Development Feedback

[Xerah]

Honestly, most developers would love to build these roleplay/conflict resolution tools. There’s a reason why those shackles got added.

The problem is that most of these things are either hard to identify or hard to script. They work far better when going lead by a DM (which most of the server seems to also dislike).

What’s much easier is to think how you can develop or rework something that either was a huge problem (I.e. monk) or underutilized (I.e. specialist wizard; regardless of how they are now) into that can create more RP options.

[AlonelyBard]

I've not really been playing Arelith as long as most people, honestly only about two or three years.
I do however, have a multitude of experience DMing tabletop games and often find myself looking at balance and mechanical changes from that lens.
Generally speaking, I think we've been seeing a overall modernization of classes, like the next subclasses systems with notable connections to 5e, while this can definitely help with creating a greater balance between classes when you're focusing on a player likely only taking a 3 level dip in a secondary class, which most times is truly the limit of multi-classing after a lot of these class changes, spellsword, paladin, and hexblade come to mind. I feel like we lose a major aspect of what made 3.x a unique system for character creation and development.
I may be the only one here on this, but I don't like playing builds that everyone else already does, I actively avoid weapons and builds that are, as I feel overly common. Sadly I feel like, most all of these more recent additions are sort of pidgeonholed into a single way of playing. If you wanted to be a Duergar Spellsword who knew his way around a marketplace and heavy armor you'd either lose out pretty massively by taking a 3 level dip on a class that already is pretty limited to feats and skills, or you'd just end up being the same spellsword as every other of your subclass.
All of this is to also say that, I feel like we've been massively overtuning content of late, every "balance pass" to dungeons, areas and even just specific enemies has me dreading what sort of obscene numbers I'll see. It feels like we're just in an arms race with the devs, and they're the only ones who dictate what sort of arms we have on our side as well. When you have enemies that have +30 ab at level 10, dispel spam, sneak attacks, knockdown and some sort of paralyzation, it forces players to work around these limits.
I personally have my issues with this development cycle in so far that it constantly feels like, if I want to level without being completely reliant on a group for every writ, I am forced to pick of a couple highly optimized builds, all of which are already extremely common on the server. I'm frankly tired of feeling like 90% of the content of the actual server never gets seen these days, unique areas, dungeons and weapons go unused because there's generally not a balance on what a character needs to put out and what they're rewarded with.
We saw Sibayad pretty much get left in the dust frankly, the writs there are not even worth it anymore as they give as much as level 5 writs, the content is far too difficult to balance out this, and that's not even going into the absolutely insane levels of tuning that the crypts below have seen, already they were the least run tomb, but I've not seen a single person running them since the mummies got buffed. I fell in love with this server because of the interesting roleplay developments, the idea that you're a small part of a bigger world of roleplaying and that you could make your niche as a character and a build.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I personally wish there was more focus on working on roleplay tools rather than classes (which seems to be what 80-90% of Arelith development is about). If the drive instead was to be working on conflict resolution tools, faction and settlement mechanics, player-given writs, so on...I guess what I personally want from development is new and improved ways to interact with my fellow players (that isn't bashing them on the head with a new combat ability). I know I'm only one "style" of player of the many that coexist on Arelith, but I'm less interested in classes and meta and number balancing and more into roleplay. It'd be nice to see roleplay-focused development happening, you know? Not to say it doesn't happen of course! Just that it feels like for every 'manacles' update, there are a hundred 'balancing pvp meta' updates.

A second, related thing:
New stuff is fun, but it can also be overwhelming. The actual nature of development changes aside, something I struggle with is the staggering pace of those changes.
An example: I looked through the Announcements thread on Arelith's Discord, and - not counting the April Fool's stuff or DM announcements - there were 58 development updates in March. In one month.

I've talked about this before and I remember getting the response from the admins that the devs are all volunteers doing stuff on their own time, picking whichever projects interest them, so stuff gets released as they finish it. That's totally fair. Makes sense. It's a double-bladed sword; inspiring that there are so many volunteer developers making neat things, but increasingly challenging to stay up to date (particularly as the wiki and other documentation sources aren't simultaneously updated) as the devs roll out so many changes.
To be honest the inundation has made me a bit apathetic. I've mostly given up on keeping up to date and just hope I don't get hit with breaking some new rule that was buried under 30 other announcements. Heck, if this is the normal pace of updates, maybe the 'announcements' and the 'developer updates' could be two different sections.

