Divine Champion Feedback thread

[Kenji]

I am looking for feedback on Divine Champions (previously known as Champion of Torm, AKA CoT) in general, be it thematical, mechanical, or conceptual.

If anyone plays a divine champion or has played one before, please share your build, concept, and/or experience.

Finally, what are your thoughts on what can be done to help Divine Champions become a more distinct class of its own, as well as be able to further inspire or cater to more concepts?

[Power Word, Haste]

It would be nice if the class' abilities weren't tied to charisma. As it stands, if you want to play a CoT, you need deep charisma to play to the class' strengths, at which point you want a div dip. So Divine Champions that have a lot of charisma are always going to div dip, at which point they are inferior to going deep on whichever class they used to div dip (Paladin, Blackguard, Liberator). Just compare the standard 6 Fighter 4 Divine 20 Divine Champion build to a standard deep Paladin, Blackguard, or Liberator build. It doesn't come close.

[AlonelyBard]

A lot of Divine Champion is currently restricted by the divine wrath changes, while at the time it was done because being a low-CHA DC ended up being one of the best ways to build. The CHA requirement for full benefits is incredibly restrictive buildwise now.
Both Paladin and Blackguard end up requiring around 30/20 levels respectively so there's next to no place to get the free feats or additional benefits from Divine Champion.
I feel like Divine Champion right now suffers a lot from the idea of being neither a good fighter replacement (Being a prestige class, and thus being 1 of 2 classes you'd be able to take) or Paladin/BG replacement (Divine champion practically requires these divine classes to function properly, and once again, why take this class instead of getting a tumble dump class instead?)
Back in the day, I used to use Divine Champion as a sort of niche that Liberator has now fallen into, Chaotic leaning paladin.
As for how to fix the class, I think first and foremost you'd need to lower the CHA requirements from divine wrath. If you want it to be a valid paladin choice then you'd likely have to give at least some amount of progression in the base classes. Like 1/2 DivChamp levels count as paladin/BG for class abilities, or even scale with fighter. If you're looking to make the class it's own thing, if possible, it should provide a divine element for otherwise mundane builds, even if just more of a RP Cookie sort of thing. There's plenty of people out there that are looking for a divine warrior type, but don't really like the stylings of the battle cleric, or just think liberator isn't really what they want it to be.

[eddymakaveli]

Div Synergy for one, or something adjacent. Or if not - making divine wrath an instant action. Too much windup for not enough payoff. Plus going deep CHA just doesn't really do anything for you.

[Wrips]

As it is now, there's no reason to play a DC that isn't CHA based (it's not a problem CHA based DCs, I like the concept and they should be a valid path to build one) and even those are inherently inferior to their deep div counterparts.
DC lacks tangible features. Divine Wrath can't carry the class by itself and regen and DC DR are basically QoL, not really impactful mechanically.
Epic bonus feat progression is also bad and should probably be reworked to 23, 26 and 29 (as the current format really hurts deep DC) instead of the current 24 and 28, especially considering all the free stuff the other divine classes get - all which are useful. And no, pre-epic feats are not a substitute for epic feats.
I would also add Divine Synergy for DC 16+ or something for divs and maybe something like Aura of Glory in feat format.

In summary, the class lacks features if compared to Pal/BG/Liberator, has a terrible epic bonus feat progression and is significantly inferior to deep Pal/BG/Lib.

[jomonog]

It was fine before it got changed last iteration for Arelith. If it was just reverted back to vanilla it would get played alot more (although thats not that creative i admit). The charisma gates being so high coupled with the overall wrath reduction have made it pretty unplayable as it stands. Giving it divine synergy would be wierd given it doesnt have turning/access to div might or shield. Wrath as an instant would be pretty good.

[Quidix]

I think the clear improvements would be:
[1] Make wrath instant at level 16
[2] Reduce the Cha threshold for bonus AB by 1 for each step (the odd threshold is very odd)

Beyond that, I'd consider (not all probably):
[3] Another bonus epic feat
[4] Make ability scaling to use the higher of Cha or Con
[5] Give half caster scaling

Please don't make a u-turn of the class and remove cha scaling.

[AstralUniverse]

Divine Champion still has at least 2 good builds I wouldnt want to see buffed. These builds are 3 pal / 7 knight / 20 cot, and 7 pal 7 wm 16 cot. The problem, however, is that these builds, while having respectable and justifiable stats, dont get anything unique that deep paladin doesnt get, and if you take even 1 paladin level you're already invested into paladin RP all-in, and deep paladin is in my opinion the most overpowered build(s) in the game, so pal/cot/ wm or knight are just shadowed by an overpowered thing, and cannot be done with a none-paladin setup. Any other CoT builds are mid to low tier at best.

