Sorcerer

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-XXX-
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Mon May 08, 2023 8:40 pm

Drethian wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:27 pm

Discipline is 100% a side-topic that neglects to address this thread's actual topic, and frankly that whole debate belongs in another thread.

That's right, and I acknowledged that.

However, seeing the thread title and pointing out where and how the class could use improvement doesn't really seem that much offtopic to me, especially since the proposed solution basically seeks to fix the Sorcerer by turning it into a less inferior Wizard, which I don't believe would have been a good approach.

It's not so much that I'd be resistant toward the notion of a wider spell selection, but rather I don't believe it would have addressed much:

  • Wider spell selection, for the most part would have only given the sorcerer access to more DC spells, which they cannot really support with spell foci that they (as already pointed out) get very few of.

  • Even if they could support a wider array of spell schools with spell foci, it would have made only a minor difference and mostly in PvE, because
    a) in PvP most DC spells are very unreliable and spell foci rarely make any difference once we take into account average saves
    b) in PvE all DC spells represent very inefficient use of resources unless infinicaster

  • Spell foci are nowdays taken mostly for their perks and not so much to increase spell DCs - for the Sorcerer this usually means ESF:evocation(1) for access to Hellball and GRuin and either transmutation for better ZOO buffs or conju/necro (all of which are just different avenues to improve summons)

  • Sorcerer gets sufficient spell selection up to lvl 5 spell circle, lvl 6 spell circle is critical, lvl 7 spell circle generally offers a very poor selection of spells (as the OP pointed out) and lvl 8 and lvl 9 then usually exist for metamagiced IGMS (very little reason to go beyond the listed essentials). Once we take all that into account, we might notice that the entire spell selection issue currently boils down to lvl 6 spells (and even that has more implications for Sorcerer's PvE performance than PvP)


(1) i.e. ESF taken for the sole benefit of removing the blowback damage from epic spells - something that could have been supplanted by, say Loremaster, had that been viable

Last edited by -XXX- on Mon May 08, 2023 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Scylon
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Scylon » Mon May 08, 2023 8:55 pm

I can't agree with this talk of more spells for sorc unless they are tied to a bloodline and you can't pick and choose them.

Sorc is supposed to have less to choose but more casts. My issue with them right now is they don't really get either. Invoker or elementalist is just a better sorc. Sorc does indeed get a better list then either, but they don't get the sustainability in PvE to make them fun. Same as Wizard. Though I can forgive wizard as they at lease get Flux.


Drethian
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Drethian » Mon May 08, 2023 10:18 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 8:40 pm
  • Even if they could support a wider array of spell schools with spell foci, it would have made only a minor difference and mostly in PvE, because
    a) in PvP most DC spells are very unreliable and spell foci rarely make any difference once we take into account average saves
    b) in PvE all DC spells represent very inefficient use of resources unless infinicaster

  • Spell foci are nowdays taken mostly for their perks and not so much to increase spell DCs - for the Sorcerer this usually means ESF:evocation(1) for access to Hellball and GRuin and either transmutation for better ZOO buffs or conju/necro (all of which are just different avenues to improve summons)

Both of the above points are spot on.

-XXX- wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 8:40 pm
  • Wider spell selection, for the most part would have only given the sorcerer access to more DC spells, which they cannot really support with spell foci that they (as already pointed out) get very few of.

True. The ability to select more spells provides minimal boost to a sorcerer's strength in PvE & PvP, due to that exact reason.
But it is a significant boost to their versatility and quality of life.
Which is precisely why it's a good suggestion.

  • Increased quality of life.
  • No damage to server balance.

A Sorcerer's Spellbook:

There is much to be wanted in a sorcerer's spellbook even at levels 4-5 and 7-9. And it would not harm the server balance to provide it with an additional spell at those levels.

At best, it'd makes the class a little more customizable. It'd offer them the ability to select a few more spells so that not every sorcerer on the server finds themselves thrusted into the same, cookie-cutter path that they seemingly all find themselves assigned to.

Sorcerers (& Wizards) are merely Summon & Haste Dispensers in PvE:

A sorcerer's entire PvE experience consists of:

  • Dispensing mass haste.
  • Mind-numbingly watching a summon do all the work.

They do not have the luxury of getting to reliably use damage/crowd control spells against mobs because they will very rapidly run out of spells.
In vanilla NWN, this is not an issue due to infinite, no cooldown resting. On Arelith, it's a life sentence to the category of support.

Sorcerers (& Wizards) are merely Dispel Dispensers in PvP:

A sorcerer's entire PvP experience consists of:

  • Dispensing dispels / counterspells.
  • Likely failed DC spells: Reference: Server-wide increases to unisaves, courtesy of the spellcraft changes.
  • Brief IGMS spam. (Highly counterable, easily sustained via Ironguts + Heal potions. If they breach Ironguts, you just drink another. You have more potions than they have Mords.)
  • Swiftly running out of your finite quantity of spells in long lasting, raid-scale PvP.