This is why I have largely tried to take my hands off of classes and started trying to add spell variety, and other non -mechanical things.

[magistrasa]

I personally wish there was more focus on working on roleplay tools rather than classes (which seems to be what 80-90% of Arelith development is about). If the drive instead was to be working on conflict resolution tools, faction and settlement mechanics, player-given writs, so on...I guess what I personally want from development is new and improved ways to interact with my fellow players (that isn't bashing them on the head with a new combat ability). I know I'm only one "style" of player of the many that coexist on Arelith, but I'm less interested in classes and meta and number balancing and more into roleplay. It'd be nice to see roleplay-focused development happening, you know?

I feel the same way in principle, but I have a different perspective in that I see class updates and rebalancing as roleplay updates - at least in cases where abilities are changed or added. Our roleplay is defined largely by the capabilities of our characters, so when those abilities are expanded upon or recontextualized by an update to class mechanics, it can really invigorate the identity of the class and character. Big changes to class mechanics generally excite me for that reason, and I get the most fun out of interrogating those mechanics from an in-character lens.

It's frustrating, however, when updates come along that are blatantly ambivalent or even contradictory towards the broader narrative context of the class or race or mechanics they're affecting. And that usually ties into some unintuitive "exception" that so often muddies and confuses a build. The number you see for your Lore skill on your character sheet doesn't always mean what you think it means, since some sources of Lore from spells or class bonuses just don't count for reading scrolls. You can't buff your summons through any means but a sequencer, whose name doesn't suggest much of anything about its usage or abilities (and after coming back from an extended hiatus I completely forgot what they were and found myself very confused by them). Feats and abilities have completely unintuitive descriptions with circular self-contradictory flavor text that ultimately doesn't convey any thematic context and also don't tell you the important details you really need to know, absent of even basics like a DC calculation (which, in some cases, you can't even find on the wiki).

The proposed monk update excites me, in spite of its rough edges, because I can recognize the inspiration behind the mechanics and I can see through its structure that it's really, genuinely trying to open up new roleplay opportunities for more character flavors. That's pretty cool! The most frustrating thing about classes like Hexblade and Spellsword and the vast majority of casters is that, as has been mentioned, there's really very little diversity in the builds if you want to actually be viable. And if you want to plant your roots in a character or story, you want to be confident that you can fairly withstand any tests against it.

I agree with the sentiment that balance is extremely important to maintain, but also equally important to shift around, because people will always naturally want to gravitate towards the "best" builds in the game. If the only way to win in PvP is to play a cleric, then you'll come to realize that everyone around you is playing a cleric. Even the people who have no sense for what it means to be a cleric within the narrative context of the world, someone who deep down really wanted to play a wizard, and because they know so much about wizardry, they ultimately play their cleric as if they were actually a wizard - and so their contribution to the collective clerical identity just muddies the waters. By balancing and unbalancing and rebalancing the established status quo, the developers carve out a space for new and underexplored narratives to rise to the surface. And what usually ends up happening as a result, as far as I've observed, is that players are happy to latch onto those opportunities and seek out those untold stories for all of us to enjoy. The difficulty in this effort is in not completely gutting the classes that came before and disenfranchising the roleplayers who have invested themselves into narratives that they can no longer defend - whether defending in a mechanical sense through the strength of their build, or in a roleplay sense through the abilities and intuitive connections that may suddenly no longer exist. Pray for Lorenzo during these trying times.

When I last left the server a few months ago (mostly due to personal reasons, not so much for any negative sentiment), I felt like the server's identity crisis, heightened by the discord echo chambers and the isolation enabled by the enormity of Arelith's world, had reached a fever pitch. No one can agree on what anything means, so does anything actually mean anything? If two people are reading two different stories out of the same book, how are we supposed to share our love for the experience with one another? I do believe the developers could do a lot more in giving guidance and direction to bring these disparate interpretations of reality more into alignment through their class and setting designs. Mechanical updates should not be treated as separate or distinct from roleplay updates. Classes should be shaped by vision, and I want to be able to understand that vision when I look at the class abilities and read its description. And if a developer lacks the vision to name and describe the narrative impact of their changes, I hope they feel comfortable enough to reach outside the development team and talk about their ideas with some of the phenomenal roleplayers within the community, who together might collaborate and improve upon their shared creative vision.