Another issue that cot has, and barbarian also has for the matter, is that their core ability that gives them a bunch of stats, is not something they can fully relay on for dungeoning, and in pvp a smart player will literally kite you for 2 minutes until you're out of juice. Wrath (and rage too for the matter) is just an unfun ability. We perhaps should consider to make it work like ki barrier, with x charges and adjust the cooldown accordingly, and perhaps add selectable feats and epic feats to further improve the cooldown.

On top of all of this, the absurdly high saves who make CoT shine in heavy DC casters meta, become a blatant overkill when casters go conmax inficasters who spam saveless spells with touch attacks and saves are not as relevant.

[Chloe123]

I don't have the statistics of class distribution on live, but based on this thread i think there are very few players actually play a CoT on live because I can imagine how tedious it is to play one.

First of all it's a mundane, that's already lame to play. Secondly imagine without haste you need 3 round to activate divine shield, might and wraith. It's fine in pvp because you always haste. But in PvE, I'm asking do you also do this before every encounter? That gonna be pretty expensive imo.

In conclusion, why would one play a CoT when they can play a class with better QoL unless they really want CoT rp? Don't torture yourself

[Paint]

Played a CoT once and all I have to say about it is that while it was a ton of fun, the windup and buff uptime juggling between wrath, might, and shield made me feel like I was going a little insane.

The biggest benefit that CoT has over other similar-styled cha-based melees is that it is drowning in feats, especially when you pair it with fighter. However, CoT falls short of carving out its own niche, I think. You end up being something like Paladin or Battle Cleric but with a lot less utility and a lot higher consumable cost.

Though the extra feats give you flexibility, none of them really act as a force multiplier, and fitting WM into a CoT build often represents a lot of sacrifice that doesn't make it a fun tradeoff these days.

Aside from some entirely new gimmick written up for CoT, I think the best thing for it right now would be divine synergy, just so its windup isn't so abysmal. Alternatively, making divine wrath an instant action could probably help with that windup.

[RedGiant]

Though the extra feats give you flexibility, none of them really act as a force multiplier, and fitting WM into a CoT build often represents a lot of sacrifice that doesn't make it a fun tradeoff these days.

I think CoT suffers from a major design problem besides those listed here already, that being the particular combination of late entry and full investment.

The class requires a +7 attack bonus to start, meaning you cannot get the flavor of the class early. Compare this to Blackguard at +6 and Cavalier at +5. Also, the class features and bonuses are structured as such that I would probably not even currently bother with playing anything less than a 20 level CoT.

20 levels of CoT, in turn, cascades into a slew of other problems. As Paint mentions, WM integration is almost impossible or sub-par at best. You also cannot even fit in say an optimally late 3 level rogue dump. Compare this to literally almost every other mundane class.

"But RedGiant," you say, "what about deep Blackguard, doesn't it suffer the same problems?" Well yes, but by going even lvl 18 or lvl 19 Blackguard, you can accomplish almost any optimal Arelith pairing and net 95% efficacy from the class. Compare that to Divine Champion, where if you don't take 20lvls, should you really take the class? The next lower tier that makes any sense is 15 lvls, which translates to, if we are being generous, 75% net efficacy and a frail ghost of the 20th lvl CoT.

In short, I think we need to change this calculus. There was a fear that feats + divine stuff was too strong, but this really doesn't hold up when compared to what is currently possible with other class combinations.

[Scurvy Cur]

Divine Champion still has at least 2 good builds I wouldnt want to see buffed. These builds are 3 pal / 7 knight / 20 cot, and 7 pal 7 wm 16 cot.

Neither build is good.

[Kythana]

Played one a long time ago. The thematic concept was a Paladin without spells, holy warrior without innate magic, ect.

Looking at it currently, I have a few thoughts.

Since Divine Champion is really applicable to any god and alignment, I'd like to see it not be pigeonholed into taking BG/Pal/Lib. Give it all the features of other divine dips. Maybe remove the second level feat for balance.

Synergy with other classes, similar to Warpriest and AA. Possibly Divine Wrath level scaling for other martial classes(Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, ect)? I'd be a little wary of adding scaling for the other divine classes though, as Paladin and Blackguard already seem fairly strong, especially Paladin.

