to play with - literally nobody runs from you. Ever. They may even run towards you, eager to be cut down, just so they can roleplay with you more. I can think of many players that I would die (literally) to have a storyline with if that is the direction things went. Are you one of those players? Why, or why not?

PVP was used to make some of the best and most memorable storylines I've ever had. Defeats, specifically.

However, and this is a big one, PVP is also very frequently used, usually as a crutch for a total lack of creativity (or worse), by people that just haven't been banned yet. Such players leave a lot of damage in their wake, sometimes numbering in the dozens or even hundreds of negative experiences, and that damage can sometimes never go away; the same way that once trust is broken it is near impossible to repair.

Players that have been on the receiving end of such players are sure to have lost trust in the PVP system as it stands, and I can hardly blame them in some of these cases.

On Competition Undertones:

Arelith is more finely and fastidiously balanced for PVP than most AAA+ multi-million dollar exclusively pvp-oriented games.

I think it is disingenuous to dismiss Arelith as not having competitive, and sometimes extremely competitive, undertones.

If you enter into high profile politics your roleplay is not merely dictated by roleplay, but on the power of you and your friends and their ability to protect that roleplay since Arelith's politics and Highlander's immortal catchphrase are very similar. The preservation of which relies almost exclusively on current metas, player skill, weight of numbers, and maybe most importantly - player eagerness to be the first to engage in PVP.

Almost none of those things are strictly roleplay, though weight of numbers does naturally come with being very fun to play with, but the majority of the time the loser of any conflict is, for all intents and purposes, deleted. How is this not competitive in some manner or another?

I have mostly mixed feelings on the nature of competition on Arelith, some good and bad, but I as I said earlier it seems odd to me to claim it isn't there at all. We can debate the metrics of it, I think, but surely we can all agree it is there at least.

And I find it to be true.

[Ork]

It's common in these threads to see players throwing smokescreens to hide or derail discussion that brings attention to the second cases, particularly when it always comes from the same individuals.

Except, that is not what this topic is about. If you'd like to make a topic about one-line PvP, please do. I understand how there is an adjacency between how a player reacts to conflict and the prevalence of one-line shotgun PvP, but I've only been one-line PvP'd once in my I don't know 17 years playing Arelith.

What I hope this topic was going to discuss was the prevalence of stonewalling. It happens frequently. I was told through discord someone wouldn't roleplay with my character because I "liked PvP" when in truth I rarely win any PvP nor go out of my way to institate them. In fact, I've only lost my most recent scenes that turned to PvP.

What is occurring is you've these private discords smearing your character for benign actions and suddenly you've swaths of people avoiding you and stonewalling your roleplay attempts. I've seen it happen, it happened to me, it doesn't leave a good feeling in your gut and it's anti-roleplay.

[ClockworkRed]

I also experienced this on several occasions. When I was part of a faction, there were often some other factions/players, that one should avoid contact. Usually when I asked why, there was some reputation the player/faction had due to some story of the past, which might even have been many years back, which let you wonder "Why this is still a thing?". When ignored it was always that those players/factions were great to rp with. I think people need to reevaluate their opinion on players here and there.

Additionally, often I hear from others that they avoid PvP/conflict because it is just not fun and I must say I partly agree with this. While the server is really well designed and lots of fun to play on, the PvP/conflict setup could be improved in my eyes. You become more careful, when some random PvP is taken as an invite to start a conflict story that is very often decided by OOC coordination combined with weaponizing scry/portals/player lists and wake up of some high level PCs that vanish again as soon as the conflict is over.

Of course, that's what the server is, and then it might might not be fair to say I opt out of this part. I just think even then, these players make the server more lively and it would be a pity to loose them. They are usally also not "bad rplers" as this thread somehow implies, but often contribute very interesting PCs to interact with.

[Griefmaker]

So... maybe a hot take, but here it is:

If you experience people frequently running from your roleplay, maybe the problem is you.

Examine what you're doing that makes people prefer to break character, and maybe the rules, to get away from what you're offering as fast as they possibly can.