I've been out of the game for... What, like, half a year? And I've been back for a little over a week. So maybe some of what I'm saying is irrelevant to the current climate, which I'm still in the process of reacclimating to. But the perspective I share here has been built over a long period of time, so I'd be surprised if the slate had been wiped clean during my absence. Something my hiatus has given me, though, is a broadening of that perspective through distance. Some of the things that frustrated me in the past, I return to find a new appreciation for. And that happens pretty much any time I take a long break from the game. The time I don't spend roleplaying is the time in which I think I improve the most as a roleplayer. So, as annoying as it is to see in response to any complaints about the server, I feel compelled to reiterate the old adage: If you're unhappy, leave. Not forever, ideally! But I think it's something that more people should generally give strong consideration to, even the people who aren't unhappy. In fact, especially those people. If you're not at least a little frustrated at the server, you probably don't realize how much better things could be - how much better you could be - and that should worry you. Y'know, I actually think it would be best if Irongron just shut the server down for a month so we could all go outside and get some much needed fresh air. Maybe next time I'll come back without my slow-burning hatred for the Loremaster class (unlikely).

[vaclavc]

I highly appreciate the amount of development work being poured into Arelith, but I fully agree with what the OP, Marsi, Aradin and other posters in this thread wrote so well.
-V-

[dasdiddlydas]

I gotta agree with OP that it's a real pain to have to explore the Wiki over and over to look at constant changes to build -- and then refer to announcements -- if I want to understand why my build suddenly isn't possible anymore. I was building a Bard with a Guld start right before the Bard nerf and I haven't touched them ever since as I have no idea what to rebuild them into anymore.

[MissEvelyn]

New content and changes aren't bad - and I'm not suggesting anyone is necessarily saying that. But I absolutely understand where Aradin is coming from, and some of you (Marsi) have echoed that the server feels completely different from what it was.

It could just be nostalgia, but no, I do believe the entire culture has shifted. And if you think it's an Arelith problem, you'd be wrong. D&D players as a whole seem to have completely changed. They don't care so much for what they would call arbitrary decisions (such as, should we bring enough rations and torches at the risk of not having enough room for the 10-foot pole to the dungeon?)
It's just become so video-gamey that balance and power building is expected from D&D players, while roleplay is optional.

That shifted culture is what also has changed Arelith. That's not on the devs, nor the admins. They cannot control how a gaming culture changes, after all. I don't see them putting up a cash shop where you can buy power, so I'd say Arelith devs are actually going against the norm here.
But I do really wish that Roleplay was emphasized as most important on what we call a roleplay server.

I also realize that there is helplessness for those of us who call for a better server, for more roleplay. Because what we're asking for can't be fixed by devs. You can't script or code something that will make people roleplay and appreciate the setting more. You could harshly punish everyone who is running, but I think we've had that before and most people didn't like that or find that solution ideal. And I agree, I'd rather we educate problem players first.

A friend and I were playing a 5th edition D&D-based game together, and we bitterly joked how we were getting more roleplay in a game without a chat function than we did on Skal. And weren't kidding either. It's just so sad that it's come to that. That seemingly everyone running around with their weapons out, flat out ignoring other player characters (to say nothing of NPCs, treating them like they don't exist). I know that this segment is specifically a Skal problem, but it really does reflect the server health as whole, as a roleplay server.

My controversial take: Writs have taken away the social roleplay aspect of dungeoneering, instead replaced it with an MMO-like three daily quests system where you want to get it done as soon as possible before you can roleplay. (Yes, I am literally quoting a handful of people with these expectations.)
What was meant as a fun tool to reward players for delving seems instead to encourage more soloing and quick runs through the dungeons. Not to say anything of how many PCs (regardless of alignment, heck regardless of their personality and traits) open up with "Leave or die" in dungeons. That is, if you're lucky enough that they didn't run past you like you never existed.

All that to say is, my heart goes out for those who, like me, miss the days when D&D culture was different. The only thing I don't miss is the misogyny, but other than that, I'd happily go back to 2009's Arelith and D&D culture, but with the quality of life changes added in.

Hmm, could we have an Arelith Classic with Heavy RP rules?

[tessimon]

This is why I have largely tried to take my hands off of classes and started trying to add spell variety, and other non -mechanical things.