Although, there already is a very weird interaction for Paladin and DC synergy, so maybe rework and expand on this.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Holy_Sword

The biggest pain point I see however is no divine synergy. And even if it had synergy, it would still be a two round windup(divine might + shield, divine wrath.) The divine martial action economy already is pretty annoying, and I'd like to see all the divine actions for DC bundled together, or wrath being a free instant action. Maybe require feat investment?

Divine Wrath being a charge based system similar to smite, so a DC isn't just completely dead in the water when it's on CD.

The main thing I would be worried about is WM interactions.

[Kenji]

Something to keep in mind as the discussion goes on:
Divine Champion, as the name implies, is a champion of a deity and is considered a bridge between a mundane class and a Divine one. It is the black sheep of the divine family as it has no access to Spellbook or Turn Undead (no Div Might/Shield/Saves) as opposed to Paladin, Blackguard, Liberator, Cleric, Favored Soul, and/or Hexblade (Harbinger). This meant that it has no inherent mechanic that scales with Charisma except for Lay on Hands.

The introduction of further charisma scaling since the last rework attempts to reconnect that aspect of divinity and the class. It may not be arguably the best execution, but it's a start. Charisma scaling for Divine Champion will remain and is not to be removed entirely; a redesign is more likely.

Moving on from Charisma scaling and Divine Champion, the next objective to be discussed is the role and thematic design space Divine Champion serves among the "Divine Classes" listed above. As pointed out by others and bullet point listed here for concision:

1. Divine Champion has no alignment restriction (neither does Cleric or Favored Soul)
2. Divine Champion is to be designed similarly to a mundane class but with a hint of divinity
3. Divine Champion is a martial class that excels in martial prowess

To look at what Divine Champions should become, we should first look at what the other divine classes have:

• Paladin has turn undead, spellbook, and weapon buffs
• Blackguard has turn undead, weapon buffs, and a big summon
• Liberator has turn undead, roguish elements, and is on track to have an animal companion and some buffs
• Cleric has turn undead, spellbook, and summon
• Hexblade has dark blessing, spellbook, and weapon buffs

To build upon the existing Divine Champion design and further it, here's the design intent:

• Obtain higher feat density (already the case for pre-epic, may need adjustment post-epic) - the other divine classes are known to be notoriously feat-starved
• Be a capable smiter build (at least on par with the aforementioned divine classes)
• Their martial prowess should match or exceed that of the aforementioned divine classes, given the deficit in other regards (lack of summon, spellbook/wand QoL, or AC)

Divine Champions share with others in wind-up as one of the downsides the team believes should not be removed entirely. But alleviation of the wind-up can be considered.

Last but not least, Divine Wrath, in its current iteration, grants scaling Attack Bonus (AB), Damage (Dam), Damage Reduction (DR), Regeneration (Regen), and Saves:

Code: Select all

Level 	AB 	Dam 	DR 	Regen 	Saves
5 	+1 	+1 	5/+3 	+1 	+1
10 	+2 	+2 	5/+3 	+2 	+2
15 	+3 	+3 	10/+4 	+3 	+3
20 	+4 	+4 	15/+5 	+4 	+4 

If Divine Wrath is to become a free action, the concern is that it becomes too similar to that of a Barbarian's Rage. The cost of action will likely remain as is, but synergy with Divine Might to reduce wind-up at higher CoT levels is possible.

The team and I have had some changes for CoT in mind for a while, and this may fit the agenda above:

• Every first critical hit of the round reduces the cooldown of Divine Wrath by 6 seconds (doesn't scale with APR)
• Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement by 1
• Increase all Damage level by a flat +1 (instead of from +1 to +4, it becomes from +2 to +5)
• Remove regeneration and create a new passive feat (this new passive feat can be taken by other Divine Classes, as well)
• Provide a short-duration Physical DI (15%?) at the beginning of casting Divine Wrath (before activation, and lasts about 1 or 2 rounds after activation)
• Remove DR

New passive feat introduced to Divine Champion:

Divine Intervention
If the Divine Champion's HP is reduced below 20% max HP, this is automatically activated

• High Scaling Regen for 1 minute (+6/round to +18/round depending on CoT levels)
• Gains a damage shield (mechanical equivalent of Stoneskin/Premonition) of the following formula
  i. 5% max HP points + 2% for every level of CoT (ex. 15% for 5 CoT and 35% for 20 CoT - A 20 CoT with 400hp would gain 140 damage shield)
  ii. at +4 and +1 for every five levels of CoT (DR/+5 for 5 CoT and DR/+8 for 20 CoT)
  iii. cooldown of 1 hour
  iv. doesn't stack with Div Wrath DR

Note:
CoT is the abbreviation for Divine Champion so as not to confuse DC with spellcasting Difficulty Class. Also, CoT just looks badass.

