Dragon Disciple the (not so) prestigious

[Richrd]

The wings look silly and I feel like they're just so lusted after because they're seen as attention magnets.

But then again this is Arelith. Place is already wild with the crazy amount of racial diversity. Walked into Skal and I saw a kenku, half-giants (yes, multiple), horcs, elves, dwarves and humans all in the same area at the same time. Glowy weapons, visible buffs and all that too.

With all that and the crazy high-fantasy setting of Arelith why not give people wings? Screw it, give everybody horns and pink skin and tails too. Let'em go crazy. Couple of back-flaps added to all the already existing visual soup would barely do anything.

[Sinistar]

With all that and the crazy high-fantasy setting of Arelith why not give people wings? Screw it, give everybody horns and pink skin and tails too. Let'em go crazy. Couple of back-flaps added to all the already existing visual soup would barely do anything.

Just take a "When everyone is unique, noone will be." style approach. It really does confuse me that talks of balancing a class just boils down to aesthetics.

[Eyeliner]

From what I've seen the unique races or classes add more to the community when there are more of them to back each other up. If there's only one of a kind floating around they tend to be played as a human freak, not the race that they are. But if there are multiple they can actually start exploring the culture and feed off each other. The half-giant RP we see has been pretty great, for example, and that's entirely due to there being a lot of them around.

RDD is a little different since you're still your base race but I don't see more of them as a bad thing if it encourages getting involved with each other and explore what being a dragon disciple means.

I mean, this is Forgotten Realms. Weird companions is the normal.

[definatelynothealbold]

An alternative could be to frontload RDD, so the character basically starts at level 8 (class level 3) with all the attributes from RDD from the get-go, and then limit them to max level 25.

That way, you can play whatever you want for classes, but you'll be severely hampered at end-level (missing out of 5 HD/CL/class levels and at least two epic feats and an attribute point). Leveling will also be harder since you count as level 8 (plus whatever ECL you ahve on top) but with only 3 HD.

Narratively, it also avoids the "Oh, the transformation only started on this island.. because reasons" when you sprout wings after spending a month on the isle.

I can't think of anything that would make the class worse than completely deleting 5 levels to the point you literally cannot reach level 30.

What we have now would work better than "Your max level is 25 if you take this class." That's just downright awful, as it stands now, you still at least get that HP, that BAB, the saves, and the feats and such, on top of the mediocre bonuses. This would just outright kill the class entirely.

[toftdal]

I can't think of anything that would make the class worse than completely deleting 5 levels to the point you literally cannot reach level 30.

What we have now would work better than "Your max level is 25 if you take this class." That's just downright awful, as it stands now, you still at least get that HP, that BAB, the saves, and the feats and such, on top of the mediocre bonuses. This would just outright kill the class entirely.

Just to clarify - the RDD class would no longer exist in this example - instead you basically start as a half-dragon. You 'pay' for the attribute-boni, the wings and resistance with a reduction in max levels. Should it be 5 levels/HD or should there be other bonuses - other people know this better.

[Rei_Jin]

By that logic, Drow should lose 2 levels, and half-giants even more.

Arelith deals with level adjustments by slowing down the rate of levelling, not reducing your max level.

[toftdal]

By that logic, Drow should lose 2 levels, and half-giants even more.

Arelith deals with level adjustments by slowing down the rate of levelling, not reducing your max level.

I know - but RDD is the odd one out since you're essentially taking a race (half-dragon) as class levels - which makes it break the 'rules' to start with.

[somecritter]

I believe the development team's vision is to have build variety and therefore, as others have already pointed out, RDD could definitely use some tweaks or minor reworks. Arelith features classes that outshine RDD, and given how lackluster the RDD experience currently is, I believe there's minimal risk in removing or reducing certain mechanical requirements to make the class more engaging.

There are plenty of good ideas posted here already, and in the suggestion section of the forum, so I will not be going into details but it would be a very welcomed change.

Also, please, do not change it from a Major to a Greater award.

[Azensor]

Build diversity would be nice.
Currently the only 'semi' useable builds for rdd are:
bard/rdd <- bland 'me smash' bard build
bard/rdd/pdk*
bard/rdd/fighter <-gimped fighter build
bard/rdd/paladin*
bard/rdd/bg*

• are the builds that are..somewhat better than the others, but even still they fall flat when compared against a regular character that didn't take rdd.