I really like the abilities that allow for RP hooks as props. Take the newish spell Negative Energy Flood, with some setup a character can create many (uncontrolled) undead out of the native spawns. An antagonist necromancer could challenge the druids in Arelith Forest by transforming many critters into undead using their spellslots and lots of booze. At the same time the undead are not a major threat to characters that would be venturing into that area so they're excellent props to set a scene.

I imagine stuff like this takes a lot of thought to develop without it being abusable but it is appreciated for helping to set the scene for interactions.

[DM Poppy]

I appreciate the sentiment here. I have no idea what the new monks do really beyond a quick once over. Hell, I couldn't tell you what a hemomancer is compared to a pyromancer or whatever yet, and that's been out for months. But on the flip side, that also means that if someday comes and I play one of those classes I have an entire new game to learn. To me, that's a bonus and not a downside.

And really, at its core, the game is still the same. I pray for good rolls and try and kill you dead with what my character does well before the theoretical you does the exact same thing to me. That is, unless one of us has stealth and knows how to corner effectively. Then the game is just nonsense.

I really like the sentiment in your first paragraph.

For me, I enjoy the fact that I don't know every mechanic in the game. Because I can be surprised, I can be shocked and I can learn.

I can do that on my Character legitimately as it's new for me and them.

I've still never sailed or fished.

[Mattamue]

Pvp is roleplay. Balance is needed for roleplay to flourish. It's like half y'all forget monk summer. Before anyone tries to use monk summer as some kind of straw man, what's happening with monk todays isn't anything like before. This is 100x better and obviously well-thought out.

[Royal Blood]

There was a mention of writs degrading RP I wanted to mention,

Prior to Writs efficient leveling was circling grinding non stop. Sibayad orcs or the Grimlocks for the UD. Going around and around and around with no purpose or agenda other than getting XP. And If the optional grind spot is taken you get pvp'd!

I think the writs diversify the kinda content players go to and make it worth while mechanically while also adding a story element to it.

Regarding development like overall,

I really think Arelith should adopt a standardize release schedule so changes do not drop randomly. Maybe it's a weekly release? Keep major features monthly? The randomness is irritating. I remember traveling for like two weeks I came back and my entire class had been upended I had to dig through quite a few announcements to figure out what happened.

I think classes are in a better place now than they used to be. I feel like we've got so many more options and I run into so many unique builds. Though it is mildly overwhelming!

It would be cool to see more development effort spent towards server features that would continue to aid in story telling and features that equip players with like more RP options or other features that add depth to the story / plot of the server.

I'd caution maybe how complicated some builds get. There are already SO many options. I think it is possible to drown in them. Another user mentioned so much has been added they can't keep up. I kind of feel the same way sometimes. I think standardizing releases would help players like say okay, Wednesday is when updates hit. I can know to expect new things. Instead of a constant barrage at random days and times throughout the week.

[Spyre]

There was a mention of writs degrading RP I wanted to mention,

Prior to Writs efficient leveling was circling grinding non stop. Sibayad orcs or the Grimlocks for the UD. Going around and around and around with no purpose or agenda other than getting XP. And If the optional grind spot is taken you get pvp'd!

I think the writs diversify the kinda content players go to and make it worth while mechanically while also adding a story element to it.

Regarding development like overall,

I really think Arelith should adopt a standardize release schedule so changes do not drop randomly. Maybe it's a weekly release? Keep major features monthly? The randomness is irritating. I remember traveling for like two weeks I came back and my entire class had been upended I had to dig through quite a few announcements to figure out what happened.

I think classes are in a better place now than they used to be. I feel like we've got so many more options and I run into so many unique builds. Though it is mildly overwhelming!

It would be cool to see more development effort spent towards server features that would continue to aid in story telling and features that equip players with like more RP options or other features that add depth to the story / plot of the server.

I'd caution maybe how complicated some builds get. There are already SO many options. I think it is possible to drown in them. Another user mentioned so much has been added they can't keep up. I kind of feel the same way sometimes. I think standardizing releases would help players like say okay, Wednesday is when updates hit. I can know to expect new things. Instead of a constant barrage at random days and times throughout the week.

Release schedules had been discussed previously: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=39241&p=306927&hil ... le#p306927

I would like to see intended road maps in advance so players are aware of content changing rather than seeing it change when its announced.

Like Q1 of 2023, X, Y and Z are slated to change and this is what we are looking to do - and give status updates on progress, testing windows, etc.