[AstralUniverse]

Divine Champion still has at least 2 good builds I wouldnt want to see buffed. These builds are 3 pal / 7 knight / 20 cot, and 7 pal 7 wm 16 cot.

Neither build is good.

'Good' is relative. I think these builds are pretty decent if deep paladin in it's current state didnt exist, as I said. Compared to any other COT builds I can think of, these two builds are better.

[Kythana]

Divine Champions share with others in wind-up as one of the downsides the team believes should not be removed entirely. But alleviation of the wind-up can be considered.

Having a one round wind up is fine(wrath + div might/shield). Anything beyond that and it becomes extremely clunky and unfun to play. I really do hope alleviation is considered, if only to avoid the tedium that playing it is.

Every first critical hit of the round reduces the cooldown of Divine Wrath by 6 seconds (doesn't scale with APR)
Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement by 1
Increase all Damage level by a flat +1 (instead of from +1 to +4, it becomes from +2 to +5)

I like the idea of critical hits reducing the cooldown. The other changes here seem a decent start.

Divine Intervention
If the Divine Champion's HP is reduced below 20% max HP, this is automatically activated

High Scaling Regen for 1 minute (+6/round to +18/round depending on CoT levels)
Gains a damage shield (mechanical equivalent of Stoneskin/Premonition) of the following formula
i. 5% max HP points + 2% for every level of CoT (ex. 15% for 5 CoT and 35% for 20 CoT - A 20 CoT with 400hp would gain 140 damage shield)
ii. at +4 and +1 for every five levels of CoT (DR/+5 for 5 CoT and DR/+8 for 20 CoT)
iii. cooldown of 1 hour
iv. doesn't stack with Div Wrath DR

35% for 20 CoT? Shouldn't that be 5% + 2% x 20 = 45%?

Wait, so. This is going to be available for other divine classes too? So a standard 27/3 paladin could get: 5% + 2% x 27 = 59% max hp upon going below 20%? With DR/+9?

I'm not sure if overshadowing CoT's already weak state by giving other, better divine classes even more tools is a good idea.

This just makes me want to play BG/Paladin even more and CoT even less.

[Chloe123]

Don't like the idea of Removing Regeneration on Wrath and introduce a new PvP focused ability. This class is already mainly about pvp: high ab, smite friendly, undispellable buffs. Can we please keep some QoL stuff?

So please consider not to remove regeneration on wrath, who likes to carry 100+ healing kit with them...

[Scurvy Cur]

Divine Champion still has at least 2 good builds I wouldnt want to see buffed. These builds are 3 pal / 7 knight / 20 cot, and 7 pal 7 wm 16 cot.

Neither build is good.

'Good' is relative. I think these builds are pretty decent if deep paladin in it's current state didnt exist, as I said. Compared to any other COT builds I can think of, these two builds are better.

The specific problem is that pal/cot/wm is worse than both the deep bg and deep liberator wm, and pal/cot/knight is mostly notable for its ability to spend close to half its divine shield duration casting other stuff, and then falling flat as soon as wrath wears off.

Technically, you’re not wrong in saying that “good” is relative. The issue is that you’re using the wrong reference point in making that relative judgement. Properly, you should compare the builds to stuff that is actually playable/good, not to other CoT builds that also aren’t worth playing. Otherwise, you’re basically saying “the trash is good because it’s not on fire.”

[AstralUniverse]

the knight variant actually has the same wind up as other deep cot. The knight's Rallying Cry and Oath of Wrath are both instant actions. The rest isnt necessary to use at all for winding up. The meat of the knight variant is those two instant actions. About cot wm vs bg or lib + wm, I look at the stats (which I'm sure you have as well) and idk, is it really that much worse due to the 2 extra actions (which are both spellcasts who will realistically cost half round each)? It gets pretty decent stats imo, but perhaps I'm underestimating just how costly every second of winding up is in the current meta.

[RedGiant]

I do worry the crit idea will further incentivize weapon-master combinations. (The ready analogy here is actually Druid, where the curious decision to link animal companion functionality to hard-con bonuses has the function of incentivizing the already favorable con-Druid EDR builds.) Maybe tie it to hits period, like some of the Paladin abilities? This, then, doesn't favor certain class or weapon choices.

Moreover, to ride my hobby-horse, I do not see any change to requirements, which will keep build diversity at the low it is, nor do I see any real changes to the Wrath scaling, which hems you in on the other end. Simple fixes here would be to lower the BAB requirement to +4 or +5 and then stagger some of the Divine Wrath scaling like you did with fighter bonuses, rather than add or subtract from them.