Sorcerers (& Wizards) are completely outclassed in PvE by Hemomancer, Warlock, and other classes with infinicasting/spell refreshes.
Sorcerers (& Wizards) are similarly outclassed In PvP by casters with far more longevity. They do get strong gimmicks like Mords and Timestop, but so does anyone with 80 lore. IGMS is also very counterable, as aforementioned.

Solutions

  • Sorcerers (& Wizards) could both benefit greatly from spell refresh chances in their chosen spell schools, so they have more freedom to actually use their spells without rapidly running out of fuel and needing to rest.
    (Disclaimer: Some spells should be exempted from this list. Mords, for example, shouldn't get refreshes.)
  • +1 spell per level. Which, as outlined before, would not actually hurt the server balance or make the class overly strong. It'd just improve it's quality of life.

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-XXX-
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 09, 2023 12:26 am

Sorcerer could be given something like pacts (bloodlines in this case) - even copypasted from the warlock as they are would work IMO.

Mechanically the pacts provide a curated set of infinicasting spells that's been tried and tested not to break the game, all while meaningfully expanding the sorcerer's spell list. At the same time, sorcerer gets very few feats, so a special tier of subfeats would not result in them getting too many of them.

Lorewise the sorcerer bloodlines often come from the same entities that the warlock pacts with. The only difference being that the power comes from the lineage and not from a deal.

Overall, this'd mean the sorcerer would still distinguish itself from the wizard by trading spell selection for spontaneous casting while at the same time it would set itself apart from the warlock by trading the eldritch blast for a superior spell list.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Power Word, Haste » Wed May 10, 2023 1:04 am

Make vanilla arcane casters great again.


Anomandaris
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Anomandaris » Fri May 26, 2023 6:02 am

weavemaster has left the chat

So wait, is inficasting bad or is it good for the server? Did personnel change one day that were stalwartly advocating against this mechanic?

How do we reconcile inficasters with limited casters? I'm suspicious the answer is "add more inficasting." It used to require some art and finesse to get through a dungeon with limited resources, now I feel like we've got training wheels on.

Things were already ridiculous with ppl walking around carrying stacks of consumables. Anyone who says PVP is not a game of attrition has not watched enough of PVP. My Sorc never even knew Timestop or Gate because I carried stacks of 100 of each. It absolutely can be about attrition and who's willing to spend the most $$$$. Sure it can also be very bursty but it also can be about who runs out of consumables first. With pray and healing, plus very high saves it's entirely possible to gas out your spellbook completely trying to kill someone.But I don't think trying to level the playing field against superior preparation and skill is a good idea.

Generally it seems like the design philosophy of the server is inconsistent, due to either personnel turnover or design by committee, which results in some confusingly incongruent implementations. But hey we're all here because it's a great server and fun as heck to play. Thanks for all the incredible effort even if opinions may differ and we complain.

I just really hope this remains a DND + Homebrew inspired server instead of a new shiny game to attract new people made with a bunch of spare parts. Most of the "core playerbase" has a deep appreciation for the ruleset and the FR setting as a sandbox. There's endless lore and source material to guide implementations for the next decade. I love the new content and additions to the experience, but we really don't need to keep reinventing the mechanical wheel to make it shinier.


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-XXX-
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Fri May 26, 2023 11:01 pm

It's not about whether it's good or bad - we've arrived at that destination already as there are warlocks and invokers.

Putting even greater emphasis on attrition would have only given an edge to older characters - I doubt that anybody wants that.

Also, classes aren't really equal in this regard either - there's infinite attrition potential in melee attacks and for all intents and purposes infinite attrition potential in ranged attacks too. The vancian concept is the oddball here.

We know something went horribly wrong when even the best wizard build runs around hitting stuff with a sword.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Eyeliner » Sat May 27, 2023 6:25 am

Vancian magic is designed for DM-run PVE adventures in highly controlled settings. It works there but this is something else.

What if sorcerers had a limited use of the invoker's focus system? Like offensive spells up to a certain level could use focus instead of being expended so you always have something better than a cantrip or GSF spell to cast? But you'd still be rationing the buffs and high level spells and wouldn't be a full invoker.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Anomandaris » Sat May 27, 2023 11:37 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 6:25 am

Vancian magic is designed for DM-run PVE adventures in highly controlled settings. It works there but this is something else.

What if sorcerers had a limited use of the invoker's focus system? Like offensive spells up to a certain level could use focus instead of being expended so you always have something better than a cantrip or GSF spell to cast? But you'd still be rationing the buffs and high level spells and wouldn't be a full invoker.