If you're fun to play with - literally nobody runs from you. Ever. They may even run towards you, eager to be cut down, just so they can roleplay with you more. I can think of many players that I would die (literally) to have a storyline with if that is the direction things went. Are you one of those players? Why, or why not?

So pages and pages of circular comments, accusations, etc. and this is still really the key takeaway EVERYONE should be focusing on.

The DMs, admin, server owners for the last 15+ years I have been on Arelith have always stated that you cannot control another's RP, you can only only control your own.

The issues I have seen in this thread is that one side is not able to control the narrative. It is true. It does not matter if you are the antagonist or protagonist. I have tried that in the past as well and found that all it leads to is frustration and irritation and finally jaded mistrust of the playerbase.

RP is not about a narrative, it is about a collaborative story. But a person cannot force collaboration, they can only encourage it. If attempts at encouragement are not successful, then perhaps a better way to foster that collaboration needs to be examined.

So what is the solution? Introspection. What Skibbles said is spot on and so few have mentioned it, much less addressed it because it is the hard answer. The easier answer is to blame everyone else for not conforming.

[Ork]

Griefmaker, once again thrusting the blame on antagonists like they're some homonogized group is not what this thread is about. Recognizing that you can't control anyone's roleplay is the first step towards sanity on Arelith, but that doesn't mean that we can't admonish players that choose to stonewall in the face of roleplay.

I agree with the introspection part. Players that propagate rumor, stir narratives within their private discords, and advocate avoiding/ignoring acts, consequence and characters should take a good look at why they're here and what possible harm they commit in refusing to engage in a story when it is forced upon them.

What is wild to me is that we'll sit here and ridicule conflict-oriented characters but seem totally fine in letting roleplay-ignorers have their safe little section of the server.

[Griefmaker]

Griefmaker, once again thrusting the blame on antagonists like they're some homonogized group is not what this thread is about. Recognizing that you can't control anyone's roleplay is the first step towards sanity on Arelith, but that doesn't mean that we can't admonish players that choose to stonewall in the face of roleplay.

I agree with the introspection part. Players that propagate rumor, stir narratives within their private discords, and advocate avoiding/ignoring acts, consequence and characters should take a good look at why they're here and what possible harm they commit in refusing to engage in a story when it is forced upon them.

What is wild to me is that we'll sit here and ridicule conflict-oriented characters but seem totally fine in letting roleplay-ignorers have their safe little section of the server.

I can definitely respect what is written here.

Addressing those who stonewall RP when it is forced upon them, I agree that simply ignoring it really is crap.

The best way I have found to combat this myself when I play an antagonist is to always weave in an "out" for the other character (more for the player reading the line) in the very first moment of hostilities.

"Forcing" someone into a corner, even if it is expected to have a disconnect between player and character, I believe is what leads to a lot of these scenarios. I have found that if the other player realizes they have a choice, then they are more likely to respond to the RP, even if they know they will lose. Or if they play the cowardly/not suicidal character like some I have done, they look for a way out...via RP. Not just lens and poof.

Obviously, if you are interacting with a player you know and who understands fully hostile nitty-gritty RP, you do not need the kiddie gloves. But when I play the antagonist, I have found the greatest success in reciprocal RP has come when my RP is initiated so that it is very clear there is a choice...to the player. And if the player still chooses to stonewall, unfortunately there is not much that can be done except report it.

Some players just refuse to lose which is just silly, but whatever. Again it goes back to the whole "you cannot control another's RP". Fortunately, there are always others more than willing to engage in collaborative stuff, assuming it is give and take and not just one or the other.

As an amusing aside, I began to approach antagonist RP with others the way I interacted with my kids when they were younger and I was trying to get them to do something. My wife is a child development specialist and she said that many people are hardwired from a young age to ignore "Do something this way because I want it".

She taught me that if you give a choice, even if both choices are less than desirable for the one being given the choice, they will often acquiesce or even embrace one of the choices...sometimes leading to very positive results.

It is not a foolproof way to do things, since there really are a lot of players that "must win" and cannot accept the fact that the antagonist might defeat them, but it is another tool in your arsenal to try and get a collaborative story going!