Exempli gratia:
Lv__ AB__ Dam_ DR___ Reg__ Saves
15 __+3
16 ___________________________+4
17 _____________________+3
18 ____________15/+5
19 _______+4
20 __+4

I suppose its odd I'm arguing on one hand to make WM combos possible, yet on the other not to overly incentivize them, but I suppose therein lies the balance.

[Scurvy Cur]

the knight variant actually has the same wind up as other deep cot. The knight's Rallying Cry and Oath of Wrath are both instant actions. The rest isnt necessary to use at all for winding up. The meat of the knight variant is those two instant actions. About cot wm vs bg or lib + wm, I look at the stats (which I'm sure you have as well) and idk, is it really that much worse due to the 2 extra actions (which are both spellcasts who will realistically cost half round each)? It gets pretty decent stats imo, but perhaps I'm underestimating just how costly every second of winding up is in the current meta.

You're underestimating how costly every second a melee guy has to spend standing there and clicking buttons is.

I have played (and enjoyed) the 8/17/5 wm. I wouldn't be caught dead playing 7/7/16 pal/wm/cot.

This is also part of why the 3 paladin/10 knight/20 CoT build is not worth considering presently, unless you're dead set on playing knight to support other people (in which case there are better options). You click all those buttons, and you have exactly zero payoff for it. You go in, you do mediocre damage for a little while, but missing out on tumble AC means that you're pretty miserable in any trading situation, and because you're running a melee build that isn't a wm, you're going to be trading fairly often. Relying on div wrath compounds that, since you're hard committing to a 2 minute window, and, assuming that your routine is haste > divs > wrath, you're going to to have a 1 minute window to win the fight, followed by a 2 round stand still and re-buff period, and then 10 more rounds before you spend the next 3 minutes as a brycer that's missing 7 AC and grimoires for no good reason (your next refresh will eat any remaining wrath duration).

[AstralUniverse]

crystal clear air-tight argument

Consider me educated. Good math.

I guess we'll see what the team decides to do about it.

A mechanic that has scaling with how low % hp you are seems like a weird idea I dont know what I think about it.

Scaling cdr with crits - probably a bad idea - shoe horns CoT into a wm only niche.

If the problem is not having enough damage to pressure people in your 2minutes window, perhaps we need to offer CoT more damage that makes cot somehow worth playing as a none wm.

[Kenji]

Disregard the Divine Intervention part of the post. Lore-wise, it is a rare occurrence, and the team will plan a different feature for Divine Champion.

Preview on the first wave of coming changes:

1. Once per round, scoring a critical hit will...
   i. reduce the cooldown of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is inactive.
   ii. increase the duration of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is active.
   iii. X is dependent on the weapon's base threat range and critical multiplier
   • X = 5 for 20 x2 (fists, thrown weapons, clubs, etc)
   • X = 4 for 20 x3
   • X = 3 for 19-20 x2
   • X = 2 for 18-20 x2
2. Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement for passive AB by 1
3. Increase all Divine Wrath bonus damage tiers by a flat +1

More to come once we iron out the details. (More flavor and diversity)

[Irongron]

I'm not really at all well informed on the class, having never had inclination to play one in all my years.

Thematically it is rather woolly, and I always read it to be a class that grants better saves?

In any case we are so spoiled for choice now with charisma scaling divine classes.

From a more thematic approach (I'm not speaking to mechanics) it might be nice if it had extra abilities based upon the aspects of the deity? There are so many different gods it seems a lost opportunity that the class is so martial focused. Fitted fine when it was still a Champion of Torm, but is this really what a champion of Mask would look like?

[satan]

Disregard the Divine Intervention part of the post. Lore-wise, it is a rare occurrence, and the team will plan a different feature for Divine Champion.

Preview on the first wave of coming changes:

1. Once per round, scoring a critical hit will...
   i. reduce the cooldown of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is inactive.
   ii. increase the duration of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is active.
   iii. X is dependent on the weapon's base threat range and critical multiplier
   • X = 5 for 20 x2 (fists, thrown weapons, clubs, etc)
   • X = 4 for 20 x3
   • X = 3 for 19-20 x2
   • X = 2 for 18-20 x2
2. Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement for passive AB by 1
3. Increase all Divine Wrath bonus damage tiers by a flat +1

More to come once we iron out the details. (More flavor and diversity)

Div champion weapon master meta incoming