The solution to the problems and imbalance made by adding more infi cast is not to add more infi cast. It’s to dial back things like Hemomancer which are spamming 60-100+ dmg withering rays for absolutely no good reason (and also gets free auto quicken II as well)! Yikes, the class is out of control over tuned and no wonder we’re feeling like vanilla casters are looking meh.

I’ve played several sorcs and they absolutely can crush PVE and do very well in PVP. A recent sorcadin PC I played did very well in Cordor PVP tournaments as well as “pvp in the wild.” They just don’t have as many cookies because it’s hard to add features to a class that is already quite powerful without making it really OP. Anything added to sorc should be geared towards rp flavor and less mechanical power IMO.

Thr fact is every class should NOT be good at everything and able to compete on “even terms.” We should all have weaknesses and counters. Having variety instead of making everything vanilla and feel the same makes things interesting and dynamic. And yah it creates a rough day
if you encounter the “paper” to your “rock,” but find a pair of scissors?

There’s absolutely no reason Vancians shouldn’t be perfectly fine unless we keep adding inficasting that makes them comparably obsolete. Resting is very east, and an important part of the setting/mechanics. We don’t need to have a food or water system either but we do because it just makes good sense for rp. We can fairly easily manage our rest levels on a whim with FOIG consumables as well. Just because it takes thought and a bit of skill to make it through a dungeon with limited spells doesn’t mean we need to make it even easier so it’s brainless.

It feels like we put training wheels on and enjoyed the comfort. Where is the appreciation for an epic struggle or an amazing bit of preparation and teamwork to get through a tough dungeon? Now just spam infi cast darkness and exploit dumb AI even if it has UV and solo anything.


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-XXX-
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 27, 2023 3:53 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 11:37 am

It’s to dial back things like Hemomancer which are spamming 60-100+ dmg withering rays for absolutely no good reason

It's the same withering ray that your sorcerer can cast too(1), but as a rule of the thumb you just don't want to do that with your 8/day spell slots, which only serves as a testament to how terrible the vancian spellbook is.

The MaV of an empowered/maxed withering ray is 90 damage - fort save for 1/2 damage (which happens very often even during PvE).
It's rarely good enough to mop up one monster spawn. Same spawn that a WM can whirlwind down before the quckened withering ray even fires off.

Infinite withering rays really aren't overpowered (comparable to maxed fireball or firebrand actually) - they merely put the sorcerer with its vancian spellbook to shame, which only drives the point farther home if anything.


(1) Fathomlock and Starlock get infinite castings of it as well, just btw.


Eyeliner
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by Eyeliner » Sat May 27, 2023 8:18 pm

I highly doubt they’re going to severely nerf invokers, a popular and fun class, to make sorcerers more enticing. I do see the appeal of Vancian magic because it’s D&D and I like D&D… TBH I would rather the server had stayed truer to D&D roots for my own nostalgic reasons. But that’s not going to happen and as much as I disagree with a lot of the changes I have to admit it’s a good thing the server isn’t only catering to nostalgia.

The main reason I’ve come around to infinicasters is they make the hundreds of spells we have available actually worth using. Sure, some more than others, but no Vancian goes around casting most of the DC-based spells and it's just fun to be able to use them instead of hiding behind summons until it's time for your one burst. I’m just echoing what others have already said on that so no need to write ten paragraphs about it.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AnselHoenheim » Sun May 28, 2023 9:33 am

Can't we just get a meditation feature that basically is like a short rest for restoring spellslots without the chance of an ambush, or, just remove the ambush feature entirely, or the annoying anti-rest areas? I think that's precisely what would help wizards and sorcerers to catch up in comparison to the quasy-infinite turrets that are the rest of casters like hemomancer, elementalist or warlock.


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Re: Sorcerer

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 28, 2023 10:14 am

iirc there's a spell in D&D called Wish... which refreshes all your spells or something like that. We can maybe introduce something like that, under some limitations. Frankly, I would think that the absurdly easy rest meter management we have these days (through bar drinks) would be enough to help vancian mages shine but I guess not, and maybe something like Wish is what we need to add on top of that.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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-XXX-
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Re: Sorcerer

Post by -XXX- » Sun May 28, 2023 11:09 am

It's a QoL issue - resting dispels all wards, which take both spellslots and TIME to recast.
Compare that to an infinicaster who just hits the spellqueue button with all their wards before adventuring and then goes BRRR

This would basically mean doubling (or less than doubling - because of all the ward spell slots) the vancian's spellcastings, which while still a signifficant boost in theory would probably not be good enough - certainly not enough for direct damage spells suddenly becoming a meaningful use of resources for them in PvE.


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