[Arigard]

I personally wish there was more focus on working on roleplay tools rather than classes (which seems to be what 80-90% of Arelith development is about). If the drive instead was to be working on conflict resolution tools, faction and settlement mechanics, player-given writs, so on...I guess what I personally want from development is new and improved ways to interact with my fellow players (that isn't bashing them on the head with a new combat ability). I know I'm only one "style" of player of the many that coexist on Arelith, but I'm less interested in classes and meta and number balancing and more into roleplay. It'd be nice to see roleplay-focused development happening, you know? Not to say it doesn't happen of course! Just that it feels like for every 'manacles' update, there are a hundred 'balancing pvp meta' updates.

Amen. For all of the class changes we've had in the past couple of years, players still get to level 30 and are hit with exactly the same issues. The foundations of what you can do to gain agency as a character have barely changed. I appreciate how much time goes into many of the updates, but I find it harder and harder to login to Arelith these days & that's mainly because - regardless of how many new classes get brought into the game, you can leave for an indefinite period of time, return and feel like you're walking back into the exact same RP situation you left. The characters names change, items change and there's some new shiny toys to throw around - but ultimately in terms of actual RP and day to day purpose, the server feels absolutely no different to what it did years ago.

New classes are great for a server where max level turn around is going to take a long time. You can enjoy that journey almost indefinitely as you explore the RP of that class, but the levelling experience in Arelith within a few weeks puts you, even on new shiny characters right back into the situation of "Well I'm 30 once more - what is there to work towards in RP now?" situation. To which the answer is, get elected, get some property - 5% your gear - maybe do some conflict (but not too much conflict) & then realize you're in a never ending groundhog day over and over - where you're faced with very little impact opportunity and mechanics that provide you with purpose, only shinier characters.

World changing events, things that keep the overall environment interesting & fresh, reasons to fulfil roles as characters - these things are at their core the primary spine of any story - and yet we rarely see them visited in concept in terms of development. What has been added to aid RP have been fantastic (shackles, rituals, sailing etc), but it pales in comparison to the focus on build mechanics. If the last 3 years were spent focusing solely on RP tools, consequence, purpose and meaning for true character development within Arelith, I suspect players would barely notice if there had not been a single new class added to the game.

Likewise, with classes as the focus of a roleplay foundation in the server, I honestly feel a lot of the changes are not really helping that either. By following more cookie cutter 4th edition onward design choices, it's very difficult to build interesting character concepts, when you are being forced into a 26+ level route by design & end up a mirror of 90% of other characters that also choose that class. Outside of a weapon choice, what is there mechanically that gives your character their identity? Ultimately, the beauty of 3.0/3.5 edition DnD was that it enabled a wide variety of mixing/matching and interesting class combinations and it can be a little frustrating to see every single class rework requiring almost a hard focus down a narrowed select few pathways.

To me personally, it doesn't feel like the changes in recent years have a wider plan - but more like there are many chefs all cooking at the same time - and whilst I do appreciate the effort that is being put in - there is wisdom in the old adage that too many chefs spoil the broth - and that isn't to say that having a lot of active developers is bad. It's amazing that Arelith has the support it does, but too many people pulling in every which direction, without a unified goal, has a real tendency to become inconsistent and chaotic - and all that does in the long term is break immersion.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Pvp is roleplay. Balance is needed for roleplay to flourish. It's like half y'all forget monk summer. Before anyone tries to use monk summer as some kind of straw man, what's happening with monk todays isn't anything like before. This is 100x better and obviously well-thought out.

PVP is 100% roleplay. But mechanical pvp, at least the way it plays on Arelith, leads to silly roleplay. I can't tell you how many times by now a conversation that seemed to be an "in" to some juicy conflict had to be cut off and changed to a conversation about flowers or whatever because the character I was conversing with about their antagonist let it slip that "Oh, yeah, and Johnny has killed me three times already."

The type of PVP that legends are made of involve a back and forth that often doesn't rely one guy killing the other, and even if it does it's at the end of a long saga where the loser willingly stays dead, face full of smiles about the story they just told. That sort of PvP doesn't need balance at all.

Now that doesn't mean things should be just a free for all, there needs to be some level of balance lest you have everyone playing the same classes. But absolute balance where every class is a pvp wrecking ball as good as the next one over? Thats not only impossible, but it also actually makes no sense at all from a setting/lore perspective.