**edit...apparently I fat fingered "sexy elven fun times" instead of RP heh. Oops!

[Llopast]

What is wild to me is that we'll sit here and ridicule conflict-oriented characters but seem totally fine in letting roleplay-ignorers have their safe little section of the server.

The main problem I see here is that there is no proper "Code of PvP-conduct" with examples*, punishments and rewards** described. So people currently have no real motivation to follow potentially stressful RP in a video game they play for fun after a full day of work/ school/ university/ house chores, etc. This is why we still sit here and theoritize. Perhaps, a dedicated person could compile all what was written in this thread into a "Make PvP Funny Again" instruction to submit to the Team?

IMHO, the only real way to fix (any) bad RP behaviour is to make examples out of ourselves. So that if we meet a bad RP-ier, we still RP our best, and then politely and patiently explain OOC where the player could do better next time. Even if you personally do not meet them anymore, you made what was in your power to make a difference. And yes, if you hit the wall OOC as well, it is then time to bother DMs.

• The only few good PVP-strategies I recall are described in the assassin article on the wiki.
  ** RPR does not count as it is hidden from the public (you cannot flex with it) and basically gives nothing unless you have high-tier awards. Is it finally the time to establish the "Villain of the Year" award?

[Shadowy Reality]

Some players just refuse to lose which is just silly, but whatever. Again it goes back to the whole "you cannot control another's RP". Fortunately, there are always others more than willing to engage in collaborative stuff, assuming it is give and take and not just one or the other.

I agree with most things you said, what you describe are very good approaches to dealing with antagonism, no matter which side you are on. But this quote is where I and others disagree.

I can't force them to interact with me or others, but I sure can criticise those that do that, which is what this thread is about. This is a roleplay server, you have to roleplay, and that is mostly done through text.

Someone comes up to you and says it's a highway robbery. Without a word you run away and lens, you don't engage in this sort of antagonistic behaviour after all. Or maybe your character is a coward.

Someone comes up to you and asks why there are undead following you. Without a word you run away and lens, you don't engage in questions about undead. Or maybe your character doesn't want to stay for the hard questions ahead.

Someone comes up to you and asks you for help, their friend got beaten by a goblin. Without a word you run away and lens, you have no time for selflessness, there's EXP to be gained. Or maybe your character is selfish and self-centered.

Does it sound a bit ridiculous? That's because it is. It's fine if you don't OOCly like engaging in these, it's fine if your character doesn't ICly like engaging in these. But you can't ignore it. You have to react in some way, and running away without a word is nothing but dismissive.

[Ork]

As an amusing aside, I began to approach antagonist RP with others the way I interacted with my kids when they were younger and I was trying to get them to do something. My wife is a child development specialist and she said that many people are hardwired from a young age to ignore "Do something this way because I want it".

I agree with everything you've said, but the contention is here: I'm not asking for roleplay to go my way, or for characters to react a certain way or for every encounter I try to have become some stellar hours long roleplay.

I'm just asking for a reaction. For roleplay. The bare minimum of this server. If I have to choose between bad, awkward weird roleplay and no roleplay, I'll take what I can get. We play in a multiplayer environment and to deny that others can push ideas out into the world because you don't want to be bothered, or you don't like them OOC, or you heard bad thing about them on discord isn't something to be encouraged. And, I don't think you do that, mind. I just think we also need to hold up stonewallers to the same standard as we hold up pvp-hounds.

[Watchful Glare]

It's common in these threads to see players throwing smokescreens to hide or derail discussion that brings attention to the second cases, particularly when it always comes from the same individuals.

Except, that is not what this topic is about. If you'd like to make a topic about one-line PvP, please do.

That is an excellent point. If you'd like to make a topic about one-line PvP, please do. Arguing about it, while telling others not to respond to it can come off as disingenuous.

What is occurring is you've these private discords smearing your character for benign actions and suddenly you've swaths of people avoiding you and stonewalling your roleplay attempts. I've seen it happen, it happened to me, it doesn't leave a good feeling in your gut and it's anti-roleplay.