Edit: after giving it abit more of a think, you'd probably be better off just decoupling it from bard/sorc and tying it to a new feat with a similar req(8 lore..maybe tie in cha also?) call the feat 'draconic ancestry' or some such

[definatelynothealbold]

By that logic, Drow should lose 2 levels, and half-giants even more.

Arelith deals with level adjustments by slowing down the rate of levelling, not reducing your max level.

I know - but RDD is the odd one out since you're essentially taking a race (half-dragon) as class levels - which makes it break the 'rules' to start with.

It's really not any different, Giant's get massive stat bonuses compared to other races, and they just get slower leveling. That's just how it is.

Permanently deleting levels or hard capping levels instantly kills any builds for it. Period. The amount of loss you get from 5 epic levels is disastrous to lose. Even the RDD stat bonuses does not make up for those losses.

As for other "Builds" there was one that was Bard/RDD/Barbarian. However it's effectively dead ever since they moved the Barbarian Rages to require 20 levels in Barbarian to get.

RDD/Paladin/Bard is just a worse paladin, but with wings.
RDD/Fighter/Bard is just a worse fighter, but with wings.
RDD/Bard/Blackguard is just a worse Blackguard, but with wings.
RDD/Bard/Swashbuckler I'm pretty sure just just a worse swashbuckler.. but with wings.

Honestly the pattern holds up with just about everything as above. I really cannot think of a single class that really does better having Bard/RDD taking up 13-14 levels, and is still functional at 16-17 levels.

[Shadowy Reality]

RDD/Paladin/Bard is just a worse paladin, but with wings.
RDD/Fighter/Bard is just a worse fighter, but with wings.
RDD/Bard/Blackguard is just a worse Blackguard, but with wings.
RDD/Bard/Swashbuckler I'm pretty sure just just a worse swashbuckler.. but with wings.

The divine versions are not bad.

On a kobold from what I remember from mine you reach 49ab, and a higher AC than regular divine dips, due to RDD AC. The breath weapon also deals 300+ damage on anyone failing the save, which can catch people by surprise.

But they do lose the deep paladin and deep bg goodies, smites, lay on hands, +6 weapons, summons in case of BG.

[definatelynothealbold]

The breath only reaches 300+ damage, if you go super deep into RDD, which makes you a one trick pony. Further, it's a once per 10 minute cool down, which I personally think is absurd in a world full of Full Casters infinitely casting their spells, and classes like Arcane Archer running about.

The RDD AC is okay, I'll give it that. +4 AC that's untyped is quite nice, but your also giving up alot of stuff to get that +4 AC, and that Heavy Dragonfire breathe (Cause to always get 300+ Damage, you have to be 19-20 RDD, which means 3 or 4 Bard, 20 RDD, and that leaves 6-7 levels of another class? I dunno. If the +6 AC and the Nuke that can be evaded that you get once per ten minutes is really worth that.

[Xerah]

Having recently gone through this with my bard 30 Vs bard 20/rdd10 I found I got 2 less AB and 3 less AC, however, I would have been rocked by a dispel. You can get to dispel level 27 but it’s really hard to spare 2 feats (and an extra attack). If that +3 Vs dispel would happen at 20 instead of 21 bard, it would be so much nicer.

[AstralUniverse]

Having recently gone through this with my bard 30 Vs bard 20/rdd10 I found I got 2 less AB and 3 less AC, however, I would have been rocked by a dispel. You can get to dispel level 27 but it’s really hard to spare 2 feats (and an extra attack). If that +3 Vs dispel would happen at 20 instead of 21 bard, it would be so much nicer.

It would actually be pretty cool if RDD simply gave full CL for 20+ bard or sorc characters. It mostly results in players being able to still get their spellbook as if they were pure, but would trade all of their bonus epic feats for that +4 untyped ac, since the str bonus is almost entirely irrelevant to a caster build. For melee build both and ac and str boosts are meaningful, but it wouldnt matter enough either, since 30 bard would still be much better than 20 bard 10 rdd, due to much superior song that gives bonus apr in selfish solo only if you're pure bard (and the rest of the differences between lvl 25 and lvl 30 song, and all the epic bonus feats on 23, 26, 29). It would be slightly ahead of pure bard in ac and ab, but at a huge cost. Seems legit for a major award imo.