And the irony here is that relying on roleplay actually balances pvp. Example: "Sure, maybe you are more powerful than I, and you get to bully me in the moment. But I am more cunning, and I will hunt down everyone you ever wronged in the past and get them all to align against you even if we otherwise have nothing in common." Thats roleplay on all sorts of levels. Maybe one of the coalition decides that they are better off with the bully and betrays the others, adding an extra layer of roleplay on top, ect.

Unfortunately, most of the conflict I have seen in my time here doesn't really come to that. It's often one person wanting to throw their mechanical power around, usually over something silly, and the other side refusing to back down when they are outmatched as if daring the other guy to kill them. And honestly, there is no right on either side of that, they are both assholes.

[CrashGoblin]

i wish wizard had this same level of care and attention

[Mattamue]

PVP is 100% roleplay. But mechanical pvp, at least the way it plays on Arelith, leads to silly roleplay.

That's just bad pvp. Especially, as you pointed out, saying x bad guy killed me 3 times is now against the death memory rules. There's still plenty of mechanical pvp that is good.

[-XXX-]

i wish wizard had this same level of care and attention

Let's be objective here, the wizard has had a lot of development work done around it (some of it older, some more recent):

• 8 distinct SF/ESF perks
• Arelith specific summons and -streams
• wild mage path
• shadow mage path
• 8 distinct specialist subclasses
• arcane flux
• custom and updated spells
• spellmaggedon

Thing is, while all of these are wonderful flavor and QoL improvements, they do not really alleviate the power level hit the class suffered with the design direction that virutally disqualified DC based spells for PvP, nor do they address the vancian PvE issues that come with larger dungeons.

[CrashGoblin]

You are correct, the unfortunate truth is that most of those things are very insignificant, meaningless or misses the mark altogether. Maybe I'll make a thread with my grievances about what upsets me about wizard.

[Watchful Glare]

Amen. For all of the class changes we've had in the past couple of years, players still get to level 30 and are hit with exactly the same issues. The foundations of what you can do to gain agency as a character have barely changed. I appreciate how much time goes into many of the updates, but I find it harder and harder to login to Arelith these days & that's mainly because - regardless of how many new classes get brought into the game, you can leave for an indefinite period of time, return and feel like you're walking back into the exact same RP situation you left. The characters names change, items change and there's some new shiny toys to throw around - but ultimately in terms of actual RP and day to day purpose, the server feels absolutely no different to what it did years ago.

New classes are great for a server where max level turn around is going to take a long time. You can enjoy that journey almost indefinitely as you explore the RP of that class, but the levelling experience in Arelith within a few weeks puts you, even on new shiny characters right back into the situation of "Well I'm 30 once more - what is there to work towards in RP now?" situation. To which the answer is, get elected, get some property - 5% your gear - maybe do some conflict (but not too much conflict) & then realize you're in a never ending groundhog day over and over - where you're faced with very little impact opportunity and mechanics that provide you with purpose, only shinier characters.

World changing events, things that keep the overall environment interesting & fresh, reasons to fulfil roles as characters - these things are at their core the primary spine of any story - and yet we rarely see them visited in concept in terms of development. What has been added to aid RP have been fantastic (shackles, rituals, sailing etc), but it pales in comparison to the focus on build mechanics. If the last 3 years were spent focusing solely on RP tools, consequence, purpose and meaning for true character development within Arelith, I suspect players would barely notice if there had not been a single new class added to the game.

Likewise, with classes as the focus of a roleplay foundation in the server, I honestly feel a lot of the changes are not really helping that either. By following more cookie cutter 4th edition onward design choices, it's very difficult to build interesting character concepts, when you are being forced into a 26+ level route by design & end up a mirror of 90% of other characters that also choose that class. Outside of a weapon choice, what is there mechanically that gives your character their identity? Ultimately, the beauty of 3.0/3.5 edition DnD was that it enabled a wide variety of mixing/matching and interesting class combinations and it can be a little frustrating to see every single class rework requiring almost a hard focus down a narrowed select few pathways.

To me personally, it doesn't feel like the changes in recent years have a wider plan - but more like there are many chefs all cooking at the same time - and whilst I do appreciate the effort that is being put in - there is wisdom in the old adage that too many chefs spoil the broth - and that isn't to say that having a lot of active developers is bad. It's amazing that Arelith has the support it does, but too many people pulling in every which direction, without a unified goal, has a real tendency to become inconsistent and chaotic - and all that does in the long term is break immersion.