What is occurring is what no less than five people in this thread have said has occurred. Do not discount their experiences as lies, or dismiss them as irrelevant. If they are bringing it up, there's a reason for it. I don't know why you should feel particularly targeted by them bringing it up.

That said, I've seen the Discord effect happen, and I know it's real. You have my sympathy on that and I do hope it gets better. I've certainly experienced it myself. I've seen such slander it used to justify the worst cases of groups of players trying to chase others off the server based on lies they told themselves in order to justify the things they did to them IG. Fulfilling only the bare minimum requirement to make a case in front of a DM if asked, treating the rules as a wire fence, and then dog piling them if they brought it up. Up to and including through these boards with the 'nope, never happened, not talking about it'.

An element like that can always leave a sour taste in the community.

I would recommend if you are experiencing someone ignoring your RP due to benign actions on your part, you contact them OOCly and try to talk to them, let them know you mean no harm. Explain the motivations of your character, what would be a good idea to reach a compromise with them. My experiences have been varied. I contacted someone once when I foresaw bitterness in the future of antagonism, to have a talk about what each wanted of the interaction and communicate how to best proceed forward, since they came off as rather vitriolic in-game. The person in question told me that they didn't belong to said faction at all and didn't play that character.

Later here not only they admitted to playing it, but also went on a rant about how they never did anything wrong and they always reached out OOCly to the people they played against to make sure they were alright and talk things out, and this is all a smear campaign against them. Which is an outright lie. I did reach out to them OOCly. And they lied to me. That doesn't leave a good feeling in your gut, and it's anti-roleplay. Dealing with bad faith actors leaves you jaded in ways few other things can match as far as the game goes. And when it's a group of them supporting each other whether through genuine ignorance of it or simply not caring (Or worse, sharing in the view that it's justified because they're doing it to X and we've all in this group said X is a terrible person, so who cares), that lingering bitterness spreads.

I don't think this is common. But once is enough.

On the other hand I've had talks like that go well when meeting someone's antagonism. I've gotted jumped once on a character and floored. This wasn't a one-line or anything, it got at least two , but it was done in a novel fashion. The player intended for theirs to just kill mine, bash it and be done with it. Get the head to show "Hey I killed so and so, see they're not so bad" to another. I mentioned in Tells I'm always down for capture RP and I'd RP it out with them if they want, probably would make for a better scene. They agreed, so we did just that, it involved others and it was a great scene that connected several characters. Then we talked some more. That was my first interaction with that character.

Another situation I figured I'd have a duel with someone and they just chugged a truestrike out of the gate, purge invisibility already on, and came for the good ol' whirlwind attack before anything is said. When they got my character I asked them if I should expect RP out of it, maybe there was something else coming. They said no. I asked about the body, thinking maybe someone could res it and we'd have some RP out of my character getting the snot beaten out of them. They didn't respond, as the body had been bashed immediately.

Nothing ever came out of it.

That was my first interaction with that character.

Out of these two, who would someone be looking forward to interacting with most, when it comes to hostility and RP? Imagine now, this is a frequent pattern across time.

So... maybe a hot take, but here it is:

If you experience people frequently running from your roleplay, maybe the problem is you.

Examine what you're doing that makes people prefer to break character, and maybe the rules, to get away from what you're offering as fast as they possibly can.

If you're fun to play with - literally nobody runs from you. Ever. They may even run towards you, eager to be cut down, just so they can roleplay with you more. I can think of many players that I would die (literally) to have a storyline with if that is the direction things went. Are you one of those players? Why, or why not?

Mind you, I don't ignore the second player. I've had several interactions with them since. I don't ignore their RP. But out of the two, one was more engaging than the other.

That leads me to something that is very important in dealing with baggage. Specially in a longstanding community.

Anonymity.

I don't know who 99.9% of the community plays unless they have a very recognisable stlye of play and they do it over and over and over despite changing their usernames. I've seen players want to remain anonymous as they play their characters and I find it's the best thing to do, as whatever OOC footprint that you have, whether good or bad, will follow you around once you are known. You make yourself vulnerable to "Man, that ork guy? What a dork he once shot my dog and kicked my daughter into outter space, just avoid him". And you yourself become vulnerable to "Watching Glare, I can't stand this guy, I bet they like pineapple on their pizza too. They once X."