The only way to competitively multiclass a bard rn is with 3 evangelist levels, as this allows for 28 song level with just 17 bard lvls and then a plethora of options for 6-10 lvls for a third class. Subsequently this also allows 17 bard 3 evangelist 10 rdd which really doesnt need any buffs rn. it doesnt need direct nerfs either since I know Healing Domain for cleric dips is on the chopping block. this build would not get the bonus cl since it doesnt have 20+ bard, so we're good on the evangelist dip front as well.

I think that's really all we need here for some flavor and build diversity, without making anything stronger than current options. Just giving full CL progression from RDD with 20+ bard/sorc.

[Azensor]

Having recently gone through this with my bard 30 Vs bard 20/rdd10 I found I got 2 less AB and 3 less AC, however, I would have been rocked by a dispel. You can get to dispel level 27 but it’s really hard to spare 2 feats (and an extra attack). If that +3 Vs dispel would happen at 20 instead of 21 bard, it would be so much nicer.

It would actually be pretty cool if RDD simply gave full CL for 20+ bard or sorc characters. It mostly results in players being able to still get their spellbook as if they were pure, but would trade all of their bonus epic feats for that +4 untyped ac, since the str bonus is almost entirely irrelevant to a caster build. For melee build both and ac and str boosts are meaningful, but it wouldnt matter enough either, since 30 bard would still be much better than 20 bard 10 rdd, due to much superior song that gives bonus apr in selfish solo only if you're pure bard (and the rest of the differences between lvl 25 and lvl 30 song, and all the epic bonus feats on 23, 26, 29). It would be slightly ahead of pure bard in ac and ab, but at a huge cost. Seems legit for a major award imo.

The only way to competitively multiclass a bard rn is with 3 evangelist levels, as this allows for 28 song level with just 17 bard lvls and then a plethora of options for 6-10 lvls for a third class. Subsequently this also allows 17 bard 3 evangelist 10 rdd which really doesnt need any buffs rn. it doesnt need direct nerfs either since I know Healing Domain for cleric dips is on the chopping block. this build would not get the bonus cl since it doesnt have 20+ bard, so we're good on the evangelist dip front as well.

I think that's really all we need here for some flavor and build diversity, without making anything stronger than current options. Just giving full CL progression from RDD with 20+ bard/sorc.

locking the only 'decent' option for rdd to 20+ bard/sorc just doesnt feel right imo
and tbf that evag dip has been on the chopping block for the past few weeks, i wouldnt suggest /any/ one take it especially because its more than likely going to get gutted in time.

[AstralUniverse]

locking the only 'decent' option for rdd to 20+ bard/sorc just doesnt feel right imo
and tbf that evag dip has been on the chopping block for the past few weeks, i wouldnt suggest /any/ one take it especially because its more than likely going to get gutted in time.

RDD has several good builds who dont need buffs. My suggestion doesnt block any of those already good existing builds. I merely proposed to make the more 'straight forward' 20 sorc/bard into 10 rdd less of a trap. Just to expand build diversity. Also I wouldnt be so sure that evangelist is getting nerfed. Cleric dips have some issues regardless of evangelist dip. The fact is evangelist dip is the only way a multiclassing bard can compete with pure bard in any metric. Not going to bore you and derail the thread with a wall of math (I just send those directly to the devs) but it's safe to say the stats and tradeoffs on evangelist dip builds are pretty balanced and I think it's safe to play, but there are some unintentional interactions I hope to see fixed, and I expect them to result in indirect nerfs who wont actually destroy any existing builds, just make them less immortal with healing/protection domains. I dont think song level bonus will be touched.

[Sinistar]

Just a me thing again, but if it's going to remain in the state it's in I just personally feel like dropping it down to a greater with a RPR 30 requirement is a good option. There's so few surfacers I've seen who play the class, because if you get a Major, there are better options than a mechanically weird, really limiting prestige class that Kobolds basically get for free. There's so many giants, and fribolgs now (and half the giants are greater rewards anyhow) I don't see how a few more people with wings really upsets the balance that much. You can spend years trying for a major, finally get to play this class without being a Kobold. And if you screw it up, tough luck pal.