I will add my own two cents towards this, as I agree on much of what has been said. I enjoy building characters and helping others build competent creatures mechanically. I like to do it. And it has happened to me that in the path towards viability or optimization most of the things I make are cornered towards the same choices, no matter what I am making. And the more I start cutting around the corners to make small concessions to increase efficiency, the more it just resembles 'the same build'.

But that is a more complex issue that I don't believe can be tackled or addressed in one day. I will be making some suggestions towards things that I believe could provide some RP help or sense of progression, a longer curve, that is ultimately grounded in RP to prevent the groundhog day feeling.

[chocolatelover]

Arelith is supposed to be a D&D based game server

I completely agree with your sentiments regarding the changes over the past few years. It's important to remember that the server is based on the 3rd and 3.5 edition of D&D, and that prestige classes were how build diversity was added to characters using those mechanics. Kitbashing poorly thought-out mechanics from newer editions (5th edition paladin oaths, cleric paths, etc.) can often lead to a jarring experience and detract from the overall immersion of the game, especially when the changes are so sweeping and frequent, like the spellcraft changes for example.

While I appreciate the efforts of the development team to continuously improve and update the server, it's important to ensure that changes align with the source material and maintain the overall balance of the game. As you mentioned, changes coming too frequently can make it difficult for players to keep up and understand how to play effectively.

Ultimately, it's up to the development team to ensure that changes are thoughtful, well-considered, and in line with the spirit of the game. As players, we can provide feedback and encourage the team to focus on preserving the core elements of the game while adding meaningful new content. I hope that the development team takes some of this feedback to heart.

I have been playing on Arelith for just under a year and I am completely overwhelmed by the constant changes being implemented. I do not have the 6-7 hours a day to play that some do. I am also weak in my understanding of builds and mechanics. I have resigned myself to being a supporting character... my pc will try to cheer you along in your storyline as I am not creative enough to come up with my own, but I am so WEARY of trying to figure out what's new today. I realize that new things need to come along on this server to keep the heavily-invested players interested. (How many times can you level up your 30 -level character in Cordor and not be bored, anyway?) but for those of us supporting players I just feel lost. Rule changes, build changes, mechanic changes/ I cannot keep up with them! I have to hope I don't do something really stupid , which I do anyway, and that the other player will receive my apology with grace. I get on Arelith to relax. I do NOT want to spend my time on PGCC or digging through the wiki doing research. I realize others love this.

I don't know what the answer is....how to keep the 7-hour a day players interested without overwhelming the rest of us? I don't know. But 3-4 announcements with changes everyday seems a bit much. Especially when they have to redo them so often.

[Goldeen]

Release schedules had been discussed previously: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=39241&p=306927&hil ... le#p306927

I would like to see intended road maps in advance so players are aware of content changing rather than seeing it change when its announced.

Like Q1 of 2023, X, Y and Z are slated to change and this is what we are looking to do - and give status updates on progress, testing windows, etc.

This^

I realize changes are usually talked about for weeks and maybe months on end before coming to live servers, but to the community, it's instant. Aside from Monk being sent to PGCC all the other updates for balance are new to the community. And when players critique these changes they’ve never seen before they get slapped in the face in the development channel in the Arelith Discord.

Players have the right to be angry when a change is made, a change that may or may not have made someone feel like they wasted tens or maybe hundreds of hours on a character. One they had no way of knowing was even being discussed.

It's why people got upset when spellmageddon caused a server rollback.

It's why people got upset when Seekers were changed after they remained that way for a long time.

It's why people got upset when Scrying Mirrors were about to get changed.

It feels like the staff makes changes and the community is an afterthought. Once it’s out there we’re just supposed to accept it. Players who complain are seen as toxic, but these upset players need to be heard. A player who plays Arelith 24/7 knows what the greater good is for the server too.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

PVP is 100% roleplay. But mechanical pvp, at least the way it plays on Arelith, leads to silly roleplay.

That's just bad pvp. Especially, as you pointed out, saying x bad guy killed me 3 times is now against the death memory rules. There's still plenty of mechanical pvp that is good.

It was just one example. The point is that mechanical pvp is not really part of the roleplay experience, save for two situations. The ending of a story, with one side being victorious, and perhaps a couple of battles that end in stand stills over the course of a couple of months or whatever. The instant you find yourself killing the same person for a second (or third, or fourth) time over the same conflict, someone else is pointing and laughing at how silly your conflict has gotten. And the truth is, assuming two characters are after the same thing but from a different angle, as long as they are both "alive" that multiple death thing is almost unavoidable.