Being anonymous is the only way to have individuals treat your character tabula rasa. With no pre-conceived notions, no prejudice stemming from OOC and their thoughts of you (and if they've never interacted with you, these thoughts of you can only come from either their friends or your own words).

Having an OOC presence tied to the character you play, adversely affects your RP experience and the quality of it. Unless you use the username Ork or play the same style of characters over and over I don't imagine how vast swathes of people could recognise you in order to avoid you or stonewall your RP attempts. If it's the latter, it is worth examining further.

If you're anonymous or keeping a low profile on the identification front, and the same happens, it takes us back to Skibs:

So... maybe a hot take, but here it is:

If you experience people frequently running from your roleplay, maybe the problem is you.

Examine what you're doing that makes people prefer to break character, and maybe the rules, to get away from what you're offering as fast as they possibly can.

If you're fun to play with - literally nobody runs from you. Ever. They may even run towards you, eager to be cut down, just so they can roleplay with you more. I can think of many players that I would die (literally) to have a storyline with if that is the direction things went. Are you one of those players? Why, or why not?

I have seen characters get floored and flat out pretend it never happened, it didn't have any consequences. Some don't lens out and avoid RP. They just respawn and continue as if nothing (They respect the 48hs rule, but otherwise no discernible change in attitude). Character will be threatened and they cannot be bothered to run away, even if informed of their impending death. They'll just chug a whisky and talk like they have some kind of moral high ground down to the moment they're killed. And it's very annoying to deal with. But I've only seen that happen maybe twice now. Or thrice.

This is reportable, but I would say only insofar as they don't roleplay any fear of clearly impending death, they don't try to bargain for it or offer something for it. "Let me live, I have useful information I can give you", "Please don't, I have a family", etc. Whichever spin you want to give it.

With that being taken care of, the only way someone will buy into your narrative is if it's appealing to them in anyway.

[Edens_Fall]

I think there's basically two ways to play Arelith which is either a life sim or as a survival game, both with RPG elements. Until there is there is a statement from up on high that one of these play styles is more valid than the other, these two will always co-exist and will always conflict.

This is perhaps one of the most enlightening sentences ever written in these forums.

Looking back, it really is clear to me now how a lot of the friction comes from some people wanting Arelith to be a Rust-like survival mmo while others want it to be a life sim to tell stories.

I'm in the latter camp. I appreciate pvp when it is infrequent and the culmination of a conflict, but the random ganking that I and others experience with startling frequency is more at home in WoW's War Mode or Albion Online's Black Zones.

I find absolutely absurd that pvp'ers are claiming to be entitled to roleplay from their prey, and that the very natural reaction of running away from something that looks like it might be dangerous is 'bad roleplay'. This is what happens in real life. How many of you have taken a different road, crossed the street or ducked into a shop for a bit when you see some suspicious folks loitering in your path?

What is more realistic? To seek some form of safety by the most expedient means possible, or to step towards the danger and go 'PAY ATTENTION, EVILDOERS, FOR I WILL BE RUNNING AWAY FROM YOU IN 5... 4.... 3...."

Yes, yes, "running away from pvp is consent to pvp". So is approaching the pvp. So is typing something. So is casting a spell. So is using an item. EVERYTHING is consent to pvp. Running away is the one thing that is both consent to pvp and results in a decent chance of survival for those who are caught unprepared.

The advantage is entirely on the side of the pvp players, who have builds designed by the discord hivemind, tested in the pgcc, rehearsed through duels, reinforced through months and years of ooc knowledge and practice. Is there really any need to not just kneecap any chance of escape or survival their prey might have, but to also claim the pvp predators are entitled to a rousing performance from their prey to keep them entertained?

You ask for roleplayers to treat death seriously, and not approach the world as if they could easily respawn and undo all impact of their death. The best way to treat death seriously is to value your life to the point where you don't want to lose it. To charge headlong into danger is the very definition of not taking death seriously.

Just want to point out how well written this is.