No amount of pvp rules would fix that either, the only thing that will is players taking the time to let a story grow by any means necessary rather than just jumping into full death pvp at the first chance. Or don't. Truth be told, some of my best one liner's over the years have come at the expense of folks in an endless circle of conflict with another group of folks, and I really do like making people laugh as we roleplay.

[magistrasa]

The point is that mechanical pvp is not really part of the roleplay experience, save for two situations. The ending of a story, with one side being victorious, and perhaps a couple of battles that end in stand stills over the course of a couple of months or whatever.

Not to be the needless pedant with a contrary anecdote, but I feel compelled to say that some of my fondest and most formative memories of roleplay on Arelith include PvP encounters that do not resemble what you are describing. They're what you'd probably consider "not really part of the roleplay experience," and yet I find that I cherish the narrative opportunities that came from those "bad PvP" situations. All this is said to serve the point that when you get right down to it, this is really just a matter of perspective - one that people aren't wrong to disagree with you on, so I'd caution against using such authoritative language on the matter. At the end of the day, I think excluding any in-game experience from the definition of roleplay is a harmful mindset to have or to encourage. What you see is what you get, and everything in-game is in-character. In my experience, everyone is better off incorporating as much of those mantras as they possibly can into their roleplay.

[Alyxnia]

It's great to see the community discussing these topics and sharing ideas, however, I kindly request that we don't turn this conversation into a debate on PvP combat. While it's an important aspect of the game for some players, it's not the focus of this discussion. Let's stay on topic and continue to share constructive feedback and suggestions for the development team.

Thank you again for your input and for keeping this conversation productive and respectful.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The point is that mechanical pvp is not really part of the roleplay experience, save for two situations. The ending of a story, with one side being victorious, and perhaps a couple of battles that end in stand stills over the course of a couple of months or whatever.

Not to be the needless pedant with a contrary anecdote, but I feel compelled to say that some of my fondest and most formative memories of roleplay on Arelith include PvP encounters that do not resemble what you are describing. They're what you'd probably consider "not really part of the roleplay experience," and yet I find that I cherish the narrative opportunities that came from those "bad PvP" situations. All this is said to serve the point that when you get right down to it, this is really just a matter of perspective - one that people aren't wrong to disagree with you on, so I'd caution against using such authoritative language on the matter. At the end of the day, I think excluding any in-game experience from the definition of roleplay is a harmful mindset to have or to encourage. What you see is what you get, and everything in-game is in-character. In my experience, everyone is better off incorporating as much of those mantras as they possibly can into their roleplay.

Well, I certainly didn't mean to come across as someone who sees themselves as an authority on anything. Truth be told, I have had a lot of fun on random pvp encounters, usually against a group in a dungeon that took my alternative conflict resolution tactics to be a sign of weakness. It's always fun when I single handedly beat two, three, and even once 4 like ragdolls, as I imagine their surprise on their way to the fugue. But another truth that needs to be told, I never really consider that part of my characters story, but rather pve +. These aren't other characters that I had developed a story with, and most times I will never see them again.

That being said, of course there's likely another scenario where conflict pvp can lead to mechanical pvp that I left out. I'm a person who writes too much trying to cut down on the length so people will read. But when someone says PvP equals RP, I do often feel the urge to correct it even if I rarely act upon it, because without the distinction between conflict driven PvP and just straight mechanical PvP its easy for some PvP junky to just say, "What, PvP is RP, so I am RPing on the RP server!" even though all they are really doing is logging in and looking for a fight. And it's not because I initially think the author has it wrong, but rather that the wording can be taken wrong by someone else, if that makes sense.

And really, conflicts where one side kills the other one day, but then the other gets the other side back a few days later, and so forth.. This is the sort of thing that has kept people from sticking their necks out and doing cool stuff. It's not the PvP they are adverse to, but rather the idea that that's where their character is until one of the sides gets sick of losing enough they quit. I know this is a big thing, because whenever i am playing in a group that should be more proactive that's often the response I get when I propose doing proactive shit.

So just to clarify the main point I am trying to make here: If people slowed down a little on the pvp, and let the story develop, they won't find themselves at the point of ridiculousness before the story even had a chance to get good.