How many times have I walked into a hostile encounter only to freeze and wonder what to do next as any mechanical actions such as casting, running, moving, breathing, or not breathing is a "green means GO straight to PvP" signal. Thus why I have enjoyed the subdue opinion update as it at least gives an opinion to RP after the adrenaline and tension is burned off.

[TurningLeaf]

The one question I keep coming back to is, if my character runs away by me clicking mechanically, is there a parallel obligation to also emote running away in chat?

[Watchful Glare]

The one question I keep coming back to is, if my character runs away by me clicking mechanically, is there a parallel obligation to also emote running away in chat?

There is no obligation strictly speaking. Your character running away wordlessly however, fulfills the requirements for PvP as that is an interaction if the other person engages you with "Halt, your money or your life!" for instance, or "Drop your weapon and surrender!"

[Waldo52]

Consent is not a rule on this server but I think it should be. You don't make a good story by dragging in a random person off the street and give a pen. You instead find collaborative writers. Best way to do that is through Tells. If you antagonize random people, this is basically like ganking people in World of Warcraft.

There are still dozens of responses for me to read through, but I had to focus on this one part of your post. Only because I've never disagreed with any poster more about anything. Don't take that as an insult or a judgement, it just represents a sort of rift in the community that seems to be growing lately. There's been a post recently about a deny PVP option. This kind of talk is everywhere.

I actually like Arelith because it guarantees my characters an unsafe space. Much of it feels like the wild west. When I'm running for my life the adrenaline is real because I can't opt out of undesirable outcomes and I have no recourse to DM complaint if my opponent is following the rules. I've been robbed. I've been executed for my crimes. I've been beaten bloody for shouting insults.

I do feel like there's a lane in Neverwinter for things like no PvP or duel only PvP, no friendly fire on spells, etc. But I don't think Arelith ever was or will be that place.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

The last few tense moments I've experienced have all been very good. No cheesey barely anything rp then instant pvp bashing and no conditions tossed at you that sound like choices but really aren't. And I personally will gladly stick around, as long as I have time to spare, to see where things will go if the person is willing to make the encounter enjoyable. And lately that is what I have been experiencing.

I know there are people who have only seen the bad side, or even have just experienced it more than the good that it completely over shadows and wipes that memory. But things do not change if you don't just keep dusting yourself off and giving the other side a chance.

And as far as thought on being able to 'opt out' of pvp or similar? I think that would be horrible, never mind how much I absolutely hate pvp and am terrible at it. People have to expect consequences for their actions and if you take out that large factor, allow them to say no, you are basically opening things up to allow them to have everything one sided. How often, as an example, have we seen people stand in the middle of Cordor, mouthing off, bad talking guard and breaking laws then turn around and be upset that they are met with force? "Well, you could do something other than force." Yes, this is true, but please, we have all seen the person refuse to comply, refuse to leave, refuse to go along with the guard to talk out of sight and we have even all seen the people who will get subdued and lay on the ground a bloody pulp and still talk back and run at the mouth. Giving them a button that says they can't be touched will only make such things worse.

[AskRyze]

Since the topic has drifted in that direction... This is your best case scenario if we make pvp consent a thing.

Let's just not.

[Marsi]

In the 2010s I did a grand tour of NWN servers, and it’s always stuck with me how soulless and dead the “pvp consent” servers felt.

Players here enjoy the kind of “upward mobility” Arelith offers but then want it to freeze in place when they have it the way they want. On a low conflict server, you wouldn’t even have a chance to have cool stuff because the crystallised and unchangeable social order (adapted to wage war via ooc snark and drama) would ensure you remained totally alienated. You worry about some PvP bulldozer ruining what you have, but that same threat is the very dynamic that allowed you to claim cool things in the first place.

The best and worst thing about Arelith is that some nobody can permissionlessly ride out and topple stagnant hierarchies.

[Sundial]

A meagre tidbit of antagonist advice, from my own experience:

Try to make the PC you're conflicting with look cool. Simple as. An "out" is the bare minimum. Make them feel cool if they run, if they get the better of you, if you get the better of them. Reward them unconditionally.

[-XXX-]

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